Digitizing Vinyl with UA 2192...BIG PROBLEMS

[eskistudio]

My project is as follows: I have nearly 300 vinyl records in near mint condition that I am trying to digitize while they are still in near mint condition. I have already invested quite a few bucks in this project. Right now, my signal chain is as follows...

Stanton STR8-100 turntable's phono outputs > Radial J33 Turntable DI > Rane BB 22 Balance Buddy > Universal Audio 2192 > Digi002 Rack

So it has been an incredibly frustrating few weeks for me as I have tried to figure out exactly what I'm doing wrong here. Approx $4,000 later I feel no closer to my goal. I'll try and be as specific as possible.

The Radial J33 is taking a phono signal from the turntable and converting it to a consumer -10 line level. The Rane Balance Buddy then takes this -10 line level from RCA plugs and converts it to a +4 line level out of XLR connectors. These run into the UA 2192, which digitizes the signal and passes it on through to TOSLINK optical inputs on the Digi002 Rack. So here's the problem...the signal is too low.

The input level in protools is maybe 1/4 - 1/3 from bottom of the meter, peaking around -25db. The last piece of gear I purchased (the recommendation of an audio specialist) was the Rane BB 22, which I thought would fix the problem (consumer -10 line in to a UA that is expecting a +4 line level). I figured the passive conversion the Rane would boost that signal from consumer to pro line level and I'd be fine. But nope...I even recorded 1 minute of the same part of a record with the Rane BB in the signal chain, and out (with the J33 running straight in to the UA 2192) - THE LEVEL WAS SLIGHTLY HIGHER WITH THE BALANCE BUDDY OUT OF THE CHAIN!!! That doesn't make any sense to me. Any ideas? How can I troubleshoot this? There are tiny analog input trim screws on the 2192 that are adjustable, but it is supposedly factory calibrated at -18dBFS and according to a rep at UA, should not need to be adjusted for my purposes.

The UA rep suggested running the 600ohm XLR outputs out of the J33 to a stereo preamp, but then I'll have a preamp putting its own color into the chain - not to mention the calibration stress I'll have to deal with with each record...making sure the left and right channels have equal gain...shouldn't this process not involve mic preamps at all!?

Last night I troubleshooted some more, taking the 2192 out of the signal chain and instead running the +4 line level out of the line level shifter into the +4 line level inputs of the Digi002 (inputs 5-6, no mic preamps on there). The level seemed at least close to where it was supposed to be...certainly louder than when I was going into the 2192.

I have been a Protools user for 7 years, and been through most of what a home studio user would go through. This is the first time in my digital audio life that I am completely lost. Help me please before I throw my $3000 2192 out the window. Thanks so much.

[eskistudio]

Update: Last night I increased the gain on the UA 2192 with the tiny trim screws. They are now as high as they can go an still seems like the signal isn't loud as it's supposed to be.

[peeder]

Uhm...you have Rane gear and UA gear in your signal path...

...and you blame the UA?

[soundgeneration]

I would follow the UA rep's suggestion: Radial DI / XLR out > stereo mic pre > UA 2192. Will sound fine, do not worry about preamp coloration.

Match gain levels on both L/R channels and leave it for all 300 records, unless you feel like tweaking each one - but keep L/R levels the same.

Also, you will have to reset the calibration on the UA 2192 now that you have adjusted it - do you know how to do that? I would put it back to -18dbfs (or -16dbfs, but you might want to start with factory settings.)

[atticus]

Yeah you definitely need extra gain somewhere. On the Radial site it says that the DI is designed to be connected into a preamp or a mixing console. If I were you I would just rent a really clean stereo preamp and use the mic level out of the Radial into the preamp then into the converter. I personally would try to rent one of the stereo GML or Forssell preamps. Thanks!

[Dan]

It says right on the link you posted that the J33 is a mic level output. You need a mic pre, not a line balancer.

or, FWIW, what you really need is a phono pre-amp. However, if you want to use studio tools, I guess that's a good way to go. The only problem is you're going through a slightly unnecessary gain stage by knocking it down to mic level with a D.I. box. It's not a huge deal, as you probably have more noise coming off the record player anyhow. Hi-Fi phone pre-amps can get pretty pricey as well.

This has nothing to do with the UA. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

[eskistudio]

peeder - Not blaming the UA at all, and a line-level shifter doesn't get any more complex...but to troubleshoot yes, I swapped it with Ebtech and iFace units.

soundgeneration - Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, the only issue I have with a stereo mic preamp is calibrating levels for every record, but I would take your advice and simply calibrate it once - set it and forget it. I will return the UA 2192 to factory calibration, no problems doing that.

David - Thanks for the suggestion. Sounds like the way to go.

Dan - The J33 HAS a mic level output but also has -10 line level outputs...and you say I need a phono pre-amp, but that's what the J33 is, no?

Thanks for all the replies, I already knew that the UA is doing what it's supposed to do, I have just been trying to figure out if the project is possible without having a preamp in the chain. I guess it's not. So my new signal chain really just has to be TURNTABLE > J33 > STEREO PREAMP > 2192?

[Dan]

It depends on how you're hooking it up. Turntables usually need 30-66dB of gain, plus the RIAA curve. It says the outputs unbalanced Hi-Z. You'd still need at least 14dB of gain, and probably a 1-10MOhm input impedance. (I don't know if it's a moving coil cartridge, or what, but I'm guessing the J33 is 47kOhm in, and 10kOhm out, but that's a guess.) The Instrument inputs on the 002 will do that. I'd personally feel much better about using the transformers, and the eq circuitry in J33, and getting my gain from a high quality pre-amp.

The weird thing I just noticed looking a little closer is that I thought all the J series of the radial boxes had Jensen transformers, this box doesn't appear to. Huh, I guess it's just an active balancer.

Here's one box that would possibly give you the right ins and outs for the 2192. (Again check your cartridge type to know what gain you really need.)

Needle Doctor 1-800-229-0644, Esoteric Sounds Rek-O-Kut Professional Preamp MKII

[Dan]

On second thought, maybe we've over complicated this.

Do you just no know the difference between consumer, and pro level?

[TVPostSound]

Stanton STR8-100 turntable's phono outputs > Radial J33 Turntable DI > Rane BB 22 Balance Buddy > Universal Audio 2192 > Digi002 Rack

Remove the Rane, remove the UA, and go to work.

[Reptil]

The Rane has transformers that can result in a slight loss in volume.
That doesn't necessarally make it a POS. It might have it's usefulness elsewhere.
I agree it's superfluous in this chain.

[TVPostSound]

I just thought about this:

Why don't you just plug the SPDIF output of the the turntable in the 002RACK SPDIF input???

The turntable does the RIAA curve, and A/D for you!!!

[Reptil]

LOL
you can now throw it out the window.

[RCM - Ronan]

Just to throw some other perspective into this. If you are transferring stuff into pro tools at 24bit and your peaks are around -25dBfs, you are still recording with a dynamic range that exceeds the dymamic range of vinyl. So this could be much ado about nothing.

[TVPostSound]

Originally Posted by rcm

Just to throw some other perspective into this. If you are transferring stuff into pro tools at 24bit and your peaks are around -25dBfs, you are still recording with a dynamic range that exceeds the dymamic range of vinyl. So this could be much ado about nothing.

Most likely he'll just be making CDs just keep it at the 44.1/16 builtin SPDIF.

[807Recordings]

I am constantly amazed at how much people spend on trying to capture a good vinyl recording with some of the oddest configurations.

Best to date for me.
Prism from my Audio Research of Systemdek.
Great jobs on $500. Goldring (cost of turntable and cartridge), Lavry ADC into Samplitude.

Even good captures with RME Fireface.

DJ decks and I have had them all rarely sound as good. Even modified versions with Rega tone arms.

But I will say my experience is that DJ needles are not up to par and their phono sections. Even the Allen Heath V6 was not as good as a decent phono section. But I did make a good mix at 24/96

*less is more in phono capture**

[Rat Salad]

Acoustic Challenger Final Tool mk II w/sumiko blue point-> Ear 834p (w/volume control) -> Pair of Manley mid pultecs ->Lavry AD blue

I use the manleys in bypass, at the back of the manleys you can to add 6db of gain. The tube line amps are super clean and great!! I also use it to balance the signal before hitting the lavry.
Recording vinyl well is all about the deck and quality gain. The EAR is really loud for a phono stage. Super Musical too. Something like 10db louder or so than the Musical Fidelity XLPS and the Pure sound P10. Its important to get the levels up to about 2/3rds of the digital limit. Vinyl is a dynamic as hell with peaks all over the place, not like modern cds, so you need to be covered for crazy loud drum hits etc.
So when people talk about cd's having more dynamic range than cd's it's kind of theoretical BS. Pretty much all cd's are compressed so much that dynamics mean nothing on CD and everything on Vinyl. I could go on however in my experience it's my guess that most GSer's don't give a monkeys and think of tape and vinyl as "colours" rather than the reality which is completely different representations of storing and listening to sound than digital.
Digital is fine by the way my point is there is so much producers/ engineers can learn from listening from quality vinyl pressings.

Cheers, hope that's usefull.

[kingsize 13]

hi eskistudio,


i think the problem is that you didn't checked if the radial or the rane is for mc or mm signals.

what systam you have?
if you have a low output mc system than some configs will not work.

[Radioman]

Too much gears on the chain...
Use only a Phono Riaa preamplifier and send its output into the UA trimmed for maximum gain, and that's all.
IMHO if you want to take out the maximum from your vinyl choose a very good RIAA preamp and not a consumer opamp based preamp (like the one used in Radial box, for example).
There are a lot of very good RIAA tube or solid state preamp on new or used market, also on DIY.
For example diy-goods ebay user sells some solid state or tubes MM and MC Phono Amp assembled and tested for less than 100 USD too.
You can find on the market many other Phono amp too.

[mwagener]

While we are on the topic, I would also closely check the distortion on the inside tracks with a straight arm turntable. I have the same turntable and when it gets to the last two songs on an LP the distortion is so extreme that I can't even listen to it, absolutely useless for my purpose. I think they are made for DJs doing scratching etc.

[MIKEHARRIS]

Originally Posted by peeder

Uhm...you have Rane gear and UA gear in your signal path...

...and you blame the UA?

Seems like you shoulda gotten an excellent phono pre

[eskistudio]

I'm using the Shure M97xE

Shure * - M97xE Phono Cartridge

[807Recordings]

Originally Posted by mwagener

While we are on the topic, I would also closely check the distortion on the inside tracks with a straight arm turntable. I have the same turntable and when it gets to the last two songs on an LP the distortion is so extreme that I can't even listen to it, absolutely useless for my purpose. I think they are made for DJs doing scratching etc.

Overhang is way to often looked over.
Do a search for a ruler as there are some free pdf files of it out there. I remember one Vestax model some DJ I know was going off about how good it sounded and I suspected as it was not an L type head-shell it could not achieve the correct alignment.

Fact is it could never achieve this but it was the shorter stubby one.
Alignment is to critical to do with just eye balling it and no ruler/tool.

Of course some straight arms can also work well if the pivot points are correct. I used a Rega RB 900 on my technics and it made a world of difference.

[fgp303]

HEllo!

I use 2192 for vinyl digitalizing and its flawless ur problem is ur setup! First drop out this crap from the line Radial J33 Turntable DI and Rane BB 22 Balance Buddy and get some real good RIAA like UREI1122 or SHURE SE-20 then get a good premap after it like focusrite ISA and feed from this the UA2192 it will kick ass belive me, i do in this way

[userofgear]

hello,

both aphex and dbx make little -10/ +4 interface boxes. the aphex is probaby better.

i think you can use one of those between the turntable and the converters, and it will do what you need it to do.


userofgear