Wood floors vs concrete floors

[scorpiwoman]

I have a live room 30X20ft with 11ft ceilings and a concrete floor. I use two large throw down rugs most of the time for tracking drums and the walls are treated well (pretty dead room). The other day I was mastering a CD for this band that recorded in there home studio which had wood floors and I was blown away on how rich the drums sounded. You could tell they used cheap mics and pres but it still sounded better than my room and my high end mics and pres. Any one who can contest to the difference they noticed in concrete vs floor would greatly help me. Thanks

[numrologst]

I think there is more difference in overall room acoustics than there is in whether or not the floor is concrete or wood. Both surfaces are hard and reflective. Obviously they have different properties, but not so much that they will make a drastic difference, with all other variables being equal.

I doubt the difference you are hearing is concrete vs wood.

I'd suggest getting other things in check before you spend $15,000 on a wood floor. My initial thought would be that you would see less than a 1% difference in sound.

I'd spend more money on changing the acoustics of your room, before I looked to a wood floor an an answer.

Obviously the difference between carpet and wood is much more pronounced.

Also the difference in wood vs concrete is much more pronounced if there is insulation under the wood as opposed to the wood laid directly upon the concrete. The first idea is obviously more expensive and much more challenging to engineer.

[scorpiwoman]

Thanks for the insight

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by scorpiwoman

I have a live room 30X20ft with 11ft ceilings and a concrete floor. I use two large throw down rugs most of the time for tracking drums and the walls are treated well (pretty dead room). The other day I was mastering a CD for this band that recorded in there home studio which had wood floors and I was blown away on how rich the drums sounded. You could tell they used cheap mics and pres but it still sounded better than my room and my high end mics and pres. Any one who can contest to the difference they noticed in concrete vs floor would greatly help me. Thanks

I think part of it's down to how wood diffuses the sound because it is fairly irregular in surface so scatters the sound more than a simple very flat concrete floor.

Wood will also absorb the real lo-end vibrations due to its flexibility, while a concrete floor being very dense will reflect all but the lowest of frequencies.

I am totally guessing here! There are plenty of experienced acoustic engineers here who will weigh in shortly with proper science.

It does seem strange to have a room with "dead" walls and a concrete floor?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by numrologst

I'd suggest getting other things in check before you spend $15,000 on a wood floor. My initial thought would be that you would see less than a 1% difference in sound.

Exactly. Cement and wood reflect more or less the same, and many high-end studios have stained cement floors.

--Ethan

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

I think part of it's down to how wood diffuses the sound because it is fairly irregular in surface so scatters the sound more than a simple very flat concrete floor.

This came up the other day at the TapeOp forum, where a fellow had some rough texture wood. Here's my reply:

Shallow surface irregularities have no affect at audio frequencies. A depression needs to be at least 1/4 wavelength to diffuse much sound. So if the depressions are 1/8 inch that means it diffuses from about 27 KHz and higher.

--Ethan

[catastrophic]

Originally Posted by scorpiwoman

the walls are treated well (pretty dead room)

I think the above is the answer to you question.

Why would you want to deaden a 20x30 room? I regularly track drums in a 23x17 room with 12ft ceilings. Other than a few movable baffles it is pretty much untreated. Sounds incredible.

[Karloff70]

Back on the wood are we.....when I wake up in the morning.......

oh, hi Jules.......

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This came up the other day at the TapeOp forum, where a fellow had some rough texture wood. Here's my reply:



--Ethan

I'm glad you turned up Ethan. Your explanation does make allot of sense

But according to your theory a Glass room will sound like a room made from Pine upto 27kHz?

Is that right? Hmmm, I don't know but that doesn't sound right to me.
If diffusion isn't at play what is?

I know nothing about acoustics really. It's an interesting subject though.
I'm pretty sure I could tell the difference between a concrete room and a wood room from a recording.

[NathanEldred]

Most (like 95%) of the wood floor I've seen in studios is clear coated so thick, that I don't see how it's possible that the 'wood' is the physical surface reflecting the sound. It's half an inch of polyurethane, which is closest chemically to plastic than anything else. I have epoxy coated cement in my tracking room, it sounds kick ass IMO. Room dimensions and treatment seem to make a much larger difference IME.

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Most (like 95%) of the wood floor I've seen in studios is clear coated so thick, that I don't see how it's possible that the 'wood' is the physical surface reflecting the sound. It's half an inch of polyurethane, which is closest chemically to plastic than anything else. I have epoxy coated cement in my tracking room, it sounds kick ass IMO. Room dimensions and treatment seem to make a much larger difference IME.

I agree, but I think the density of the material makes quite a difference to the reflection you get back.
Imagine a greenhouse made of glass and a wooden shed. Could you tell the difference blindfolded between them?

How flat a surface is, is only a small part of the story. Hopefully Ethan, or someone that actually understands acoustics will come back and explain further.

[AllAboutTone]

do anything but leave cement floors raw, wow i could not deal with that, some coating would help tons.

[numrologst]

cement is so hip now though. The wood floor we installed in the new studio doesn't have even near a 1/4" of finish on it.

That being said, the live room is 43x29x15. The only parallel surfaces is ceiling/floor. But the ceiling s fully diffused with esr roundfussors. We have no 90* angles and all corners are trapped. Helmholts resonator with bass traps on top and bottom. And we have about 20 4x4 absorber traps. With all the absorbers we have, the room is still very lively.

I guess I am trying to say that it is all about placement... and maybe you need to have just a bit less traps to get your lively sound.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

I agree, but I think the density of the material makes quite a difference to the reflection you get back.

Imagine ... glass and a wood.... Could you tell the difference blindfolded between them?

Hopefully Ethan, or someone that actually understands acoustics will come back and explain further.

He said this above:

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Cement and wood reflect more or less the same, and many high-end studios have stained cement floors.

--Ethan

[MarkRB]

Hi Nathan.

Cheers for the referral.
I had read that post.
It being above the one where you point out the post that I was replying to is very helpful.
Thanks. We all learnt allot from this exchange.

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Hi Nathan.

Cheers for the referral.

I had read that post.

It being above the one where you point out the post that I was replying to is very helpful.

Thanks. We all learnt allot from this exchange.

Cool! Great, awesome thanks buddy!

[MarkRB]

Let's salvage something from that pointless post.

If I blindfolded you do you think you could tell the difference between a 10 x 10 shed made of wood, and a 10 x 10 shed made of concrete?

If not why not?

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

Let's salvage something from that pointless post.

If I blindfolded you do you think you could tell the difference between a 10 x 10 shed made of wood, and a 10 x 10 shed made of concrete?

If not why not?

It wasn't pointless...there was a point.

And I don't know the answer to your theoretical question, I'd have to be there doing the test.

Have a great night Mark.

[MarkRB]

So you can't even theorise on the subject of the thread?

Why are you here?

Have a great night yourself Nathan.

I've never seen concrete in a "high-end" studio. Wood, plaster, hessian and possibly brick or stone seem to be the order of the day in the handful of "proper" studios I've been in.

Is it just aesthetic?

I really don't know, but I don't believe a wood room sounds like a concrete room.

Is this even provable?

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

could tell the difference between a 10 x 10 shed made of wood, and a 10 x 10 shed made of concrete?

So you can't even theorise on the subject of the thread?

Ok, I'll bite.

An all cement room versus an all wood room. Yeah, I'd probably be able to hear the difference because the all (presumably raw in your scenario) cement room would reflect like hell.

Let's step into real life again though. We're talking about wood floor versus cement floor which is only a portion of the room. And, like I said above, most studio rooms don't have 'rustic' style unfinished wood. Their 'wood' floor is covered with plastic (polyurethane). And most studios who have cement floors don't have raw cement, they are covered with epoxy (or maybe stain and sealer).

So we are talking about differently reacting surface material covering the raw material (wood or cement), where that covered raw material is only mayb 25% to 40% of the total surface of the room so an interior constructed completely of each raw surface (as in your theoretical situation) would sound significantly different from a 'typical' studio.

[AllAboutTone]

since we or on this subject, i have a drum room that has cement but covered, is the only way to not carry low levels through the floor is to build a drum floor and put large rubber feet underneath ? so that the drums are not on the floor itself.

[ryancork]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

since we or on this subject, i have a drum room that has cement but covered, is the only way to not carry low levels through the floor is to build a drum floor and put large rubber feet underneath ? so that the drums are not on the floor itself.

You could do a separate isolated slab for your drum room? The studio I work at has 4 iso's surrounding the control room, each on their own floating isolated slab. We have no low end transmission at all. It's pretty remarkable.

On the subject of concrete and wood. Our studio has a treated 20x35 room with 16' ceilings. Used to have a wood floor. For some reason the owner decided to rip it up and stain the cement. Sounds exactly the same. Just my .02

[numrologst]

Originally Posted by ryancork

You could do a separate isolated slab for your drum room? The studio I work at has 4 iso's surrounding the control room, each on their own floating isolated slab. We have no low end transmission at all. It's pretty remarkable.

On the subject of concrete and wood. Our studio has a treated 20x35 room with 16' ceilings. Used to have a wood floor. For some reason the owner decided to rip it up and stain the cement. Sounds exactly the same. Just my .02

Depends on how good the concrete is and how good the ground it sits upon is. I don't have one floating floor in my studio, and there is now low end transmission through the floor. The wood sits on concrete and the concrete is thick and on good ground, no transmission whatsoever through it.

Floating floor is tricky, expensive, and can be tough to engineer and install properly.

[ryancork]

Originally Posted by numrologst

Depends on how good the concrete is and how good the ground it sits upon is. I don't have one floating floor in my studio, and there is now low end transmission through the floor. The wood sits on concrete and the concrete is thick and on good ground, no transmission whatsoever through it.

Floating floor is tricky, expensive, and can be tough to engineer and install properly.

Yea the studio was completed a year before i started there. I wasn't around for construction but i heard it was a pain. Sure does work well though. From what I hear you're completely correct with thick concrete on good ground. Just speaking from my experience with the floating floors.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by ryancork

You could do a separate isolated slab for your drum room?

Do you build that with some type of rubber feet though ? nothing attached to the walls of course.

[numrologst]

yeah it is typically done with neoprene pucks or the branded stuff like u-boat floaters

[MarkRB]

Originally Posted by NathanEldred

Ok, I'll bite.

An all cement room versus an all wood room. Yeah, I'd probably be able to hear the difference because the all (presumably raw in your scenario) cement room would reflect like hell.

Let's step into real life again though. We're talking about wood floor versus cement floor which is only a portion of the room. And, like I said above, most studio rooms don't have 'rustic' style unfinished wood. Their 'wood' floor is covered with plastic (polyurethane). And most studios who have cement floors don't have raw cement, they are covered with epoxy (or maybe stain and sealer).

So we are talking about differently reacting surface material covering the raw material (wood or cement), where that covered raw material is only mayb 25% to 40% of the total surface of the room so an interior constructed completely of each raw surface (as in your theoretical situation) would sound significantly different from a 'typical' studio.

OK cool. Thank you, I appreciate the reply.

As I have stated, I know absolutely nothing about this stuff outside my own experience, which is why I'm asking these questions.

I got interested when Ethan said that concrete sounds like wood (I am paraphrasing slightly).
I know sounds in a concrete room sound very different to the same sounds in a room that is covered in wood. Polyurethane coating or not.

If they have similar reflection characteristics why do they sound so different?

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by numrologst

yeah it is typically done with neoprene pucks or the branded stuff like u-boat floaters

oic, thanks a bunch.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by numrologst

yeah it is typically done with neoprene pucks or the branded stuff like u-boat floaters

I have a ton of practice hockey pucks, will this work or to hard ?

[Arthur]

Originally Posted by MarkRB

I got interested when Ethan said that concrete sounds like wood (I am paraphrasing slightly).
I know sounds in a concrete room sound very different to the same sounds in a room that is covered in wood. Polyurethane coating or not.

If they have similar reflection characteristics why do they sound so different?

The difference in sound between a room made of concrete and one made of wood will not come from the reflection characteristics differences of these materials, but from the ABSORPTION and ISOLATION characteristics. In other words, a wall made of wood typically will let more sound out of the room (acting like a panel absorber too...). Thus the difference in sound. As an example, gluing oak strips directly on concrete walls and ceiling would not change dramatically the sound in a room...

This is why I think the OP should follow the advice some posters already gave him/her: reconsider your walls (and ceiling?) treatment before gluing wood on your concrete floor. Why not put wood panels on your walls with some space behind, for instance?

Hope that helps...