Tracking Drum Gear! what do you think?

[migsoto]

I'm planing to buy all this gear for my new studio:
What would you change?, recomend? place anywhere, agree or veto?

Drums/Percussion/etc Tracking Gear: 5 Piece Drumset

ADA/Interface: Lynx Aurora 16 + PCIe Card
DAW: Logic Studio + Analog Line Mixer, until I can afford PT HD.

Preamps:

A Designs Gold -> Floor Tom
A Designs Blue -> Snare Bottom
Shadow Hills mono Gamma -> Hi-Hat
Vintech X73i (Neve 1073 + EQ) -> (1) Kick in
Vintech X73i (Neve 1073 + EQ) -> (2) Snare Top
Brent Averill 312A (1) -> Tom 1
Brent Averill 312A (2) -> Tom 2
UA 6176 (610B pre + 1176LN Limiting Amplifier) -> Kick Out
AEA TRP -> Overheads Ribbon Preamp
A Designs P1 -> Ride (optional)

Mics:

Sennheiser e905 (dynamic) -> Snare top
Audix i5 (Dynamic) -> Snare Bottom
AKD D122 (Dynamic) -> kick in
EV RE 20 (Dynamic Cardioid) -> Kick Out
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) / Audix D2 (Hyper cardioid) -> Tom 1
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) / Audix D2 (Hyper cardioid)-> Tom 2
AT 3031 (SD Condenser) -> Hi-hat
Audix D-4 (Hyper cardioid) -> Tom Floor
Royer SF-12 (Stereo Ribbon) -> Overheads
AT 3031 (SD Condenser) -> Ride (optional)

I also have a Neumann M149 (LD Condenser) -> Floor Tom (optional)

Thank you for your inputs!

Mig

[migsoto]

Anybody?

[SRS]

Looks to me like you have your bases covered pretty well. You have some flexibility there with different pres and mics. Make sure you get the Lynx AES-16e card for the machine, and go Mac if you at all can.

And make sure you focus intensely on your room acoustical treatment. Traps and absorption are key, and diffusion if the room can take it too. A good properly treated room is often critical to great drum tracking. Good luck!

My 2 cents.

[ImJohn]

Hi Mig,

While everything you list is nice gear, it's quite a varied list and unless you have used all these specific peices before with your indicated usage and know for sure that it is going to work for you in the way you intend, you might want to simplify things for now and then fill in the gaps after you figure out the best use for the equipment you initially purchase.


Some preamps I'd recommend in no particular order:

Shadow Hills mono Gamma
Brent Averill 312A
API 512c
A-Designs P1, Red, Blue, Silver, Gold
Atlas Juggernaut

John Hardy M-1
Martek MSS-10
Aurora GTQ2
A-Designs MP-2A
Lavry Blue
Daking


Some mics I'd recommend in no particular order:

Beyer M201 (through a Martek MSS-10 pre kicks ass for Snare top!)
Audio Technica ATM25 (excellent kick inside)
Avenson STO-2 (can be really great as relatively inexpensive overheads)



Alternative suggested simplified preamp setup:

The John Hardy Company M-1 Mic Preamp (overheads, toms, anything!)

Aurora Audio GTQ2 (snare top and kick inside or anything!)

Get a Brent Averill Rack and then slowely fill with any variety of 500 style pres!


There are tons of different ways to go! Do some searches here on thee forum! Best of luck!

[5down1up]

just my 2 cents, ...

SAVE your money

the rooms the most important thing when tracking imo.

buy a used 16 channel desk with pres & eq for ~3k and go for it.

invest in something that hold its value. youll always get some money out of some api f.ex.
a stereo mic can be a nice thing, anyway, i would go for 2 single mics in fact of options.

good luck

[tomdarude]

all good advice so far!! and yes...drummer -> kit -> tuning -> room that´s def. 75-85% of the sound I´d say

on top of that:

a bargain in my book for drums is the Daking MicPre IV

something Neve-ish for BD/SN I really like....Aurora GTQ2, VintageDesign DMP, I also like the Chandler TG2!

a clean stereo pre for OH/room is cool: TRP, Shinybox, DACS, GML, Forsell etc.

guess the Royer SF-12 is a really good idea, as would also be a pair of AEA R84´s (OH, stereo-pair in front @ ear hight) ...maybe just 1 for an additional ribbon (mono-OH, fok, recorder-man) (alternatively a shinybox)

if you can find one: original D12 (very cool....small bass-amps love that too)

beyer 201...must have (for when the SN doesn´t like the 57) or even better

Josephson e22 I know it´s $$$$ but man, on snare?!?!! crazy!! (loves also tabla, perc. etc.)

[migsoto]

The rooms are heavily treated, that's covered. thanks for the advice though

I'm looking for a Rascal Flatts type of sound, their drums sound terrific to me, well all the tracks indeed. Would this gear get me there?. A guy from Audiolot recomended me to get only BAE's 1073 pres, but thats way out of my budget, so he told me to get 2 racked 1073 and fill the rest channels with BAE's 312. he also recomended Peluso P12 instead of Royer SF-12 for Overheads. and everything else is kind of the same. Would this take me to the sound I'm looking for. I'm being really specific, Rascal Flatts like.

At the same time, I'm not tracking only drums, just about everything else too. I want the pres and mics to give me some flexibility

I already own:

Barefoots MicroMain27 Monitors
Neumann M149 LD mic
UA 6176 Mic Pre

[5down1up]

Originally Posted by masp84

I'm being really specific, Rascal Flatts like

Had an eye & ear on this one ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWFbUfTAb-Q

Wow, cool band, guess they didnt start out yesterday

Dont want to confuse you, but it is really hard to tell when reading your post,on which page of the book you really are, talking about the whole phenomen *sound*.

The equipment you want to get, is probably all top notch and will deliver great quality. Its all a matter of taste and i get confused real quick when trying 10 different pres and mics on a bass drum. Which one is the best ?

Changing the tuning, the heads or even the drums makes a way bigger difference to my ears. The rest is just the last 5% of vodoo to my ears at least.

So maybe you tell a lil more about you room, your drums, your playing ...

there are so many options ... MADNESS

[Akshay]

a good digital interface with a lot of I/O and running PT LE,
in my opinion would be a better option than an analog setup and Logic as the DAW...
but this is STRICTLY my preferance

[migsoto]

My recording room is kinda small, wood floor, bass traps in every corner and 3 panels of bass traps on each wall, it's not rectangular and it has difusors at the back wall, I know it's difficult to get, and I'm sure the gear is great. I just want the bess for presence, tightness and punch I can get is my list there?

[SRS]

Your list is there... All you gotta do now is buy, play and record. And at the TOP of the list... have fun.

[Steffmo]

The only thing on your list I might question is the RE20. I find it kind f middy in a position where you want something catching subs.

The rest, although highly subjective, seems pretty solid to me.

I prefer the Coles to the Royer...but who cares what I think.

Snare mics...some days you might wanna flip those. Either could work in either position.
A Beyer 201 as someone mentioned is a nice add.

I'd also suggest a Sennheiser 441 for ballads or songs where you need a bigger bottom on the snare.

Rascal Flatts drums won't need a lot of room, just great tuning and playing technique. At the end of the day you will find that alot of gear can get the sound, but few drummers can create it.

[u b k]

i'm gonna pretty much echo everything peacock is saying & advising. 3-4 of the *right* mics, one type of pre. this gives you a sound that is utterly natural and, depending on how you treat it, can be small and focused or massive and thundering.

that, for me, usually means a dynamic each on snare and kick, and two exceptional mics for the whole kit. i track a lot at a friend's and i always prefer the 67/44 combo to everything else he's got, and he's got a few to play with. add to that an re20, 441, or somesuch on the kick, and whatever random odd mic we feel like experimenting with on snare. sometimes i'll prefer an sdc on snare, 84 or m300, something smooth.

1066's, tabs, martech, drs, daking, all lovely preamp flavors. i also love the api sound but that for me means there has to be an api compressor involved, the pre + comp is a formidable tone.

the beauty of simplicity cannot be overstated. the efficacy may also surprise you; that everyone and their uncle is using 80 mics on the kit for the 'modern' sound doesn't mean that's what's required, it just means that's how a lot of people are doing it.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[chrisso]

I also agree about simplifying things a great deal.
The great drums of the past were largely recorded on one console, perhaps with a few outboard Pultec's, or API's or Neve's for a few specifics like snare and bass drum.
I think a truly experienced engineer could end up using a lot of different mic/pre/eq's and lot's of different mics, but it would be for a reason and from personal experience.
I presume you haven't personally used all those mics and outboard units.
In which case I would start with a few 'usual suspect' type units and take it from there.
The Shure 57 is a great snare mic. Senn 421's are great tom mics - why a different mic between mounted and floor toms?
Even the best drum recording engineers I've worked with are happy to use a set up full of regular popular mics, like the 57, 421 and Coles/Royer ribbons.
Daking and API make very good 4ch mic/pre's too for example.

[migsoto]

it's like peakock said, I've read a lot here on gearslutz, I've never tracked a drum in my life, I know I wont get it right the first times, but I just don't want to find myslef somehow limited by the gear I own. The mics and Pre choices are all from shootouts made here and some drummers recomendations although I've made some changes.

A Designs Gold -> Floor Tom
A Designs Blue -> Snare top
Shadow Hills mono Gamma -> Hi-Hat
Brent Averill 312A -> (1) Kick in
Brent Averill 312A -> (2) Snare Botton
Brent Averill 312A (3) -> Tom 1
Brent Averill 312A (4) -> Tom 2
UA 6176 (610B pre + 1176LN Limiting Amplifier) -> Kick Out
AEA TRP -> Overheads Ribbon Preamp
A Designs P1 -> Ride (optional)

Mics:
Beyer M201 (dynamic) -> Snare top
Sennheiser MD441 II -> Snare Bottom
AKD D12 (Dynamic) -> kick in
Yamaha Subkick -> Kick Out
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) -> Tom 1
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) -> Tom 2
Neumann KM184 (SD Condenser) -> Hi-hat
Audix D-4 (Hyper cardioid) -> Tom Floor
AEA R84 (Pair Ribbon) -> Overheads
Neumann KM1841 (SD Condenser) -> Ride (optional)

Would it be better this way?

[Blind]

to me... around 90-95% of the drum sound comes from the room, the proper tuning, the proper drumheads, proper stick choice, most importantly the playing style and the feel that is conveyed and proper mic choice and placement. I'd also agree to peacock, that i'd chose one type of pre (love the 1073s) to retain a certain unity and ''naturalness'' in the sound...

and concerning the fact that you haven't been tracking drums thus far, you should propably admit to yourself that your ears are not yet accustomed to it. which means, that it would be a bit over-the-top to start out like you want to...

my 2 cents..

[tomdarude]

never done it before...yes, than I´d hesitate on buying such a huge list of stuff!

starting from scratch those would be my choice for a great start (without fear of things becoming obsolete)

Daking MicPre IV
AEA TRP

.......DONE for pre´s


2x Coles 4038
1x AEA R84
1x old D12
1x Sm57
1x Mojave MA 200 (maybe even only the new fet version)

this will get you started....now experiment,
(these can be recorderman, stereo OH, stereo front, mono-OH, mono fok, room mics....endless combinations already!!)



things I´d personally like to add over time:

pres: Wunder Pafour, Mercury M76´s

Josephson e22 (well, just cuz I like it so much!!)
Pair of SDC´s for a different OH flavor (maybe tube)...beyer mc930, mojave, old gefell

2-3x MD 421´s
1x MD 441
1x Beyer 201

( 2x Wunder CM12 (or anything else remotly C12-ish for a great different OH´s))



otherwise great advice from UBK and Peacock....+10 for that!!


and something else: I´d look for a huge variety of the BEST possible collection of (handhammered) cymbals you could possibly get!!!
add at least 2 or 3 OUTSTANDING sounding snare´s to that (doens´t always mean much $$$)

that´ll get you VERY far ahead of the average joe regarding their drumsound

[drumrec.com]

Originally Posted by masp84

it's like peakock said, I've read a lot here on gearslutz, I've never tracked a drum in my life, I know I wont get it right the first times, but I just don't want to find myslef somehow limited by the gear I own. The mics and Pre choices are all from shootouts made here and some drummers recomendations although I've made some changes.

A Designs Gold -> Floor Tom
A Designs Blue -> Snare top
Shadow Hills mono Gamma -> Hi-Hat
Brent Averill 312A -> (1) Kick in
Brent Averill 312A -> (2) Snare Botton
Brent Averill 312A (3) -> Tom 1
Brent Averill 312A (4) -> Tom 2
UA 6176 (610B pre + 1176LN Limiting Amplifier) -> Kick Out
AEA TRP -> Overheads Ribbon Preamp
A Designs P1 -> Ride (optional)

Mics:
Beyer M201 (dynamic) -> Snare top
Sennheiser MD441 II -> Snare Bottom
AKD D12 (Dynamic) -> kick in
Yamaha Subkick -> Kick Out
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) -> Tom 1
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) -> Tom 2
Neumann KM184 (SD Condenser) -> Hi-hat
Audix D-4 (Hyper cardioid) -> Tom Floor
AEA R84 (Pair Ribbon) -> Overheads
Neumann KM1841 (SD Condenser) -> Ride (optional)

Would it be better this way?

I personally would run on more API preamp!! But with your list is just pressing the rec button and have fun


Good luck my friend and it is incredibly fun to track drums (believe me).

Best Regards

Hansson

[dubrichie]

for someone who has never tracked drums before your combination of preamps is a BAD IDEA.

it will take time, experimentation and, eventually, experience to get good at it.

the last thing you need during this process is such a mind-boggling concoction of preamps to complicate matters.

great drum sounds, great ANY sounds, can be gotten with any great preamp. the differences can be so very subtle. mic choice and placement will make a much bigger difference to any sound than any differences offered by different preamps.

buy enough great preamps of ONE kind and get recording... and learning.

Dakings sound top notch and are excellent value. i can't recommend the EQs highly enough either. so, perhaps one or two 4-channel preamp units and 2 or 4 of the pre/EQ units.

seriously, you do NOT want to have such a plethora of preamp choices to second guess when you are LEARNING to track drums.

if you have a good drummer, a good kit, sounding good in a good room and you can't learn to track good sounding drums with a bunch of Dakings, or any ONE kind of great preamp, then you should be doing something else with your time.

please trust me on this. save yourself a lot of cash and a lot more complications, second guesses and grief and strip it down man. KISS. keep it simple, stupid.

ya dig?

[blackcatdigi]

Originally Posted by masp84

it's like peakock said, I've read a lot here on gearslutz, I've never tracked a drum in my life, I know I wont get it right the first times, but I just don't want to find myslef somehow limited by the gear I own. The mics and Pre choices are all from shootouts made here and some drummers recomendations although I've made some changes.

A Designs Gold -> Floor Tom
A Designs Blue -> Snare top
Shadow Hills mono Gamma -> Hi-Hat
Brent Averill 312A -> (1) Kick in
Brent Averill 312A -> (2) Snare Botton
Brent Averill 312A (3) -> Tom 1
Brent Averill 312A (4) -> Tom 2
UA 6176 (610B pre + 1176LN Limiting Amplifier) -> Kick Out
AEA TRP -> Overheads Ribbon Preamp
A Designs P1 -> Ride (optional)

Mics:
Beyer M201 (dynamic) -> Snare top
Sennheiser MD441 II -> Snare Bottom
AKD D12 (Dynamic) -> kick in
Yamaha Subkick -> Kick Out
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) -> Tom 1
Sennheiser MD 421 II (Dynamic) -> Tom 2
Neumann KM184 (SD Condenser) -> Hi-hat
Audix D-4 (Hyper cardioid) -> Tom Floor
AEA R84 (Pair Ribbon) -> Overheads
Neumann KM1841 (SD Condenser) -> Ride (optional)

Would it be better this way?

Wow...

Never recorded a kit.

I would recommend you just get a little 16ch Mackie or something, a dozen sm57s, a Beta52 for kick and 4 or 5 SM81s and do a little tracking.

Your list above confuses me, and I've been doing this for a while.

I think if you go anywhere NEAR that list it'll take you a long, long, time to get anything usable. You'll be bogged down in endless options.

If you can't get a pro sound out of the list I suggest, perhaps you should hire out drum tracking.

Good luck!

[chrisso]

I agree with all the good advice above.
I'm not a recording engineer, but a drummer who has watched recording engineers for many years.
99.9% of the time they use the same mics on all toms, and the same pre.
So I wonder how someone who has never tracked drums decided to be different?
I agree also that less is definitely more when it comes to beginner drum recording.
Honestly, I'm in the same boat myself..... looking to record my own drums and looking to put together a drum recording set up.
This is what I've done so far:
A bunch of Quad Eight mic/pre eq's.
They were cheap to buy when I started putting this together and have a proven track record for the sound I want.
An API 500 Series lunchbox with a selection of 512 and 312 mic/pre's.
Again, a proven track record and simple to use and maintain.

Mics?
Very much the usual suspects:
Snare = SM57
Hi-hat = AKG C451 or Neumann KM84
Overheads = 2 x Coles 4038 or KM84
Toms = 421's
Bass drum = AKG D12 or 421, plus U47 (Lawson clone)
Single room ambience so far = Neumann U77
I'll probably add a few more mics before I'm ready to go, but my mic list is more about options than multiple mic set-ups.
I'm thinking I'll probably go with 4 to 8 mics until I start to get a handle on mic positioning and phase issues.

[migsoto]

Ok, I agree I must stick with BAE's 312 for now, maybe that pair of Neve 1073 peacock suggested. I haven't tracked drums but I have done plenty of percussion before in my old studio, I based my choices on all the things I read here, and wanted to have some flexibility and choices as I'm not only tracking drums , but strings, brass, Ac Guitars, ect that's why the preamp madness, about the mics, they are all very cheap and good so I thought I'd be a good thing to buy at least two choices per piece, but I reckon I'll follow your advice, learn how my new room responds, and yea it's true less sometimes is more, with all the things I have to experiment with I might find my self stressed out and losing my hair before I start doing what we like the most, Music.

I need one more Advice, I believe that the Great River for the 500 series is a clone of neve 1073 right?, how would it compare to BAE's 1073 besides price of course (I now great river doesn't have the eq)?

Thank you very much for your advices!

Mig

[migsoto]

bump

[kittonian]

Originally Posted by masp84

Ok, I agree I must stick with BAE's 312 for now, maybe that pair of Neve 1073 peacock suggested. I haven't tracked drums but I have done plenty of percussion before in my old studio, I based my choices on all the things I read here, and wanted to have some flexibility and choices as I'm not only tracking drums , but strings, brass, Ac Guitars, ect that's why the preamp madness, about the mics, they are all very cheap and good so I thought I'd be a good thing to buy at least two choices per piece, but I reckon I'll follow your advice, learn how my new room responds, and yea it's true less sometimes is more, with all the things I have to experiment with I might find my self stressed out and losing my hair before I start doing what we like the most, Music.

I need one more Advice, I believe that the Great River for the 500 series is a clone of neve 1073 right?, how would it compare to BAE's 1073 besides price of course (I now great river doesn't have the eq)?

Thank you very much for your advices!

Mig

The Great River is based loosely on the 1073 preamp design (as far as I understand it) but is certainly not a Neve clone by any stretch. So, there is no comparison to a BAE 1073 and a Great River 500 series mic-pre. Two different animals.

[svart]

I'll tell you what I like/use:

SSL alphalink+mixpander
Reaper

Gefell M930 into 1272/1081/1290 into 1176 for overheads


ATM25 into API312/512 for toms
D6/ATM25 into 1272/1081/1290 into symetrix 501/525 for kick
M201/sm57/MC012 into SSL pre or API312/512 into 1176 for snare

Gefell m71 into LA2a for vocals

[Audio Hombre]

i think you might be thinking too much here. i have to agree with the guy who suggested the daking iv and e22s. get 2 daking iv's and that josephson mic (for snare) along with the usual suspect drum mics and you're there in a very solid,less (overly) eclectic drum setup in a far more cost effective way. there's no way you'll be disappointed with the daking preamps on drums.no way.thumbsup

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by kittonian

The Great River is based loosely on the 1073 preamp design (as far as I understand it) but is certainly not a Neve clone by any stretch. So, there is no comparison to a BAE 1073 and a Great River 500 series mic-pre. Two different animals.

Have you ever used the Great River ME1NV before? You're right....its not a neve clone......its better.

[kittonian]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Have you ever used the Great River ME1NV before? You're right....its not a neve clone......its better.

I have used it before, although I do not own one myself.

I do think "better" is a subjective term and one you don't want to throw around, especially when up against arguably the most famous mic-pre/eq in history. Both are nice high-end products but I think you'd be hard pressed to find an engineer that would choose a studio loaded with Great River 500 series mic-pre's over a studio loaded with 1073's.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by kittonian

I have used it before, although I do not own one myself.

I do think "better" is a subjective term and one you don't want to throw around, especially when up against arguably the most famous mic-pre/eq in history. Both are nice high-end products but I think you'd be hard pressed to find an engineer that would choose a studio loaded with Great River 500 series mic-pre's over a studio loaded with 1073's.

There you go again Josh, throwing out a statement that absolutely has nothing to do with the end user. Brand names and hype might mean something to your work, but they mean absolutely NOTHING to mine. Its funny to me, because you're pimping the BAE line, which deserves a lot of credit for being BETTER than original Neve preamps in MANY MANY WAYS, yet somehow, with your thought process in this post, the lightning bolt "N" module is "better" because its famous.

If there was a Great River Console built twenty years ago, that would now be out of production, I bet you'd have 20 MEQ1NV's in your studio, regardless of how it sounded. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw Neve preamps.

[kittonian]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

There you go again Josh, throwing out a statement that absolutely has nothing to do with the end user. Brand names and hype might mean something to your work, but they mean absolutely NOTHING to mine. Its funny to me, because you're pimping the BAE line, which deserves a lot of credit for being BETTER than original Neve preamps in MANY MANY WAYS, yet somehow, with your thought process in this post, the lightning bolt "N" module is "better" because its famous.

If there was a Great River Console built twenty years ago, that would now be out of production, I bet you'd have 20 MEQ1NV's in your studio, regardless of how it sounded. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw Neve preamps.

Wow Adam. For someone who has never spoken with me, nor has any idea about what I am all about, you sure seem to have some negative things to say about me. I don't believe I've said anything negative about you.

Also, I would never say that the BAE stuff is "better" than the original Neve modules because I believe them to be virtually indistinguishable from one another. They are every bit as good as the original Neve modules because honestly, I can't tell the difference between a BAE 1073 and an original Neve 1073 (as long as both are in mint condition). Btw, don't you sell the Great River stuff? Wouldn't that be the same thing you are trying to call me out on?

Bottom line is use whatever works for you, but I still don't believe in calling something "better" than something else when we are at this stage of the game. Both the Great River and the BAE products are very high end and nice to work with. Personally, I still choose the 1073's for my studio and my work. You might choose the Great River and that's totally cool. I still think that if you asked most people in this industry which they would rather have, the answer would be the 1073. Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't think so.

Tell you what. You have fun belittling me online and I'll continue to make records and consult with my customers who trust my opinions and recommendations. I'm not going to waste my time responding to anymore of these types of posts from you.

Good day.