a few questions (neve, studer, ssl related)

[achtung baby]

hey guys, this is my first post. i've been working in the music business for going on 20 years now. i've been able to FINALLY get a investor to put up some cash for my (previously)all self funded and self built studio. i'm fortunate enough to already have pro tools HD2 Accel and a studer 820 24 track...but now i need to upgrade my board (midas verona) and my 2track machine (otari mx5050).

so...i'd like some feedback on which models of SSL and Neve's i should be looking for and wether i should go with SSL or Neve. i need recall, great pres, eqs, and dynamics...basically the stuff that SSL and Neve are both known for.

i also need some help deciding between an ampex ATR-102 and a studer 820 2 track.

i record rock and want gear with big sounding 'rock n roll' mojo. i've never had the oppurunity of using either an SSL, neve, or ampex. my studio is complete as far as outboard gear and mics go...i just need the last 2 pieces of the puzzle. please help me out with some suggestions.

i will also be purchasing some apogee 16 channel converters and lavry 2 channel converters to interface between the analog and digital realms with as little sound degradation as possible.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by achtung baby

hey guys, this is my first post.

Welcome.

Originally Posted by achtung baby

i've been able to FINALLY get a investor to put up some cash...

As they say there is one born every minute.
(Just kidding).

Originally Posted by achtung baby

so...i'd like some feedback on which models of SSL and Neve's i should be looking for and wether i should go with SSL or Neve. i need recall, great pres, eqs, and dynamics...basically the stuff that SSL and Neve are both known for.

What's your budget like?

To get everything you want on one console is going to cost you a pretty penny.

The SSL's aren't known for their pre's.

They are known more for their mixdown offerings(EQ,Channel dynamics,mix buss comp,routing,automation).

The Neve's are known more for their micpre/EQ's but these are the older consoles and these don't have some of the requirements you want.

Now you can get a new 88R if you really want a Neve which has alot of the requirements plus you can have it outfitted with your choice of AMS-Neve micpre.

I can't comment on its dynamics since i've never used one.

The records i've heard mixed on it haven't excited me but that could be for a lot of different reasons.

Originally Posted by achtung baby

i also need some help deciding between an ampex ATR-102 and a studer 820 2 track.

They both can work for rock.

The 102 is flatter sounding and the 820 has a low end bump.

You just have to get used to sound of either one.

Originally Posted by achtung baby

i record rock and want gear with big sounding 'rock n roll' mojo.

Again this could be the music,the arrangement,the gear or just the engineer.

You need all to be working at once.

[achtung baby]

well...i've got some pres that i really like (i've got a chandler tg-2, great river mp-2nv, API 3124, UA 2-610, and GT vipre) so i can deal with the ssl not having great pres. however, would you say SSL preamps are atleast pretty good? i don't want to end up with something with terrible preamps. for example, i've found the pres on my verona to be good enough to use on sessions and not be disapointed.

as far as the tape machine goes, i think i'm just going to go with whatever i can get a good deal on(both as far as price, the condition of the heads, etc).

i've got right around 100k to play with, so if i can find some good equipment for less than that i might get a c-800g and/or some more analog eqs for the 2 buss.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by achtung baby

i've got right around 100k to play with, so if i can find some good equipment for less than that i might get a c-800g and/or some more analog eqs for the 2 buss.

The only SSL with decent enough mic pre's you can get for 100K is the AWS 900.

It doesn't have dynamics on every channel is only 24 channels.

A step up from this both financially and functionally(useful mic pre's) is a 9000 J.

Some guys like mixing rock on it(Michael Brauer & Tim Palmer for example).

Others prefer mixing on the older SSL's like the 4000E's and G's.

A G+ maybe a good compromise.

The VCA's and line amps don't over load or crunch like the older E's, but it still has the "SSL sound" on rock.

But to find one used at your budget will be chore.

[achtung baby]

seems to me like i should stick with the verona, get the converters and a new tape machine and hold off on an ssl until i can get exactly the one i want huh?

can you compare a 9000J to a 9000K?

really, i just need good, clean mic amps. i won't be using them for anything other than that. i've got all of the 'color' pieces i need...but decent clean mic pres would be a big time help.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by achtung baby

seems to me like i should stick with the verona, get the converters and a new tape machine and hold off on an ssl until i can get exactly the one i want huh?

.

No not necessarily.

You just have to look around and have the money in hand.

Its different when you make an offer to someone with cash in hand than when you are "just inquiring".

Originally Posted by achtung baby

can you compare a 9000J to a 9000K?

.

9000K has better monitoring sonics,the summing buss doesn't tighten up in the bass when you hit it with all of its inputs at once and it has better facilities for surround and hi resolution recordings.

It also comes standard for Digi PT lock up.

Originally Posted by achtung baby

really, i just need good, clean mic amps. i won't be using them for anything other than that. i've got all of the 'color' pieces i need...but decent clean mic pres would be a big time help.

Again check out the SSL 9000 series.

I've recorded drums and vocals on them and they were fine.

Nice and clean a far cry from the mic pre's in my 6000E.

[achtung baby]

seems like the 9000k is EXACTLY what i want. i don't need the surround stuff at the moment, but then again i've always wanted to play around with 5.1 mixing .

hopefully an ssl will eventually more than pay for itself because people see 'midas verona' and don't care...they see 'ssl' and get their wallets out.

[JulianBrightnes]

Hi Baby,

Never owned a 'large console' myself. Only had the occasional experience on Neve's and SSL's in other studio's. Since march I have the SSL AWS 900 in my studio now and I would definitly not forget to check it out!
I'm so happy working with it, not in the least bit because it intergrates so wonderfully with Protools. Of course the 9000 is fantastic ánd a 'client magnet'. But also the AWS caries the SSL name and I've found clients love this board as well.
All I want to say is: I'm very, very pleased with this board so don't forget to check it out!
If you have specific questions: let me know.

Cheers and good luck with your studio!

Julian

[achtung baby]

i'm glad you brought up the AWS900. i suppose that i don't need dynamics on every channel, plus i love my current outboard comps and the sony oxford dynamics plug in is really great. that might be a lower priced alternative that i must investigate. thanks for reminding me of that one.

how easy is it to switch between channel groups in pro tools when working with more than 24 channels?

[Lindell]

If you want more "meat", more "music" and bottom, and if you track alot. A newer Neve like a VX or a VR Legend with Encore automation will send you to heaven.... The eq is god send and very punchy, the dynamics is pretty smooth. Works well on acoustic instruments and vocals. The mic pre is very musical and clean sort of.
You also have recall and flying faders.

/Lindell

[JulianBrightnes]

Originally Posted by achtung baby

i'm glad you brought up the AWS900. i suppose that i don't need dynamics on every channel, plus i love my current outboard comps and the sony oxford dynamics plug in is really great. that might be a lower priced alternative that i must investigate. thanks for reminding me of that one.

how easy is it to switch between channel groups in pro tools when working with more than 24 channels?

It's just a push on a button. You can either flip one channel at a time or in banks of 24 or less channels.

Cheers, Julian

[aidyhall]

Hi achtung baby,

Welcome to the forum!

I will play devils advocate and say that for mixing rock stuff and at your price point, an SSL G-series in good condition is unbeatable. Highly usable mic pre's, great dynamics on every channel, powerful 'grabby' EQ that's great for rock, total recall and automation. Hell, if its good enough for Andy Wallace and Alan Moulder, its good enough for me!

If you can afford the Ultimation moving-fader option, then that's great, but in any case, get an Al Smart '2Tools' interface to make the desk talk to ProTools and vice-versa (yes, its bi-directional, the only box I know that does this!).

The J and K desks are sonically cleaner, but a little bit more bland, and probably not the right thing for your situation. I've done surround mixes on the G-series, there are plenty of group outputs to feed the extra channels, in almost all music-type sessions, unless you want loads of helicopter-round-the-head type panning.

All the best!

[achtung baby]

Originally Posted by aidyhall

Hell, if its good enough for Andy Wallace and Alan Moulder, its good enough for me!

alan moulder? really? i absolutely adore his work. his work with my bloody valentine, JAMC, and swervedriver are really, really big deal albums to me. that's awesome...i must look into this!

could you give me more info on ultimation? i've only found very broad stuff about it but it sounds quite helpful.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by aidyhall

Hi achtung baby,

Welcome to the forum!

I will play devils advocate and say that for mixing rock stuff and at your price point, an SSL G-series in good condition is unbeatable. Highly usable mic pre's, great dynamics on every channel, powerful 'grabby' EQ that's great for rock, total recall and automation. Hell, if its good enough for Andy Wallace and Alan Moulder, its good enough for me!

For modern rock i still prefer the crunchy sound of the older E's to the fttttt sound of G's.

I still don't like the mic pre's on either but that's a personal choice.

And what Andy Wallace and Alan Moulder mixes on shouldn't weigh in on the decision unless they are coming over to your studio to mix on it.

Like i've posted in the past i've heard many a mix die a brutal death by engineers who don't really know how to make an SSL rock.

And they almost always blame the board.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

The 102 is flatter sounding and the 820 has a low end bump.

Hey Thrill I thought the ATR does have a bump. It's been a long time since I've had to align one but I seem to remember if you align 100hz to Ovu, 50hz will be about .5 to 1db hot. Again it's been a while but there was definitely some low end voodoo.

On a side not I actually got to hear the same pop/rock mix printed to ATR and 820 and everyone in the room chose the ATR hands down. Just my $.02.

[achtung baby]

the E or G series with 2tools seems like what i should get. whatever i get i'll have to get some friends together and jam in the studio going to both pro tools and tape and experiment with the SSL so i can start learning it's tricks.

an ampex seems like the ticket. a studer multitack onto an ampex 2track is a pretty classic combination. no?

these 2 pieces should pretty much complete my studio. i would've never dreamed i'd be using this quality of gear all those years ago in junior high recording my band and friends bands using at first a cassette 4 track then a 1/2 inch 8 track through some POS board with radioshack quality mics in my parents basement. it seems like this crazy gamble of starting my own studio might work after all.

[UrbinSprawl]

Originally Posted by achtung baby

the E or G series with 2tools seems like what i should get. whatever i get i'll have to get some friends together and jam in the studio going to both pro tools and tape and experiment with the SSL so i can start learning it's tricks.

an ampex seems like the ticket. a studer multitack onto an ampex 2track is a pretty classic combination. no?

these 2 pieces should pretty much complete my studio. i would've never dreamed i'd be using this quality of gear all those years ago in junior high recording my band and friends bands using at first a cassette 4 track then a 1/2 inch 8 track through some POS board with radioshack quality mics in my parents basement. it seems like this crazy gamble of starting my own studio might work after all.

Hi Achtung,
I had a setup recently for several years with a G+ with Ultimation, an A827 24 track, and an ATR 102 half inch. It was great. Or at least so I'm told by the people who actually used it, while I sat in my office all day trying to figure out how to pay for it all.

Do you mean you have $100K for the whole shootin' match? Or 100K just for the desk? 100K just for the desk gives you alot of options. 100K for everything.....not. A very important question to ask, is whether you are planning to attract commercial clients. If so, console choice MUST be dictated by the tastes of the clients you hope to, or can attract. Geographical location is also a HUGE issue in this choice. I was in Manhattan. By the time I bought my console (2000), the ONLY choice for a commercial music-oriented studio in Manhattan was an SSL. Hopefully a J if you could afford it. (The K was not yet out). Buying anything else was sheer suicide. (Of course, the argument could be made that installing ANY large format console in Manhattan is suicide at this point.) However to my knowledge, this was not the case in LA for instance, where Neve's were still in high demand.

FWIW, for the last few years I had my room, the engineers by and large were not even using the automation on the SSL. (Nor were they using the Studer) The reason I was given was that riding the faders in protools was much more precise than ultimation ever could be. Now, certainly that is a matter of personal preference. Because by contrast, Jason Corsaro came in to mix a record and blew my staff's mind with what he was able to pull out of that console. (Apparently the G+ is his favorite desk, for good reason).

The Ampex on the other hand, was raved about by everyone. There was one engineer that even liked to run his mixes through the electronics (without even going to tape), back into protools.

My advice overall would be, to simply not confuse "investment" with "money". Investment is debt, no matter how you slice it, and just be sure you can pay back, in spades, whatever debt or equity investment you take on. Don't get all goofy and giddy with gear lust . Keep your head and be practical. This is business!

By the way, I've already sold my SSL and my Studer, but I'm still holding onto the Ampex. (Because I'm a stubborn old fool.) However, realistically I probably should sell it. Send me a PM if you are interested.

Good luck....

[raal]

Originally Posted by achtung baby

i'd like some feedback on which models of SSL and Neve's i should be looking for and wether i should go with SSL or Neve. i need recall, great pres, eqs, and dynamics...basically the stuff that SSL and Neve are both known for.

alrighty then.... here's another opinion to confuse you! i'm pretty much in the same boat as you and have recently done much research.

my 2¢ in order of sound quality - all have recall, automation and are within the $100K budget:

AWS 900 grade 8 to 9
G+ (real G+ with E EQs -- NOT a G w/G+ computer --) grade 7 to 8
Euphonix 6.5
Neve VR 6
SSL E 5

the only ones i'm considering are the AWS and G+. either would make me happy. i wouldn't consider a J - was offered one for $150K and passed. PM me if you like and i'll give you the boring reasons why.

advantages of AWS:

small (if you're space handicapped like me), DAW controller, and great sound - got the sizzle you can get out of a G+ (at 16K) at about 9 or 10K and it goes up to 22K - low end is LARGE. headroom for days - overloaded two channels, pinned the stereo bus VUs and it didn't even breathe hard.

disadvantages: only 24 channels, only two assignable dynamics + great bus comp. - high pass but no low pass filters, doesn't look deliciously kewl.

advantages of G+: many channels all with dynamics + great bus comp. real nice sound ('little goes a long way' EQ), both high and low pass filters, looks deliciously kewl.

disadvantages: huge size and huge light bills at the end of the month + needs big air conditioning, noisy computer/PS racks - NOT a DAW controller, so more space is needed for one. maintenance on a 6-10 year old car is a bear. not much different with a console.

i've been looking for a G+and haven't been able to find one that isn't huge (i.e. 80 channels). plenty of SSLs out there, but not alot of real G+, so i'm definitely leaning toward the AWS, hoping they'll offer dynamics for it and expansion (they've added TR and AWSomation - a year or so ago both were emphatically denied).

i also need some help deciding between an ampex ATR-102 and a studer 820 2 track.

co-owned a studio in the 80s with Neve VRs and both ATR 102 and Studer multi and 2 track machines. most people went for the 102 (myself included) - thought it was 'punchier' than the studer, though thrill who probably has much more experinece than i, prefers the studer for the same reason (mojo)!

bottom line is you'd better be prepared to be bombarded by contradictory views from very successful and knowledgable folks - better to actually sit in from of these things and listen.

[Lindell]

http://www.primalgear.com/nevevx.html

For sale

[JulianBrightnes]

Originally Posted by raal

disadvantages: only 24 channels, only two assignable dynamics + great bus comp. - high pass but no low pass filters, doesn't look deliciously kewl.

The SSL rep here in the Netherlands told me it's possible to get less, but also more channels, if you like.


Cheers, Julian

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by JulianBrightnes

The SSL rep here in the Netherlands told me it's possible to get less, but also more channels, if you like.


Cheers, Julian

Less is possible indeed (in banks of 8 afaik), but more? I think the AWS comes in one framesize (up to 24 channel) only...

[achtung baby]

thanks for all of the replies guys.

this isn't a 'have to have now to keep studio running' things. i've been making pretty decent money with my current setup(please don't take this as bragging). my investor has actually been pretty flexible (he actually knows something about audio and isn't a pushy jerk). i can really hold off on purchases for awhile to scout for deals.

i'm pretty sure i'm going to get an ampex and a real deal SSL G+. i've always wanted a 'big board' and this seems like my only chance to get one, so i might as well jump on it.

i think i'd be satisfied no matter wether i got a studer or ampex, no matter which SSL, no matter wether i got an SSL or Neve to be honest. it's like choosing between a bentley and a rolls royce, basically.

i am, however, going to get my apogee 16 channel ad and da converters and 2 channel lavry's right now...i could definately use the quality converters immediately.

thanks for all of the opinions guys!

[Lindell]

Cool !! Good luck!

[JulianBrightnes]

Originally Posted by DrDeltaM

Less is possible indeed (in banks of 8 afaik), but more? I think the AWS comes in one framesize (up to 24 channel) only...

I talked about it with the rep, he said it was possible, it's just not a standard service, like less channels. But if Baby needs to know for sure I'll check it out.

Cheers, Julian

[DrDeltaM]

Originally Posted by JulianBrightnes

I talked about it with the rep, he said it was possible, it's just not a standard service, like less channels. But if Baby needs to know for sure I'll check it out.

Cheers, Julian

Ah, cool to know You don't have to check especially, i know the Belgian SSL distributor pretty well myself, might as well ask him. Plus i'm not really in the market for any of the configurations atm

[JulianBrightnes]

I'm drifting off the subject here: good luck with the G+ Baby!!!

Cheerio Julian