Need help with big consoles

[moeses]

hey guys, i'm about to sell my house and relocate to Atlanta(selling a house in san francisco, and going out there, i'll have a lot of money left over to invest in my studio)
We will be dealing with mostly hip hop/R&B tracking/mixxing/mastering
what are some consoles i should check out?
what are some good Neve consoles, SSL, Api, Amek etc?

i'll be trying out all of the gear, but what are some consoles i should check out?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by moeses

hey guys, i'm about to sell my house and relocate to Atlanta(selling a house in san francisco, and going out there, i'll have a lot of money left over to invest in my studio)
We will be dealing with mostly hip hop/R&B tracking/mixxing/mastering
what are some consoles i should check out?
what are some good Neve consoles, SSL, Api, Amek etc?

i'll be trying out all of the gear, but what are some consoles i should check out?

You'll probably look into SSL's and get outboard mic pre's such as Neve's and API's.

The most important thing to look into is getting a great engineer.

The engineer will make the biggest difference of all.

[moeses]

what's a good ssl to look into?
i'll be playing Mr. Engineer

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by moeses

what's a good ssl to look into?
i'll be playing Mr. Engineer

Have you ever engineered on one?

Very important.

I've heard many a project butchered by people who are engineering on them for the first time.

If you are still intested, look into the new AWS 900.

It looks pretty easy to use and won't cost an arm and a leg if you decide to sell it and or its not for you.

It also has a smaller footprint so you won't need a humongous space or lots of air conditioning to run it.

The wiring looks easy also.

[moeses]

awww, bows head in shame lol
no i've never engineered on one. i know a guy who's using the AWS and i didn't see the big deal about it.
maybe i should go rent a few hours out at his spot and give it a go.

[Igotsoul4u]

If you are doing only hip hop then you should stay in the box (protools). If you have the money for an SSL then you should have the money for a D-control or the new d-command. If you aren't worried about impressing clients with a large console then go with the D-command. A control surface and a fully blown HD rig will cost you considerably less then an SSL (Don't forget all the maintenence that you will need to do on an SSL) I think you would be better off buying a few key pieces of front end gear instead of a giant SSL. You can buy a whole variety of mic pre's and compressors instead of having 48 of the same. I don't know why you would need more then 16 mic pre's in a hip hop situation anyway. Do not waste your money on that stupid AWS900. That thing is a total piece of crap. Buy some ssl k strips and you will be much happier. Anyway. I own a D-control and do mostly hip hop , so let me know if you have questions.

PS For the record, I know the ssl G, J, and K like the back of my hand and I don't miss any of them at all.

[bpatural]

rap is all about the bling bling factor...buy the biggest, most impressive console you can ....if you can afford it, used ssls go for around 75k depending on how many modules, but you'll also have to figure in some serious bucks for wiring and cooling it down with a big AC...oh yeah hope you know a tech in the area too because that stuff breaks down a bit...now that i think a bout it, get an icon, it's impressive, easy to use, and comes with a warranty. then just buy 8 channels of crusty old 4000 pres to run your mpc through, a neve for vox, and maybe an ssl for the stereo buss.
-brian

[moeses]

hmm
i'm not worried about any bling bling factor
and the more i thinka bout it
the more i'm looking to get a big tonelux mix system and have a custom frame built for it by customconsoles

now to find out about automation options with the tonelux

and crusty old 4,000 pre's?

we'll be stocked with Pendulum Audio, Great River, and APi pre's

[moeses]

i think my price budget, was a little less then i thought it would be
i'm looking at around 60g's or less
less being better

[bloodstone]

I guess SSLs are pretty popular for the genres you mentioned, but a lot of people whose opinions I respect and are prominent in the biz tell me SSLs sound like dog meat.

[Ari-M.]

SSL is more of a commitment than just buying the console....I own a 4000 series desk and have already put more than the initial price of the console into it....commissioning costs and overhead are high on these desks....maintanance is a must or the board will get to a point where it's unusable....I would also stay away from ultimation, it's a real maintanance nightmare and has less character than the VCA's (this is of course a matter of opinion). The majority of my work is hip-hop and have found the SSL/VCA character to be a very integral part of the hip-hop sound. However I have not had this experience with anything other than the 4000 series desks (J or K or AWS900 just don't have the "driven" quality of the 4000 series). There is NO substitute for these desks. Thats not saying there isn't "better" or more esoteric sounding stuff out there......but if you crave the "driven" and sometimes "boxy" sound of these desks I would highly advise you look into a clean E or G series SSL. $60k should get you a decent 4032/4048 but also consider commissioning costs (don't plan on installing an SSL and it's associated subsystems for under $30k). All of this is of course opinion and I would HIGHLY reccomend you audition each one of your options before buying......also keep in mind depreciation and de-comisioning costs if you ever decide to sell......

P.S. SSL's are not a true "gearsluts" console, they are however a sound investment (no pun intended)

[lflier]

Originally Posted by RobertPhilbeck

You can go to Southern Tracks or Tree Sound to get some hours on an SSL. Somebody around here has/had an 9098i too, but their name escapes me.

That would've been Stonehenge, in the ZAC Recording complex. Unfortunately they took out the 9098i :( and they now have an SSL. Apparently you can't stay in business these days with anything but an SSL, regardless whether it sounds better . Pisses me off as the 9098i was an incredible sounding desk. All this conformity in general (everyone using PT/SSL) is pissing me off but that's another story...

Still, Stonehenge is a great facility and they do a lot of hiphop so I'd give em a call if you want to get in some hours there...

[thethrillfactor]

Wow so much SSL bashing.

Reading through the thread it would make you think we were talking about mixing ITB.

For what its worth i love mixing on SSL's.

Its my console of choice for mixing.

I have no complaints about it.

I mix rap,rock,pop and everything else on it.

It basically comes down to the operator.

Some people can mix on them and some can't.

I've worked on API's and Neves and i just couldn't mix with the same ease that i can on SSL's.

But i've also been working on them for now going on 20 years.

If 60K is your budget than i would say look elsewhere for a solution that fits more of what you want to do.

[lflier]

Originally Posted by djui5

Where did it go?

Don't know... I was too bummed that it was gone to ever ask. Maybe I will next time I'm there.

Still the best desk I've ever worked on. Sound and flexibility. It's just that no-one wanted to take 5 min's to figure it out.

I can't imagine that. I don't even think it takes 5 minutes - everything about it seems so well laid out and self explanatory. I have no idea why anyone would prefer an SSL but... oh well. I have no idea why a lot of people like a lot of things.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

Do not waste your money on that stupid AWS900. That thing is a total piece of crap. Buy some ssl k strips and you will be much happier.

respectfully beg to differ. when i demoed it (the 1st time through some genelecs) i pretty much thought the same. when i went in with my dynaudios a coupla days later, stike !!! the low en was huge, it had headroom for DAYS (when i overloaded a coupla channels and pinned the stereo buss VUs - it didn't even sigh). EQ extremely responsive, my session sounded fat just going through the thing. i spent several hours on it. the more i used it, the more i liked it. only drawback is lack of dynamics p/channel and it's not expandable, but as to everything else (center section, DAW control, ease of use, work flow), IMO it's brilliant.

some SSL strips will NOT give you a center facilities section of this calibre (or of any calibre for that matter), aux sends, TR, or analog moving fader and cut automation.

PS For the record, I know the ssl G, J, and K like the back of my hand and I don't miss any of them at all.

you may not miss them, or like them, but the three are 'different', to say the least. i who have spent very little time on SSLs noticed a major difference between them. like 'em or not, AFAIC he who can't get a great mix outta any one of these boards (AWS w/PT included) should be doing something else.

i've been working ITB for many years - have owned 80Bs, euphonix and VRs (which IMO sound alot worse than G+). FWIW as the price of used G+s goes down, my dilemma is whether to get an AWS or used G+. either one would make me

[raal]

oops. forgot to mention i would use these consoles primarily for mixing - have a nice assortment of pres, so tracking isn't my main concern here. for tracking AND mixing strictly from the same console, if you don't mind forsaking TR, i might suggest something else, but that's a whole 'nother deal.

[Igotsoul4u]

Originally Posted by raal

oops. forgot to mention i would use these consoles primarily for mixing - have a nice assortment of pres, so tracking isn't my main concern here. for tracking AND mixing strictly from the same console, if you don't mind forsaking TR, i might suggest something else, but that's a whole 'nother deal.

I definetly don't want you to think that I think SSL's are junk. I think they sound great, but at this point mixing in the box allows for a mucher quicker pace and higher output for your dollar, not to mention Protools sounds really great once you get your plugins learned just as well as a trusty piece of outboard gear. The thought of having a private studio and having the SSL's power supply burn out one day freaks me out. You are down for days. People don't realize the upkeep involved in these professional consoles. Professional consoles need professional tech support on a regular basis. Someone could throw your protools rig out the window and the next day you could go to samash and buy a new one that sounds exactly the same. The volume knob on the J cost's $900 alone. Believe me, I never thought I would be saying these things either, but times are a changin.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

I definetly don't want you to think that I think SSL's are junk. I think they sound great, but at this point mixing in the box allows for a mucher quicker pace and higher output for your dollar, not to mention Protools sounds really great once you get your plugins learned just as well as a trusty piece of outboard gear.

maybe i'd differ on the 'PT sounds great' part, but i see your point.

The thought of having a private studio and having the SSL's power supply burn out one day freaks me out. You are down for days. People don't realize the upkeep involved in these professional consoles. Professional consoles need professional tech support on a regular basis.

true.

Someone could throw your protools rig out the window and the next day you could go to samash and buy a new one that sounds exactly the same.

true.

The volume knob on the J cost's $900 alone. Believe me, I never thought I would be saying these things either, but times are a changin.

for all these reasons i'm leaning toward the AWS 900. 600 watts - integrated PS - modular - no caps - sounds GREAT. just wish they offered dynamics w/TR for it and expandability.

a friend just sold a G+ and installed a friggin' Icon (commercial facility)!!!! but is getting a J for another room and is looking for an 8068 (sigh of relief) -- things are definitely changing... but i could easily be welcoming the AWS as a part of that change. no i don't own stock in ssl.

Originally Posted by raal

maybe i'd differ on the 'PT sounds great' part, but i see your point.

true.
true.
for all these reasons i'm leaning toward the AWS 900. 600 watts - integrated PS - modular - no caps - sounds GREAT. just wish they offered dynamics w/TR for it and expandability.

a friend just sold a G+ and installed a friggin' Icon (commercial facility)!!!! but is getting a J for another room and is looking for an 8068 (sigh of relief) -- things are definitely changing... but i could easily be welcoming the AWS as a part of that change. no i don't own stock in ssl.

Who is this guy and is he serious? I happen to know of an 8068 that is available. If he is serious, PM me and I will give you the poop on it.

Originally Posted by raal

no i don't own stock in ssl.

Gez, that's a good thing, since they are up for sale.

[AdAudioInc]

I hope I don't get flogged - but what about an MCI (Sony) 3036 with a few of the API 200 series pre amps and the api eq's that drop in.

Great sound, great flexability, cheap.....

[MIKEHARRIS]

If your not getting a big console...at least get big monitors...in rap...the loudest bass wins !! Genelec 1036's...or lesser speakers with Bag End Subs. Start with a Command D....some SSL strips...let your clients decide/demand...and pay for that SSL..and dont forget the C800G...and the 737. You do the Tonelux/Pendulum...youll be pullin em out just like Jimmy Z had to do with the 9098. We we first built Circle House we put in an automated API...was removed..now there are 3 SSL's and it is probably in the top 5 rap hip/hop studios
in the country...join Puffy out by the pool sometime

[Waylon]

IMHO, if you have a set budget, look at what is available for 75% of that budget ( if 60K, then look in the 45K range) and then find places to go and use those consoles and see if it is worth it...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

I The volume knob on the J cost's $900 alone. Believe me, I never thought I would be saying these things either, but times are a changin.

The volume knob is not as big as concern on an SSL.

Everyone knows to improve the sound of an SSL the first place to start is pulling the monitor section out of the equation.

The monitor section is its weakest link sonically.

Its one of the reason so called purists don't like the SSL sound.

They think its the console but its really the shitty sound monitor section.

Monitoring of the stereo cues sounds way better than monitoring of the main outs.

You'd be shocked when you use an outboard monitor section how much more dynamic the SSL sounds.

And i think the tech issue is a little overblown.

SSL's before the J's are some of the easiest boards to fix and modify.

The J's are trickier because the buckets are tied into the computer.

For rap i wouldn't recommend a J anyway(more along a G+).

[raal]

Originally Posted by Lowdbrent

Who is this guy and is he serious? I happen to know of an 8068 that is available. If he is serious, PM me and I will give you the poop on it.

i'm selling my 8068 - have sent him the details. yes he is serious.

[raal]

Originally Posted by Lowdbrent

Gez, that's a good thing, since they (ssl) are up for sale.

speaking of that, anyone know what's going on there? they keep moving the sale date back - now it's may.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by Igotsoul4u

The volume knob on the J cost's $900 alone. Believe me, I never thought I would be saying these things either, but times are a changin.

Hi

That caught my eye but I must add that I know very little about SSL's...

Anyway, my question would be... do you mean the actual monitor volume potentiometer or the knob that rotates it?

Volume knob is a little ambiguous!

The 4 x 28 position Painton Winkler stepped switch that controlled the monitor level of vintage Neve consoles cost a lot more than $900 when they were new.

Sounds a bargain!

[moeses]

Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS

If your not getting a big console...at least get big monitors...in rap...the loudest bass wins !! Genelec 1036's...or lesser speakers with Bag End Subs. Start with a Command D....some SSL strips...let your clients decide/demand...and pay for that SSL..and dont forget the C800G...and the 737. You do the Tonelux/Pendulum...youll be pullin em out just like Jimmy Z had to do with the 9098. We we first built Circle House we put in an automated API...was removed..now there are 3 SSL's and it is probably in the top 5 rap hip/hop studios
in the country...join Puffy out by the pool sometime

you know what, i hate to say it but i almost agree with you. as far as the SSL/Tonelux thing
for the pendulum and the 737
rappers trust me, because i'm a rapper, and one of the best there is lol

and i'm also known for having a good ear for mixxing hip hop, so if i say to somebody "hey, this is going to sound better" they're going to believe me, while say Mr. Bob Rock and Roll engineer says the same thing, they might not be as inclined to listen to him

but i agree, i should wait, and put that 60k away, and keep adding to it while operating with a small board

[moeses]

Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS

If your not getting a big console...at least get big monitors...in rap...the loudest bass wins !! Genelec 1036's...or lesser speakers with Bag End Subs. Start with a Command D....some SSL strips...let your clients decide/demand...and pay for that SSL..and dont forget the C800G...and the 737. You do the Tonelux/Pendulum...youll be pullin em out just like Jimmy Z had to do with the 9098. We we first built Circle House we put in an automated API...was removed..now there are 3 SSL's and it is probably in the top 5 rap hip/hop studios
in the country...join Puffy out by the pool sometime

just noticed the words CIRCLE HOUSE, it's my dream to have a studio like that. same kind of concept

[theother]

Originally Posted by raal

FWIW as the price of used G+s goes down, my dilemma is whether to get an AWS or used G+. either one would make me

I agree with you. I was thinking the same..... G+ or AWS.

They are both nice and each has it's advantages.

I don't know what all this scary talk about maintenance is though.

A friend of mine has a G+ and the maintenance cost are very very low.

A couple of light bulbs and 1-2 IC's that cost less than £1 every couple of months.

I'm not a electrical trained technician but was almost everytime able to fix minor trouble with the G+. Everything is on sockets so you just swap cards or IC's until you find the culprit. Not that I had to do this very often.

Maybe 1-3 bargraphs (if you have them) need replacement. Just the glasses. Also not very difficult to do.

Ultimation was no problem whatsoever for two years. Never a broken fader.

All that's needed is Caig D5 and G5 spray (contact cleaner) if switches go noisy. Very easy to fix.

Even the electricity bill wasn't as high as we expected. About £180 a month including everything (2x Aircon, desk, studio equipment, kitchen, light..)

Talking about Ultimation and no character, you can always switch the motors off and work with the VCA's. Why would you think Ultimation is a disadvantage?

I very much prefer the G+ with oxygen free wiring, motor faders and improved buss over the older SSL's. They have a much more open sound.

Is it the best sounding desk in the world? Probably not. But it's a nice tool. If you can't get a decent mix together on a G+ you should not blame the desk.

Whereas mixing ITB is a pure nightmare for me. Icon, D-command or any other 'supermouse' won't change a thing. But that's a personal thing.....