How do you (ab)use your SSL for mixing?

[Local 47]

Hi,

This is tthe first time I get to this forum on my own account (I peeked a few times at the studio where I was assisting...they had one of the computers on gearslutz pretty much all the time).
Anyway, I have been working on SSL's for a while now (on a VR, one or two times a year). So I've kinda developped my own way of working, which I'm sure all of you have. But I've been wondering for a while now how other people approach a rock (or whatever, but it's mainly rock that I work on, so...) mix...Where do you start? Do you start with the kick? Or with the vocal? Do you get into automation within the first hour, or do you rather wait until you have a decent overall balance?What kind of automation do you use: VCA, or Ultimation? Motors on or off? Do you always start 'updating mixes' in Trim or AT mode? Do you patch your outboard gear on the way from the multitrack to the console or as an insert?
I suppose many of you have been confronted with hot levels...either hot by nature (hmm...that is: already on tape...:-).....), or hot because of the boatloads of compression you might use...So, do you start with the master fader 10dB down or do you bring it down as you end up with your back against the wall?
What format do you mix down to?
How much mastering do you think your mixes need? Meaning, do you end up with an already hot mix that's been eq'd on the stereo bus? Or do you leave all that up to the mastering engineer?


Best of luck,

Local 47

[nukmusic]

http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/
http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/
http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Local 47

Hi,

But I've been wondering for a while now how other people approach a rock (or whatever, but it's mainly rock that I work on, so...) mix...Where do you start? Do you start with the kick? Or with the vocal? Do you get into automation within the first hour, or do you rather wait until you have a decent overall balance?What kind of automation do you use: VCA, or Ultimation? Motors on or off? Do you always start 'updating mixes' in Trim or AT mode? Do you patch your outboard gear on the way from the multitrack to the console or as an insert?
I suppose many of you have been confronted with hot levels...either hot by nature (hmm...that is: already on tape...:-).....), or hot because of the boatloads of compression you might use...So, do you start with the master fader 10dB down or do you bring it down as you end up with your back against the wall?
What format do you mix down to?
How much mastering do you think your mixes need? Meaning, do you end up with an already hot mix that's been eq'd on the stereo bus? Or do you leave all that up to the mastering engineer?



Local 47

All the above and yes.

Except patching the outboard on inserts.

I've always done it off the multitrack(15 years) and will continue to do so.

And my master fader is usually near the top and will work slowly backwards as the mix builds.

At some point(towards the end) i will push it up a little to see how much "wow factor" i can squeeze out of the mixbuss compressor without peaking too crazily on tape or digital(whatever the mixdown medium is).

[Winey]

I'm not an expert on SSL's, but I bring down the volume in PT on the way to the console, a big no-no to some people.
It's always too hot hitting the front end of the console, and it sounds way better to me to just bring it down in PT rather than the trims on the SSL.
If you hit the compressor too hard then bring down faders your whole mix will change radically, so catch it early if you can. I learned a big lesson on that one.
I'd rather do automation on the computer and not touch that archaic automation on the early SSL consoles. It can throw off the outboard that way though.

[Redsandblu]

Originally Posted by Winey

I'm not an expert on SSL's, but I bring down the volume in PT on the way to the console, a big no-no to some people.
It's always too hot hitting the front end of the console, and it sounds way better to me to just bring it down in PT rather than the trims on the SSL.
If you hit the compressor too hard then bring down faders your whole mix will change radically, so catch it early if you can. I learned a big lesson on that one.
I'd rather do automation on the computer and not touch that archaic automation on the early SSL consoles. It can throw off the outboard that way though.

Backing off the master fader shouldn't be a big deal since all your stereo bus processing happens before the MF.
And bringing down the faders on the SSL can be a bit tricky too: gotta take care not to bring down FX returns, and if you do subgrouping or 'floating' channels you shouldn't bring those down either as they serve as 'sends'.
I really dig the automation on the G+ though. Although I prefer Neve's flying faders for going back to previous moves you made. But other than that, it's all SSL for me.

All The Best,

Redsandblu@The Alamo

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Redsandblu

Backing off the master fader shouldn't be a big deal since all your stereo bus processing happens before the MF.

Redsandblu@The Alamo

This is only a problem on a 9000J.

The 9000J when the master fader is not fully to the top has the signal going through its master VCA.

2 very different sonic signatures pre VCA and post VCA.

[Local 47]

Originally Posted by Redsandblu

I mix down to Sadie DSD8, Tascam DV-RA1000 and 1/2" (if I have a good one at hand).

Redsandblu, how do you like the DV-RA 1000?How do you use it?

[audioez]

wow, the energy you used in that post could've yielded a ten song album, well not really but, seems like a lot to think about. How about just listening to the track with faders up and some pans. once, maybe twice??? then go for it!

" The master plan is, there is no master plan" dave matthews, from a rolling stone interview a couple years back.

As for your comments on master fader levels, If you're using a VR, some would say keeping the master fader down would advisable.



http://www.ezraudio.com

[Redsandblu]

Originally Posted by Local 47

Redsandblu, how do you like the DV-RA 1000?How do you use it?

It's okay but that's about it. I only use it for listening copies for the band or for playing CD's (going through the HEDD for DA). Problem is it gets stuck with a whole bunch of eenhanced CD's. Not what you'd expect given the fact that it's supposed to play nearly every format;even vinyl.

[raal]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

This is only a problem on a 9000J.

The 9000J when the master fader is not fully to the top has the signal going through its master VCA.

2 very different sonic signatures pre VCA and post VCA.

i would imagine... how about with a G+, same deal? i assume thats not rue with a K? when auditioned a G+ i liked the sound alot - but didn't try automation/recall, etc. -- so my other question: are TR and VCA trims/Ultimation a bear to learn or relatively simple? thanks thrill.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by raal

i would imagine... how about with a G+, same deal? i assume thats not rue with a K? when auditioned a G+ i liked the sound alot - but didn't try automation/recall, etc. -- so my other question: are TR and VCA trims/Ultimation a bear to learn or relatively simple? thanks thrill.

Going through the VCA on the master is true on all SSL's.

Unless you do it pre VCA and bypass the master fader altogether(which is what is do), which cleans up the final mix tremendously.

The trick is then how to get into famous mixbuss SSL compressor without going through the master fader?

When i mix on SSL's i still do most of the tape/mult returns on the small faders and leave the large faders for effects returns.

I just try to avoid as many of the VCA's as i can if possible.

Basically point A to point B with nothing in between.

[jonnyclueless]

The SSL compressor IS a VCA.

[Local 47]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Going through the VCA on the master is true on all SSL's.

Unless you do it pre VCA and bypass the master fader altogether(which is what is do), which cleans up the final mix tremendously.

The trick is then how to get into famous mixbuss SSL compressor without going through the master fader?

When i mix on SSL's i still do most of the tape/mult returns on the small faders and leave the large faders for effects returns.

I just try to avoid as many of the VCA's as i can if possible.

Basically point A to point B with nothing in between.

Why would you not use the large faders? For the VCA's? Then how do you use fader automation? Isn't it quite a bit easier to mix on the large faders close to you? Just wondering...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by jonnyclueless

The SSL compressor IS a VCA.

So are the one's in the channels.

I only use the mix buss compressor anyway on a drum sub or the ocassional piano.

If i need one on the mixbuss i use the outboard SSL stereo comp.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Local 47

Why would you not use the large faders? For the VCA's? Then how do you use fader automation? Isn't it quite a bit easier to mix on the large faders close to you? Just wondering...

The smaller faders don't go through the channel VCA's so its a shorter & cleaner path to the mixbuss.

If i need to do some fader rides than i will switch to the bottomn faders or ride the smaller one manually.

Mostly what i've done the last few years is do most of the automation in PT and anything outside on the fly i will do it on the console.

[aidyhall]

Local 47, thrillfactor's way of mixing on an SSL is pretty esoteric. What with bypassing everything, you might as well just use a summing box. None of the big-name engineers I learnt from went to as much trouble as thrillfactor, but hey, if it makes a difference to you, then great.

The only elaborate thing I do is usually mixing in Record/VCA To Mon mode on the older E-series consoles, so you bypass the E line amps, which are pretty bad. Of course, that limits your pre/post EQ dynamics options, since you're mixing then in the monitor path, and you can only put the dynamics into the chain with the MON button, not the CH IN and CH OUT buttons. I don't bother if I'm working on a G, J or K, as the line amps are fine.

If I'm mixing on a console, the point is generally to use the sound of the console itself, mix buss and all. I generally obey basic engineering principles, like leave enough headroom on the mix buss so you're not slamming everything, unless you want to! So go ahead and turn down those line gains. It will make the threshold pots on the dynamics much more usable if they have a signal level coming in that is in the range they were designed to operate in. Not to mention being able to use the EQ to boost stuff without clipping the channel.

The great thing about the SSL (and Neve's), after the sonics, is the automation! Being able to ride stuff correctively in ProTools before it hits the console, and then using the faders to do creative rides post any added EQ and compression, is a very powerful tool. Have fun!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by aidyhall

Local 47, thrillfactor's way of mixing on an SSL is pretty esoteric. What with bypassing everything, you might as well just use a summing box. None of the big-name engineers I learnt from went to as much trouble as thrillfactor, but hey, if it makes a difference to you, then great.

The only elaborate thing I do is usually mixing in Record/VCA To Mon mode on the older E-series consoles, so you bypass the E line amps, which are pretty bad. Of course, that limits your pre/post EQ dynamics options, since you're mixing then in the monitor path, and you can only put the dynamics into the chain with the MON button, not the CH IN and CH OUT buttons. I don't bother if I'm working on a G, J or K, as the line amps are fine.

If I'm mixing on a console, the point is generally to use the sound of the console itself, mix buss and all. I generally obey basic engineering principles, like leave enough headroom on the mix buss so you're not slamming everything, unless you want to! So go ahead and turn down those line gains. It will make the threshold pots on the dynamics much more usable if they have a signal level coming in that is in the range they were designed to operate in. Not to mention being able to use the EQ to boost stuff without clipping the channel.

The great thing about the SSL (and Neve's), after the sonics, is the automation! Being able to ride stuff correctively in ProTools before it hits the console, and then using the faders to do creative rides post any added EQ and compression, is a very powerful tool. Have fun!

I never said i didn't like the sound of the console, i just don't care for having my sound being degraded by going through unnecessary things(like going through the VCA's twice).

Again to each his own.

[nukmusic]

So what about effects send and returns? Say you need to send lead and BKG Vox to an effect. Are the console's channel effects buses/returns used to send/return signals to/from reverbs, delays, etc Stereo or Mono sends/returns? PFL or AFL? How do you have it patched in?

I've seen folks take up console channels for this? Why?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

I've seen folks take up console channels for this? Why?

So you can automate the sends and returns and or EQ the sends and returns.


On the 9000 is not as much of an issue since just about everything is automatable.

[nukmusic]

Lol..............Thought bout that, but kinda ruled it out. I'm spoiled with Protools and other DAW's automation heaven.

Now that we got the return out of the way. Thrill how would the signal be sent to the effects? or (knowing that answer, should i say) how would you route the signal? channel's direct out? insert?, EFX send? I guess I'm trying to see the advantages or one over the other.


P.S. did i mention i love clicking "UNDO" thumbsup thumbsup I've accidentlt hit the record button on a few good takes on analog reel in my time.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

Lol..............Thought bout that, but kinda ruled it out. I'm spoiled with Protools and other DAW's automation heaven.

Now that we got the return out of the way. Thrill how would the signal be sent to the effects? or (knowing that answer, should i say) how would you route the signal? channel's direct out? insert?, EFX send? I guess I'm trying to see the advantages or one over the other.


P.S. did i mention i love clicking "UNDO" thumbsup thumbsup I've accidentlt hit the record button on a few good takes on analog reel in my time.

Yes sometimes people are spoiled by the whole "PT mix" experience.

How do you send the signals?

Depends on which console you are working on.

Some SSL's only have 6 auxes others have 10-12.

Basically you use whatever is not being used.

I use mainly auxes and the groups.

Also i split the sends on the parallels and squeeze out a couple of more sends.

For returns i use the both the channels and effect returns.

Basically i use everything.

I only use the inserts though when i want to bypass something.

I don't use them in the traditional sense for lets say dynamics.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by aidyhall

...thrillfactor's way of mixing on an SSL is pretty esoteric. What with bypassing everything, you might as well just use a summing box...

I generally obey basic engineering principles, like leave enough headroom on the mix buss so you're not slamming everything, unless you want to!

i like what you have to say, i'd just massage one point: thrillfactor's way of mixing (choosing the shortest, cleanest possible path) IS a basic engineering principle. or at least, it used to be.

i'm also not convinced it's esoteric; there are no shortage of cats who love ssl's but aren't too crazy about the sound of the vca's. they may not be the majority, but they're out there.

but you nailed when you said 'have fun'!


gregoire
del ubik

[jonnyclueless]

I can never decide on motors on or off. It always sounds different and I can't pinpoint what the difference is other thn it is difference/ SO I A/B each song and pick which seems to work better for it. But I do know a lot of people who intentionally turn off the motors with the reasoning that everything digital is so clean these days that they want the VCAs to dirty things up. Makes sense I guess.

Then there's the whole issue of slaving the SSL to prot tools vs the other way around. The notion being that PT as master means a more stable clock vs it having to chase the consoles time code. I nevernoticed a noticvable difference, but never really did any kind of extensive A/Bing.

I personaly don't move the master fader and keep it up to avoid the VCA (nmore so for the unity gain than for sound I guess). I like tracks to hit the input of the console just the right way since to me that's the biggest sound factor. With that done the levels usualy balance out just right on the mixbus with the fader at 0. But the PT calibraion is a big factor in that. And in the times when it does push to hard(one of those mixes where you bring a few thing up and eventually notice you brought EVERYTHING up) I will just turn on automation, trim everything (but returns) down a db or two until its sitting right.

It's funny though, I have seen so many other people do things so many different ways and they all sound great even though each swares their way is best. I guess it's the old 'what ever works for each person' deal.

[Ambroise]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

All the above and yes.

Except patching the outboard on inserts.

I've always done it off the multitrack(15 years) and will continue to do so.

Can you explain the reason you do that ?

[audioez]

well if this helps the two or three times you use a VR... Use the pan pots,
and if you're on an ssl, well jolly me timbres!!!

Listen to the song once or twice, then mix away...Don't micro manage or let your clients get in the way, they'll usually figure this out by the 3-4 mix of the day, and as always have fun.

[The Alamo]

Originally Posted by jonnyclueless

Then there's the whole issue of slaving the SSL to prot tools vs the other way around. The notion being that PT as master means a more stable clock vs it having to chase the consoles time code. I nevernoticed a noticvable difference, but never really did any kind of extensive A/Bing.

The console I mix on (G+) has the ZX card installed. Makes it a breeze to operate PT transport controls from the center section of the console.

Originally Posted by jonnyclueless

And in the times when it does push to hard(one of those mixes where you bring a few thing up and eventually notice you brought EVERYTHING up) I will just turn on automation, trim everything (but returns) down a db or two until its sitting right.

That's a tough one I believe: cause even when you bring down everything but the returns, you might still end up changing compressor sends, subgroups... when you have, say, your individual drums going to a subgroup instead of to the stereo bus (FLOATED), then you will dramatically change what's going to the subgroup comp by altering thee fader levels. Then again, couldn't work without subgroups either

(Remember) The Alamo

[theother]

Originally Posted by The Alamo

The console I mix on (G+) has the ZX card installed. Makes it a breeze to operate PT transport controls from the center section of the console.

That's a tough one I believe: cause even when you bring down everything but the returns, you might still end up changing compressor sends, subgroups... when you have, say, your individual drums going to a subgroup instead of to the stereo bus (FLOATED), then you will dramatically change what's going to the subgroup comp by altering thee fader levels. Then again, couldn't work without subgroups either

(Remember) The Alamo

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the ZX card force PT to run in slave mode?

I use the Alan Smart 2Tools and with that PT is always master, yet you can use the transport controls and Record buttons on the SSL and the desk also follows when you operate PT (or any other DAW, I use Cubase SX). The DAw always remains in Master mode.

[jonnyclueless]

Originally Posted by The Alamo

The console I mix on (G+) has the ZX card installed. Makes it a breeze to operate PT transport controls from the center section of the console.

That's a tough one I believe: cause even when you bring down everything but the returns, you might still end up changing compressor sends, subgroups... when you have, say, your individual drums going to a subgroup instead of to the stereo bus (FLOATED), then you will dramatically change what's going to the subgroup comp by altering thee fader levels. Then again, couldn't work without subgroups either

(Remember) The Alamo

For the J you just need Digi's Machine control package to allow serial control of the transport. Somehow they justify it as a $750 expense (!!).

AS for the trimming, it's a non issue for me. I don't have any compression at this point, but if there are any parallel channels going on at that point chances are they are hitting the compressors too hard.

[paultools]

Why not just print SMPTE to a PT track and run that into the SSL computer, and run PT as usual? You would lose the tach counter, but is that a big deal?

[aidyhall]

Originally Posted by u b i k

i like what you have to say, i'd just massage one point: thrillfactor's way of mixing (choosing the shortest, cleanest possible path) IS a basic engineering principle. or at least, it used to be.

i'm also not convinced it's esoteric; there are no shortage of cats who love ssl's but aren't too crazy about the sound of the vca's. they may not be the majority, but they're out there.

but you nailed when you said 'have fun'!

gregoire
del ubik

I think the point I am trying to make is that a good mix should obviously be musical, and for myself and all the really great engineers I learnt from, that means lots of musical rides on the faders, post compression.

Corrective riding in ProTools is great, but once that is done, you do not want to be doing creative rides pre any dynamics you have inserted. So the VCA's become essential. I simply could not work on the non-automatable small faders. Working on an SSL, the sound should be slamming enough that the sonic signature of the VCA is irrelevant compared to the benefits of being able to automate your fader levels.

Balance is everything!