Neve V3 - nice desk?

[octatonic]

Hi all,

The studio I have rented a room in has a Neve V3 like the one on this page:

http://www.audio-toyshop.co.uk/Speci.../neve%20v3.htm

I assume they are great to work with- has anyone got any direct experience with this model and any issues to look out for?

JR

[Lindell]

The V3 is a great sounding desk. I don´t have any hands on experience with the V3, but a friend of mine has one and his stuff sounds great.
£37k sounds like a fair price for that 48 channel one. The Flying Faders alone is $1000 A PIECE! Also set aside some maintenance funds for the console. The caps, switches and meters needs replacing quete frequently.
A full re-cap for a 48ch V3 is around £15-20k.

Cheers,
Lindell

[Jim Williams]

A different take here. Besides the disasterous 81 series consoles, this is the worst sounding Neve desk. Very dark, very thick. No air. David Pope designed it after Rupert left. The reason for the "V" name is it was named after the head designer, DP. They couldn't call it the "Pope" for the real Vatican would not approve, so they shortened it to "V".

Now you know the "Rest of the Story".

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[paultools]

I have a VX, but have worked on many V's.

There was a period of time when there was a popular lease package being offered:
A 60 input V and a Mitsubishi 32 track digital recorder. They were trying to create a format foothold. The V was intended to be Neve's "answer" to the SSL, and Mitsu was racing against Sony. The conventional wisdom at the time was that the V's sounded MUCH better than the SSL E's and G's. As a side thought, it's funny to me to hear people rave about the sound of mixing on an SSl instead of ITB, since everyone though they sounded so "horrible" at first... anyway, several studios in LA went for it, and thus MANY hit records were recorded on them. Westlake, Soundcastle, Rumbo, Enterprise, Hollywood Sound, Village, George Tobin, Amigo, to name a few that had V's. If you watch "Making the Band" you will see that P Diddy owns one. Jimmy Douglas is a big fan of them as well.

There are sweeter-sounding desks to be sure, but you can certainly make a great recording on a Neve V!

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Besides the disasterous 81 series consoles, this is the worst sounding Neve desk. Very dark, very thick. No air.

...and no life, and no reason to exist, and just an overall drag.

However, the V-1 and V-2 sucked even a bit worse than the V-3 and VR but for the most part, Mr. Williams has hit the nail squarely on the head.

One of my favorite George Massenburg quotes: "I never thought I'd ever work on a desk that sounded worse than an SSL until I sat down behind a Neve "V" series".

I once pulled two weeks worth of sessions out a room with a V-3 because the desk sounded like ass and I wouldn't work on the thing... fortunately the producer agreed with me and the studio had another room open without a "V series" POS sitting in the middle of it.

On the bright side... it does have the "N word" on the side...

Peace.

[Jim Williams]

If some of you have a hanckering for the sound this console produces, consider a Tascam 3500. I find it to be similar, sonically. It won't set you back $40k. If you have a V, consider the Mad Labs center section replacement to help clean up the mixes. Otherwise, yer on your own!

JIm Williams
Audio Upgrades

[robmix]

Man you guys are brutal. I don't own one, but I used to work at the Hit Factory back in the day and they had three VR's. The number of great sounding hit records that came out of there is astounding. They (Neve) must've done something right.

[Slipperman]

I did about 5 weeks solid on a VR about 2-3 months ago.

It was my first stint back on one in almost a decade.

It was fine.

It was what it was...

A sprawling collection of silicon, metal and plastic in a big box.

What they all are.

ALL of them.

ALL consoles.

After you stumble on that little revelation.... You either find a way to make it happen or you don't.

And for the record....


As usual....






I didn't.







But I ain't blaming the desk.







Nope.









It was the lighting.

And the coffee.... Terrible coffee. The worst. Undrinkable.

Old coffee was great. Stellar.

Old water was better too.

Not to mention the old filters and cups.

And don't get me started on the new stirrers.

HOHOHO.

Best regards and wishes.

SM.

[raal]

Originally Posted by robmix

Man you guys are brutal. I don't own one, but I used to work at the Hit Factory back in the day and they had three VR's. The number of great sounding hit records that came out of there is astounding. They (Neve) must've done something right.

in the 80s we used to have 2 VRs in LA -- many hits were in fact recorded on VRs and SSL Es - they were the only consoles with automation and you had to have either if you wanted to be 'world class'. after demoing both we decided on the VRs, which did sound better than Es, but alot worse than the Trident 80Bs they replaced!

yes, hits were made on those - and sure you can mix on them, but i sure don't like to . FWIW, ALL the engineers that had worked on the 80Bs before we installed the Neves preferred the 80Bs after hearing the difference... but we started getting all the big accounts after the VRs.

[paultools]

Originally Posted by raal

they were the only consoles with automation and you had to have either if you wanted to be 'world class'. after demoing both we decided on the VRs, which did sound better than Es, but alot worse than the Trident 80Bs they replaced!

I think you mean RECALL, not automation.
many of us have fond memories of punching in alternate data tracks from the beloved ARMS systems of the '80's.

[raal]

Originally Posted by paultools

I think you mean RECALL, not automation.
many of us have fond memories of punching in alternate data tracks from the beloved ARMS systems of the '80's.

meant fader automation. first we tried automating the 80Bs with VCAs... can't even remember the name of the company that did it - never worked.

[paultools]

Originally Posted by raal

meant fader automation. first we tried automating the 80Bs with VCAs... can't even remember the name of the company that did it - never worked.

So you mean moving fader automation?
In that case, you left out a certain system developed by a Mr. G Massenburg...

80B VCA retrofit possibly dfegad "Optimix" or something like that?

[audioscott]

Hi all,

The studio I have rented a room in has a Neve V3 like the one on this page:>>

Hi Rich,

The room you have booked wouldn't happen to be Basel City Studios, would it?

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

A different take here. Besides the disasterous 81 series consoles, this is the worst sounding Neve desk. Very dark, very thick. No air. David Pope designed it after Rupert left. The reason for the "V" name is it was named after the head designer, DP. They couldn't call it the "Pope" for the real Vatican would not approve, so they shortened it to "V".

Now you know the "Rest of the Story".

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Hi

I think it would be better to say that David conceptized it (is that a word?) from existing Neve technology like the 51 series and work in progress in the R and D lab.

Nothing at Neve was designed by one guy... even in the Rupert days there was an R and D lab.

Actually, all of this is a matter of opinion. I've known folk rave about their 81 series and they aren't going to sound like a vintage Neve whatever that sound is supposed to be.

I think that Neve addessed many of the issues with the V when they brought out the 88R.

[BrianK]

I would say the sound QUALITY is not great. It's fine at best, but not horrible. As with anything, a pro engineer can make it work for them, many fine albums have been done with gear of that nature.

If you know exceptional audio gear - Neve 80, API, Quad Eight, etc. it is not in that league at all. But it is better than most things of that era. I'd say if you DON'T do much EQing, you'll be OK and please avoid the onboard compressor stuff.

But then WHY do you want a desk?

Originally Posted by audioscott

Hi all,

The studio I have rented a room in has a Neve V3 like the one on this page:>>

Hi Rich,

The room you have booked wouldn't happen to be Basel City Studios, would it?

It is James, actually.
Nope- I am at Q-Lab.
I know Basel City though- I think they have a V3 also.

JR

Originally Posted by BrianK

If you know exceptional audio gear - Neve 80, API, Quad Eight, etc. it is not in that league at all. But it is better than most things of that era. I'd say if you DON'T do much EQing, you'll be OK and please avoid the onboard compressor stuff.

But then WHY do you want a desk?

I don't really- the main room here has one in it.
I work mostly in my little sweatbox of a studio but figured I'd mix quite a bit in the main rooom.
I've not mixed in that room yet and wanted to canvas opinion about the desk.
JR

[NemoTracks]

I once pulled two weeks worth of sessions out a room with a V-3 because the desk sounded like ass and I wouldn't work on the thing...

With all due respect Fletch, why did you book the studio in the first place??
Also I never ever heard of an Engineer that couldn't get it together on a Neve desk.
Did Massenberg walk too??? or did he just get on with it?

[Fletcher]

Well golly there Nem... I didn't book the session, I was booked onto the session.

Time ran out where we had been working and somebody, somewhere made arrangements to move the session to the room with the evil "V" series desk. I brought up a monitor mix on one of the songs and thought something was terribly, terribly wrong... the size of the recording shrunk like 3 sizes and we hadn't even run it through the dryer yet... fortunately, the producer on the gig [whose job it was to actually steer the boat] agreed with me and we got the hell out of there before irrepable damage was done to the music [not that it much mattered, the record went lead even with the change of studio].

You'd have to ask George what he did... all I know is the quote, and it's been a favorite since I saw it [I do recall seeing it in print somewhere, but I have no idea where that might have been].

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Well golly there Nem... I didn't book the session, I was booked onto the session.

Time ran out where we had been working and somebody, somewhere made arrangements to move the session to the room with the evil "V" series desk. I brought up a monitor mix on one of the songs and thought something was terribly, terribly wrong... the size of the recording shrunk like 3 sizes and we hadn't even run it through the dryer yet... fortunately, the producer on the gig [whose job it was to actually steer the boat] agreed with me and we got the hell out of there before irrepable damage was done to the music [not that it much mattered, the record went lead even with the change of studio].

You'd have to ask George what he did... all I know is the quote, and it's been a favorite since I saw it [I do recall seeing it in print somewhere, but I have no idea where that might have been].

Hi

Not a subject I know much about but I believe that the monitor section was one of the V's issues and that Mr Musgrave did a lot of mods to improve this.

http://www.madlabs.com/NEWS.html

It could be that folk with nice things to say had used these consoles... I know he did the ones at Conway.

[Lindell]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

Not a subject I know much about but I believe that the monitor section was one of the V's issues and that Mr Musgrave did a lot of mods to improve this.

http://www.madlabs.com/NEWS.html

"Depending on frame size and other features, the cost of the MAD Labs upgrade packages start at $65,000, offering tremendous savings to studios seeking up-to-date sonic performance." - Musgrove

No wonder they are called MAD LABS!! $65k for a mod! That is truly mad.....

Geoff; How does Neve do the summing on the V series? is it by 12 channels at a time, or is the whole console at ones?

Cheers,
L

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Lindell

"Depending on frame size and other features, the cost of the MAD Labs upgrade packages start at $65,000, offering tremendous savings to studios seeking up-to-date sonic performance." - Musgrove

No wonder they are called MAD LABS!! $65k for a mod! That is truly mad.....

Geoff; How does Neve do the summing on the V series? is it by 12 channels at a time, or is the whole console at ones?

Cheers,
L

Hi

Indeed, lots of $$$'s. I wasn't really giving him an endorsement but rather a "credit where credit was due".

They were just producing the first V1's while I was at Neve but I didn't pay them a lot of attention as I had my own custom department. What little I do remember is that the big board that carries the busses was 8 layer and Neve had to use a company in Europe to fabricate them. The V uses the same quasi-balanced bussing system as the 51 series that offered a 20dB improvement in both crosstalk and noise compared to traditional Neve bussing.

An amusing tale about the first V's was that this was around the time that Siemens took over the company from ESE who had taken over the company from Rupert back in '73.

Anyway, the head huncho from Siemens flew over to give us a pep talk and they cleared an area in the test department for the staff to gather. They rigged up a podium and a PA system and everything was set for the big speech... which was to include complimentary comments about Neve quality.

The V was behind schedule so the testing was to continue through the lecture. Unbeknown to the testers was the fact that the wireman who fitted the huge electrolytics to the power busses that run the length of the rear of the console... had plugged every one of them into the wrong busses... reversing their polarity.

So the Siemens head climbs up the podium steps, starts his speech and then... BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG.... etc.... little pieces of silver foil shooting up in all directions like a firework display.

Not a good start!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

Not a subject I know much about but I believe that the monitor section was one of the V's issues and that Mr Musgrave did a lot of mods to improve this.

http://www.madlabs.com/NEWS.html

It could be that folk with nice things to say had used these consoles... I know he did the ones at Conway.

Musgrave can do the same for the SSL monitoring section the place where i feel sonically the SSL's suffer most.

[Musiclab]

he must change out everything for that kind of money. John modded my little rack
with 2 mic pre's 2 compressor/gates and 4 eq's and it was very reasonable.
FWIW the mic pre still arent really anything but the compressors are nice and the eq is usable

[Tim Halligan]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

The reason for the "V" name is it was named after the head designer, DP. They couldn't call it the "Pope" for the real Vatican would not approve, so they shortened it to "V".

I thought they named it after the zodiac sign - Virgo - as they have that whole Capricorn/Libra/Gemini thing happening...well, that was how Mark Crabtree explained it to me...


Cheers,
Tim

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Tim Halligan

I thought they named it after the zodiac sign - Virgo - as they have that whole Capricorn/Libra/Gemini thing happening...well, that was how Mark Crabtree explained it to me...


Cheers,
Tim

Hi Tim

They were making the first V's when I was at Neve in 1985.

In 1992 the Siemen's group lost patience with how Neve was being run (in my humble opinion) and amalgamated the company with Mark's AMS with massive redundancies.... that's seven years later.

Neve always had a policy of naming their consoles after local villages and the town in Scotland where the modules were assembled... Melbourn, Meldreth, Shepreth, Kelso, etc.

The V wasn't so much a name as a contrived designation character like the numbers they attributed to their other products.

With respect to Mark, I believe that his version is just a wild guess.

[raal]

Originally Posted by paultools

So you mean moving fader automation?
In that case, you left out a certain system developed by a Mr. G Massenburg...

80B VCA retrofit possibly dfegad "Optimix" or something like that?

pre optimix. it was "Melquist automation" - terrible. never worked.

also our neve desks were V3s (not VRs) because they didn't have TR, just FF - my bad, sorry.

[StrykeBack]

I interned at a studio in Hollywood that had a custom VR that was originally made for Warner Bros but was never used much. I know the studio traded almost a third of the console (since they didn't need as many as it originally had) to apparently one of the best neve techs in LA that completely recapped and modded the thing. I thought it sounded pretty damn good though definitely a different flavor from an SSL G and a neve Vx80 (i think it was, black all over with white lettering) and this neve sounded pretty damn good. Though the engineer had all kinds of avalon and manley eqs and comps on his stereo buss to help out his mix possibly...oh and the lovely original racked version of the ssl g comp.

[Marjan]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Well golly there Nem... I didn't book the session, I was booked onto the session.

Time ran out where we had been working and somebody, somewhere made arrangements to move the session to the room with the evil "V" series desk. I brought up a monitor mix on one of the songs and thought something was terribly, terribly wrong... the size of the recording shrunk like 3 sizes and we hadn't even run it through the dryer yet... fortunately, the producer on the gig [whose job it was to actually steer the boat] agreed with me and we got the hell out of there before irrepable damage was done to the music [not that it much mattered, the record went lead even with the change of studio].

You'd have to ask George what he did... all I know is the quote, and it's been a favorite since I saw it [I do recall seeing it in print somewhere, but I have no idea where that might have been].

Fletcher, what rig (desk) were you guys comming from before reaching the V3?

You know... sometimes if you develop something for a considerable time (you can do a lot in three weeks) with a certain setup and then move to a different one, chances are it wont sound ok until you make "some" adjustments, even if the second one is supposedly better...

I'm not a big SSL fan either, just personal taste I suppose... and I never worked on any V3, but there used to be one in a studio near by, and the mixes that came from it did sound pretty decent to me.

I'm actually surprised Jim said it sounds dark cause I think it's the opposite...
As someone said above, there are sweeter sounding desks, but I think you can certainly make a great recording on a V3.

[madlabs-john]

I have done a considerable amount of R&D on the V-series Frame. The upgrade is not $65,000. that is the price to re-cap and modify 72 modules, plus the complete power and grounding upgrade as well as the center section with added 8 channel post production monitor panel with reassign and stem-mixer. I believe Neve charged $65,000 just for the post panel ($35,000 at Mad Labs). So I guess I would be called 'mad' considering I was charging 1/2 of what Neve asked. Also for the price of the 48 ch re-cap quoted in the above thread, I would do 72 modules. That included not just the capacitor replacement, but the replacement of all but 4 op-amps, all the audio switching FETs, grounding fixes that improved the module performance from typical .0025 THD @1K +15dB to .00090 THD @1K +15dB, plus the sonic enhancements that my work is known for. When George Massenburg sat at the console he looked up and said” You have a product here” Chuck Ainley said ‘my god” but most said ‘Why didn’t Neve do this’. There is a bit of history in my work on these consoles, but I’ll save that for a new thread. Bottom line is once you give these puppies plenty of power and ground, they open up nice. Big fans of the Conway consoles included Ed Cherney, Mick guzousky, Mike Clink, Jerry Finn, Nate Kunkle and Peter Mokern. all But nate camped out in studio B for extended periods of time Also in NYC John King's Green room at Chung King was a favorite until he sold the console to Conway to replace Conway’s SSL J series. I would like to thank Strykback for his kind words about the Warner Brothers console that I tweaked a little (not the full upgrade). Also I have the custom 24x8 mixer from that desk for sale…. I am a little bit of a mad man; I put sonics and production quality before profit. People who I have done large projects for know this to be my passion and art in life.