Might Sell My PMC IB1s.. what to replace them with??

[Blue May]

Hey,

I've owned a pair of PMC IB1s for around 6 months and am astounded by the accuracy of them especially in the bottom end.

I love them soo much... So it would probably surprise you to know i'm considering selling them


Basically i have a medium sized room. I have them on concrete pillars about 6feet back. I switch between them, a pair of NS10s and a little boom box

now, here is my problem. these things are dangerous.. they have definitely improved my mixes but the bass extends so far and cleanly down that they and the sound lacks any distortion.. so i find myself pushing them up and up.. because the sound feels so clean and doesn't sound loud like (a smaller speaker pushed loud) now some may say just turn it down but occasionally for creative reasons i like to listen back fairly loud...
in the long run i would love to keep these fro when i have a larger room and can set them back 10 feet or more. However i genuinely worry about my hearing in my current set up

So.. do i... A

Keep em...i'll be thankfull in the long rum when i move to a bigger room and for now i just need to be really careful.

or B

Sell em (make a profit cause i got them very cheap) and buy some smaller near / midfields...

.........IF B... what do i replace them with????

ProAc?
Barfoot?
Smaller PMCs?
ATCscm50

my room is 11ftWide15ftWide, treated professionally etc etc.
thanks...

[ssaudio]

Keep them and train your ears: Get an SPL meter and mark your monitor controller so you know exactly what level you are monitoring at; it only takes a short time to learn and adjust - you won't learn anything by selling them and you'll just make the same mistakes over and over again with a new set of boxes.

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by ssaudio

Keep them and train your ears: Get an SPL meter and mark your monitor controller so you know exactly what level you are monitoring at; it only takes a short time to learn and adjust - you won't learn anything by selling them and you'll just make the same mistakes over and over again with a new set of boxes.

I am aware of the level i'm monitoring at.. its more the level that gives me the feeling i want to feel (which on the PMCs is dangerously loud). i used to have bm15s that when felt loud at lower volumes than the PMCs if you catch my drift (but obviously nowhere near as detailed).

its worth mentioning that if i was to sell the pmc's and replace them with a pair of active monitors i would have a chord SPA1032 to sell too... which would probably give me about enough to buy some barefoots?

[DRC]

Originally Posted by Blue May

Hey,

I've owned a pair of PMC IB1s for around 6 months and am astounded by the accuracy of them especially in the bottom end.

I love them soo much... So it would probably surprise you to know i'm considering selling them


Basically i have a medium sized room. I have them on concrete pillars about 6feet back. I switch between them, a pair of NS10s and a little boom box

now, here is my problem. these things are dangerous.. they have definitely improved my mixes but the bass extends so far and cleanly down that they and the sound lacks any distortion.. so i find myself pushing them up and up.. because the sound feels so clean and doesn't sound loud like (a smaller speaker pushed loud) now some may say just turn it down but occasionally for creative reasons i like to listen back fairly loud...
in the long run i would love to keep these fro when i have a larger room and can set them back 10 feet or more. However i genuinely worry about my hearing in my current set up

So.. do i... A

Keep em...i'll be thankfull in the long rum when i move to a bigger room and for now i just need to be really careful.

or B

Sell em (make a profit cause i got them very cheap) and buy some smaller near / midfields...

.........IF B... what do i replace them with????

ProAc?
Barfoot?
Smaller PMCs?
ATCscm50

my room is 11ftWide15ftWide, treated professionally etc etc.
thanks...

As often as I have moved in the past 3 years I would say hold on to them until you get the space you want. I have a pair as well and they are a bit too much for my room too. I don't monitor too loud but the bottom end can get a little hairy here. Anyone who demos these in a great sounding room will want them. I personally wouldn't want a pair of actives over the set up you have. I wish I had a Pass Labs or a Chord to drive them with (not that the Brystons are lacking). I would keep them. I will eventually have to sell mine to pay off some debt but if you aren't in the same boat you should hang on to them.

Good luck.

[Emanuel23]

Those are great speakers B.M.,
but your room is too small indeed.
Man... though decision!

A sidenote;
I did catch your mix of "The Corpse" the other day.
I'm betting those drums rock on the PMC's,
but on my system, they don't work that well.
(good mix though, kudos anyway!)
In my experience with IB1's; you really have to know how you use them.
And they do need a good room, and all that jazz...
Point I wanna make is; you might be off with a smaller monitor inbetween.
So IMO best thing is to keep them, and add a monitor inbetween IB1S and the NS10.

Good luck, keep us posted!

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by DRC

As often as I have moved in the past 3 years I would say hold on to them until you get the space you want. I have a pair as well and they are a bit too much for my room too. I don't monitor too loud but the bottom end can get a little hairy here. Anyone who demos these in a great sounding room will want them. I personally wouldn't want a pair of actives over the set up you have. I wish I had a Pass Labs or a Chord to drive them with (not that the Brystons are lacking). I would keep them. I will eventually have to sell mine to pay off some debt but if you aren't in the same boat you should hang on to them.

Good luck.

Yeah.. This is what my slut side is saying.. Keep the chord / ib1 rig.. its pretty much as good as it gets.

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by Emanuel23

Those are great speakers B.M.,
but your room is too small indeed.
Man... though decision!

A sidenote;
I did catch your mix of "The Corpse" the other day.
I'm betting those drums rock on the PMC's,
but on my system, they don't work that well.
(good mix though, kudos anyway!)
In my experience with IB1's; you really have to know how you use them.
And they do need a good room, and all that jazz...
Point I wanna make is; you might be off with a smaller monitor inbetween.
So IMO best thing is to keep them, and add a monitor inbetween IB1S and the NS10.

Good luck, keep us posted!

Thanks, actually that songs seems to sound best on the NS10s and the Boombox

Yeah this is what the practical side of me is telling me to do.. The NS10s are great for that in your face hyped mid range no top no bottom thing.. but i need something with similar accuracy to the PMCs (albeit with a lesser extended bottom)

Any ideas what could be good contenders to try.. Whatever happens i am going to get a vendor to lend me two or three pairs to try next to my PMCs... you never know i might not sell the PMCs if i find something under £1k that is useful.

Reading the michael brauer interview i am intrigued to try the ProAcs.. (shame they done come bundled with his ears though..)
Also i could probably swap out the pmc/chord rig for a barefoot rig.. Opinions please!!

thanks

[dubrichie]

i must say, i'm a bit confused by your post.

you seem to say that you don't like the headroom of the IB1, that it doesn't distort when played very loud, that you miss the distortion of smaller speakers when played at such volumes.

am i crazy, or are you crazy?!

is that headroom not to be desired? does it not allow you to hear all the detail in your mixes at high volumes WITHOUT distortion from the speakers messing it up?

i'm sorry, but i just don't catch your drift man!

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by dubrichie

i must say, i'm a bit confused by your post.

you seem to say that you don't like the headroom of the IB1, that it doesn't distort when played very loud, that you miss the distortion of smaller speakers when played at such volumes.

am i crazy, or are you crazy?!

is that headroom not to be desired? does it not allow you to hear all the detail in your mixes at high volumes WITHOUT distortion from the speakers messing it up?

i'm sorry, but i just don't catch your drift man!

I totally understand your confusion.. I'm confused myself.

Its not that i don't like the head room.. I love it.. they are the best speaker i've used...

However because they are so clean and powerful it means when i play them loud because of all the extra energy generated below say 60hz that most monitors can't really handle.. I feel it is damaging my hearing.. And i know the best advice is to not turn them up that loud but i need from time to time to listen at that level when writing or recording and when listening back to mixes after a prolonged period of quiet listening.

Am i making any sense?? its hard to explain.

[dubrichie]

i think i get ya.

you're afraid that the low frequency energy produced when you turn them up loud may damage your hearing, because of the small size of your room, correct?

in that case, i can suggest:

1) keep them and buy a pair of PMC TB2-SA which you can switch over to for loud listening.

2) sell them and buy a pair of PMC TB2-SA and a TLE-1S which you can switch OFF for loud listening.

i have a smaller control room than yours (heavily treated) and this is the 2.1 system that i use. i have never heard the larger PMC models in person, but, with the sub properly calibrated i am extremely happy with what i am hearing. if i want to take out the extra low frequency information i just have to flick a switch on my monitor controller.

[Blue May]

Yeah a smaller system may be better for my room.

what i'm basically trying to say is that there is a level that i perceive as 'Loud / Pumping' it doesn't offer me much help mix wise but is good for getting excited about things.. however the truth is that this is not actually based on DB volume rather based on a feeling.. and to get that feeling from these monsters requires some serious volume.. however a smaller system where the bass is not so extended will give me that loud feeling at a safer overall volume.. of course i will be sacrificing the amazing detail at like 30hz but truthfully maybe less than 1& of the record buying public has anything that can reproduce those frequencies so it only really comes into play when you are trying to reduce 'sonic mass' when limiting and mastering.

I think this whole loudness hang up i have is largely down to the mid range... once i feel that snare punch me in the face.. thats when i'm smiling!!

[Reptil]

keep those and get a set of cheap small hifi speakers & amp that you can use to know how it sounds for ppl. at home.
tape some point of the volume knob, using a reference cd, for "normal" loudness and a piece of tape for "loud". don't go above these. you will notice that when you do, you don't really need it.

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by Blue May

However because they are so clean and powerful it means when i play them loud because of all the extra energy generated below say 60hz that most monitors can't really handle.. I feel it is damaging my hearing.. And i know the best advice is to not turn them up that loud but i need from time to time to listen at that level when writing or recording and when listening back to mixes after a prolonged period of quiet listening.

Am i making any sense?? its hard to explain.

You're making total sense. And this is a valid concern. I'm not sure if the effect is actually physiological or if it's learned. There are probably papers written about it. But our ears/brains definitely associate loudness with distortion. And when you're listening to monitors with very low distortion, it's easier to raise the level to quite high SPLs without fully realizing how loud it is. So you do have to be careful about your hearing.

In my experience, however, wider dynamic, lower distortion speakers still translate much better to many more systems. If your going for excitement, then lower distortion speakers are going to force you to work a little harder to build that excitement into your mix/composition. Sure, you can get speakers that will pump with whatever you put into them. And that may be fine for making yourself happy. But if your music is intended for the wider world, then I think a false sense of security is not what you want.

In any case, if you're still considering option B, then you should probably take my name off the list. The MM27 may be physically small, but it performs like a much bigger speaker with very low distortion and wide dynamic range. How about an option C? Keep your PMCs and get a 2nd pair of smaller nearfields to test the "pump" factor from time to time?

Thomas

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by barefoot

You're making total sense. And this is a valid concern. I'm not sure if the effect is actually physiological or if it's learned. There are probably papers written about it. But our ears/brains definitely associate loudness with distortion. And when you're listening to monitors with very low distortion, it's easier to raise the level to quite high SPLs without fully realizing how loud it is. So you do have to be careful about your hearing.

In my experience, however, wider dynamic, lower distortion speakers still translate much better to many more systems. If your going for excitement, then lower distortion speakers are going to force you to work a little harder to build that excitement into your mix/composition. Sure, can get speakers that will pump with whatever you put into them. And that may be fine for making yourself happy. But if your music is intended for the wider world, then I think a false sense of security is not what you want.

If you're still considering option B, then you should probably take my name off the list. The MM27 may be physically small, but it performs like a much bigger speaker with very low distortion and wide dynamic range. How about an option C? Keep your PMCs and get a 2nd pair of smaller nearfields to test the "pump" factor from time to time.

Thomas

Hey,

thanks for the reply. Yes i do think it has a lot to do with distortion.. but speakers that distort is not what i'm looking for. I need a full range low distortion speaker that is the sizably suited to my current room. after all at the desirable volume i like on the IB1s they are far from distorting. i'm sure they could go twice as loud comfortably.

I'm sorry if it seemed like i was implying that Barefoots or ProAcs or any similar were going to distort more and have less of a range.. I was more thinking as they are smaller boxes using smaller drivers they may give me that feeling at a more sensible volume.

I like the sound of speakers at about 65-80% of maximum capability i think thats got more to do with it than actually wanting to hear distortion.

You are totally right about full range speakers giving better results on a larger range of systems.. and you definitely have to work harder to get them sounding good.

On a side note.. Do you have any demo pairs of barefoots in London or the UK? It interests me that they can potentially seem like near-fields and mains. and the all the positive feedback on this forum has me interested.

I may get a few different sets in my room and realize i'm totally wrong and that i just need to be more aware of the level i'm listening at. or i may find another set that brings something completely new. i may keep all of them.. who knows!!

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by dubrichie

i think i get ya.
1) keep them and buy a pair of PMC TB2-SA which you can switch over to for loud listening..

thumbsup

[DanDan]

What Level are we talking about here? Could you measure it during an actual mixing session? I could give you an opinion about possible ear damage then. Let me say though, I find it extremely unlikely that the bottom end of these speakers could be dangersous. It would take an enormous amount of bass energy to hurt and damage. The top is another matter altogether. I had IB1's here for a long trial. My room was light on the Bass end at the time. I found the top end of the IB1's far too much at close range. These speakers are not meant to be nearfields. They are meant to be over your head and 12 feet away, I reckon. I cannot imagine how you could run these at a dangerous level in a small room. The top would remove your skin! I sent my IB1's back and bought ADAM S3A's. They do exactly what everyone says. They translate. I do miss the PMC's for the fun, the extreme detail and above all else the best bass I have ever heard. If the top end is not bothering you in your room, keep them. Have your hearing checked by a professional, one who realises the difference between speech and music!
Then keep a periodic check on your hearing using these.
Hearing Test Products and Tinnitus Test Products

Best Regards, Dan FitzGerald AMIOA
Sound Sound - Homepage

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by Blue May

Hey,
thanks for the reply. Yes i do think it has a lot to do with distortion.. but speakers that distort is not what i'm looking for. I need a full range low distortion speaker that is the sizably suited to my current room. after all at the desirable volume i like on the IB1s they are far from distorting. i'm sure they could go twice as loud comfortably.

I'm sorry if it seemed like i was implying that Barefoots or ProAcs or any similar were going to distort more and have less of a range.. I was more thinking as they are smaller boxes using smaller drivers they may give me that feeling at a more sensible volume.

I like the sound of speakers at about 65-80% of maximum capability i think thats got more to do with it than actually wanting to hear distortion.

You are totally right about full range speakers giving better results on a larger range of systems.. and you definitely have to work harder to get them sounding good.

I don't take any offense whatsoever. It's perfectly reasonable to say that smaller speakers have less dynamic range and higher distortion at higher SPLs. It's simply a matter of physics. I was just pointing out that MM27 doesn't function like most small speakers. It has a lot of power and a lot of driver surface area crammed into a small cabinet. But compared to the MiniMain12, it too has less dynamic range and higher distortion at higher SPLs. It's all relative.

It might not seam so, but this feeling you're describing is definitely a distortion effect. Added harmonic distortion and dynamic compression do indeed give speakers the impression of being louder at lower SPLs. And all things being equal, smaller speakers will inevitably distort more at lower volume levels than larger speakers of equal quality. They also create a very soft knee, low threshold dynamic compression effect; which again is just another form of distortion. Furthermore, running a speaker at 65-80% of its maximum capability is also a recipe for higher distortion. Now, saying someone "wants" to hear more distortion in his or her monitoring system may have a negative connotation. But I don't put such a value judgment on it at all. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want this as an occasional reference. I just don't think it's desirable as your main reference.

Originally Posted by Blue May

On a side note.. Do you have any demo pairs of barefoots in London or the UK? It interests me that they can potentially seem like near-fields and mains. and the all the positive feedback on this forum has me interested.

I may get a few different sets in my room and realize i'm totally wrong and that i just need to be more aware of the level i'm listening at. or i may find another set that brings something completely new. i may keep all of them.. who knows!!

There are pairs in London studios, but no floaters as far as I'm aware. Ryan at Vintage King can help you setup a demo.

Hope this helps!
Thomas

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by DanDan

What Level are we talking about here? Could you measure it during an actual mixing session? I could give you an opinion about possible ear damage then. Let me say though, I find it extremely unlikely that the bottom end of these speakers could be dangersous. It would take an enormous amount of bass energy to hurt and damage. The top is another matter altogether. I had IB1's here for a long trial. My room was light on the Bass end at the time. I found the top end of the IB1's far too much at close range. These speakers are not meant to be nearfields. They are meant to be over your head and 12 feet away, I reckon. I cannot imagine how you could run these at a dangerous level in a small room. The top would remove your skin! I sent my IB1's back and bought ADAM S3A's. They do exactly what everyone says. They translate. I do miss the PMC's for the fun, the extreme detail and above all else the best bass I have ever heard. If the top end is not bothering you in your room, keep them. Have your hearing checked by a professional, one who realises the difference between speech and music!
Then keep a periodic check on your hearing using these.
Hearing Test Products and Tinnitus Test Products

Best Regards, Dan FitzGerald AMIOA
Sound Sound - Homepage

Very very interesting points!
Your right.. i definitely find the top end way more present in the PMCs than say my NS10s (which of course one would expect) but maybe it is unnaturally loud due to the proximity of the speakers. they're not set up as nearfields however maybe they are still too close.. i have them set up on concrete blocks in a 7ft triangle from my listening position. with the tweeter 11 degrees(ish) above my ears. Maybe it is rather the to end that is bothering me.
One of the main reasons i want to keep them is for when i have the space to set them up as you recommended 12 feet away.
thanks for your advice.. the whole hearing thing is probably me just being neurotic.

[Blue May]

Originally Posted by barefoot

I don't take any offense whatsoever. It's perfectly reasonable to say that smaller speakers have less dynamic range and higher distortion at higher SPLs. It's simply a matter of physics. I was just pointing out that MM27 doesn't function like most small speakers. It has a lot of power and a lot of driver surface area crammed into a small cabinet. But compared to the MiniMain12, it too has less dynamic range and higher distortion at higher SPLs. It's all relative.

It might not seam so, but this feeling you're describing is definitely a distortion effect. Added harmonic distortion and dynamic compression do indeed give speakers the impression of being louder at lower SPLs. And all things being equal, smaller speakers will inevitably distort more at lower volume levels than larger speakers of equal quality. They also create a very soft knee, low threshold dynamic compression effect; which again is just another form of distortion. Furthermore, running a speaker at 65-80% of its maximum capability is also a recipe for higher distortion. Now, saying someone "wants" to hear more distortion in his or her monitoring system may have a negative connotation. But I don't put such a value judgment on it at all. I think it's perfectly reasonable to want this as an occasional reference. I just don't think it's desirable as your main reference.


There are pairs in London studios, but no floaters as far as I'm aware. Ryan at Vintage King can help you setup a demo.

Hope this helps!
Thomas

thanks, it does help.

I'm in complete agreement that 65-80% is not good for primary listening.. tracking in control room and listening back after mixing quietly is generally when i like to hear that.

eager to hear you speakers.. might try and set something up when i'm in New York next month.

thanks again.

[desotoslo]

Seems like it would make sense to stay within the PMC family? (you are already familiar with the sonic signature, yea?)

How about PMC TB2s+ with a money power amp, like Bryston 4b SST or a Bel Canto eVo 200.2 ?

I find the TB2s+ to go pretty darn low. They do pump out below 40hz, but it's less. They certainly spec to 40. In a perfect world, I could use another 5-10 Hz.

FWIW. ie, then again, wtf do I know ..

[mosrite]

As good as the smaller PMC's are, they are not in the same league as your IB1's. Only consider the smaller PMC's as an alternative reference monitor, not a replacement. Going from IB1's to TB2's will be very upsetting for you...

[nosebleedaudio]

I studio I built for a client has those in a 14.5' by 18' room, wish it was 2 foot deeper...
They sound fantastic but the guy keeps making his mixes too bass heavy, same problem as you, bass is VERY clean and tight...
You can truly hear/feel 25Hz in that room...

[dubrichie]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

I studio I built for a client has those in a 14.5' by 18' room, wish it was 2 foot deeper...
They sound fantastic but the guy keeps making his mixes too bass heavy, same problem as you, bass is VERY clean and tight...
You can truly hear/feel 25Hz in that room...

some tuned (helmoltz) resonator bass trapping could do wonders for him.

[soundseeker]

hmmm

Blue, do you fancy swapping for a pair of pmc db1's with rotel rc972 pre and 2 separate 970bx units for left and right power. its my fave small room set-up. and i could use that excess bass of yours for my new room in april.

or we could swap rooms!!!!!!!!!

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by dubrichie

some tuned (helmoltz) resonator bass trapping could do wonders for him.

Room already has bass traps, that's not the problem...