Tracking Drums - Which outboard to use?

[bigalw1414]

Hi, my name is Alex Wilson and I am a student at the Art Institute of Seattle. I will be tracking drums in Studio A next week, but I have a limited amount of time to do it (2-3 hours). I'm only doing one song and the drummer is good so it shouldn't take too long, but I won't have time to experiment with different outboard preamps and compressors.

Anyways, I was hoping to get some advice on the best distribution of the studio's outboard gear for the different tracks. All tracks will be recorded to Pro Tools HD3 192 I/O.

Here's my mic assignment so far:

Drums:
Kick In - AKG D112
Kick Out - Audio Technica AT4050
Snare Top - Shure SM57
Snare Bottom - Shure SM57
Hi-Hat - AKG C414-XLS
Ride - AKG 451
Overhead Hi-Hat - Neuman KM 184
Overhead Ride - Neuman KM 184
Rack Tom Top - Sennheiser MD421
Rack Tom Bottom - Sennheiser e609 silver
Mid Tom Top - Sennheiser MD421
Mid Tom Bottom - Sennheiser e609 silver
Floor Tom Top - Sennheiser MD421
Floor Tom Bottom - Sennheiser e609
Room Mic L - Neuman KM 183
Room Mic R - Neuman KM 183

Bass Guitar - Direct

Electric Guitar - Marshall JCM2000 4x12 - Shure SM57, Royer 122

Lead Vocals - Sony C48

Backing Vocals - RODE NTK?, Neuman U87?, Royer 122?

The mic assignments are pretty much set, but which pres and compressors should I use for each channel? This is a heavy rock band ala Audioslave, Deftones, Filter, Queens of the Stone Age.

Here is a list of the available outboard gear (minus FX processors):

Main Console - SSL G4000+ 32-channels w/EQ and DYN on each channel

Mic Pres:
Universal Audio 6176
Summit Audio TPA-200B
2x Vintech Audio x 73i
Focusrite Red 1
Drawmer Tubestation TS1
Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster
Avalon vt737
Grace Designs Model 201

Dynamics:
Klark Teknik DN514
Symmetrix 562E
Universal Audio 6176
Crane Song Trakker
Drawmer Tubestation TS1
Focusrite Platinum Voicemaster
Urei 1176LN
Urei 1178
Drawmer DL251
Manley Stereo Variable MU Limiter Compressor
Avalon 737vt

I know this is a complicated question with many right answers, but I need a starting point for my session since I will be strapped for time. Any suggestions are much appreciated.

Thanks,
Alex

[Jules]

Suggestions

If time is that short

Perhaps dont pisss about with bottom micing the toms?

Try the Vintech on KicK & Snare quickly?

Try the Summit (is it stereo?) on OH?

If those aren't better than the SSL - just do all drums with the SSL and get on with it.

If I were tracking the drums I would be using compression on 2 mic's only - the room mic's... So I wouldnt waste time compressing the other close mic's at all..

(Top Tip - see if you can use the SSL mix bus compressor to monitor the drum group via... or just have it working hard on the mix bus, that will 'cheer up' your set up time, no need to record it, you can recreate the effect in PT later)

Put a call into the the drummer - better still go around and SEE the drummer and dont leave untill he has organised his kit well (new snare head (fitted the night before) decent tom heads - ALL the parts he needs...

Organise it so you and the drummer have several snares to chose from, and if a senior drummer with a better cymbal set is willing to theirs, borrow it.

Recap - drummer having their shit together is most important, messing around with bottom tom mic's / mic pre swapping / close mic compression are all probably not priorities on this session.. Drum tuning and mic placement should keep you & the drummer busy enough...

[StuartMac]

Without going in to too much depth at this stage, my initial impression is simple - particularly since you are tight for time.......too many mics!!!

Personally, in the time frame available I would ditch the KM184s as overheads and swap them for something that will capture a better overall kit sound, like a pair of U87s or 414s. I'd focus on THOSE mics for a little while and count on that being about 60 - 70% of the eventual overall sound. Do a search for "recorderman overheads" on here and try what you see. It's quick, easy, and punchy.

Then I'd add the kick mic and snare mic, and MD421s for the top of the toms only, just to fill in IF and when necessary. If you really want, stick the 184s on the hats and ride, but it's by no means necessary. The 183s might be a little over-excited for room mics as well.

Otherwise, in the time you have (potentially 2 hours for set up AND tracking???) you are just opening yourself up to a world of Phase Pain And Hell with all those mics open. If the room's good, the drummer's good and the kit's good (and - crucially - well-tuned) you should be able to get a killer drum sound with four mics, six if you add the rooms.

FWIW I personally almost never compress any drums whilst tracking. I'd use the Trakker on the lead vocal and the 1176 on the bass.

[StuartMac]

Hey Jules, beat me to it

[ixnys]

Make sure the drummer doesn't overpower when hitting the hi-hats!!!

If you're tracking a good drummer in a good room with well tuned drums, it makes it hard to really go wrong. Keep it simple. Put up a good pair of overheads. I don't think you really need to bother with micing the underside of the toms or the outside of the kick. You probably don't even need the hi-hat or ride mic. Heck I always record the bottom of snare but I never really need it.

I wouldn't worry about compressing on the way in. Leave that for mix time. If you only have a limited time just get a simple but good setup going and leave the rest of the time to focus on a good recording.

[kudzu]

PHASE..PHASE....PHASE....too many mics....Overheads+snare top/btm+bass dr..get that good..add what u need....Senheisser e602 on bass dr, low down inside drum pointing up @ beater impact piont ma "new thang"......

[Ol' Betsey]

Agree about too many mics on the drums. Slim those back.

And considering your so tight on time I'd just use the SSL (GASP!) pre's on drums.

The KM184's might a bit bright. Too bad you can't use the 122's. Like Stuart said, maybe try the 414's instead?

Then maybe the Vintech (1073ish) with 122 on GT. Add a 57/412 to blend.

Maybe the 6176 on bass? I've never tried this but heard the DI (this is the one that has a DI on it, right?) is pretty good (if a little low on the headroom) and, well, I pretty much always use an 1176 on bass anyway.

I think the main thing is not to spend too much time thinking about what your going to use (all the gear there is pretty much top rate) but listening to the choices you've made and making them all work together.

Remember, if you spend too much time faffing about with mic choice, pre choice, placement etc. and then tell the band they have 10mins to record, the stress is going to affect the way they play which is going to affect the sound the instruments create which is going to affect what you end up recording, right?

Have fun and record a kickin' tune.

R.

[ImJohn]

Yes, I agree with everyone else that you have way too much going on, especially for such a short session ( you could easily burn up most of you session just getting the drums mic'd and sounding right )

Here's a shaved down list that should provide you with enough to work with ( and possibly concern yourself with them in the order below so for instance if after you have the overheads, room and snare mics dialed in and you are running low on time you can gauge how fussy you can afford to be with the rest etc ) :

Overhead L - Neuman KM 183
Overhead R - Neuman KM 183
Room Mic center - AKG C414-XLS ( omni )

Snare Top - Shure SM57
Kick In - AKG D112 ( or an ATM25 if you have one )

Rack Tom Top - Sennheiser MD421
Mid Tom Top - Sennheiser MD421
Floor Tom Top - Sennheiser MD421


And as others have said, get the overheads and room mic working together first and sounding as close as possible to what you are after without the spot mics.

Also, you may just want to try using a total of three mics only. Read Fletcher's thoughts on the subject an see what you think :
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html


You probaly wont have time to audition pres much so just use the board. If you think you have time, try using the Vintech for snare and bass and maybe the Grace for overheads.

Best of luck and have some fun!

[picksail]

I'd have to agree with Jules and others regarding kick/snare. The SSL may be a better option. Although, I would venture to say that the Grace may be cooler, since it's a little faster pre-not sure of the slew on those.

In terms of the OHs I'd be torn between color (Vintech X73) and clarity (Grace). I'd run them both up the flag pole and see which one salutes.

It's really unfortunate that you don't have any APIs at your disposal. Those would be my first choice without question.

Keep it simple

Start with kick, snare and overheads, then add mics as necessary. Don't go crazy. A phasey mess will be a quick way to get a failing grade.

[Jay Kahrs]

Yeah man, ditch about 3/4 of those mics and you'll be in way better shape. Start with kick, snare, and an overhead or two, then add tom mics as/if required. Lay off the compression unless you need it, and when you do it's probably going to be on kick & snare. If this is your first time out, KISS. The more mics you have going means more setup time, cables, stands, patching etc. can lead to headaches when shit isn't working.

Since your doing this for a school project (yes? no?) I would assume the goal is to get a song recorded in the three hours you have, not to make it sound amazing, because sorry to say it, but if your in the first couple of at-bats, it won't sound amazing no matter how much gear you throw at it. And FWIW, since most of the stuff you listed isn't among my first choices I'll say this. Pick your mics and go with the console. KISS.

Best of luck with it,

[picksail]

Is the room nice enough to warrant a stereo pair? How much of it do you intend to use anyway?

[Ollie]

If you have a short amount of time, then work on performance and not on putting to many mics on the kit. If you have time you can add some more mics and experiment.

[picksail]

He's tracking to ProTools.

[bigalw1414]

Hey guys,
Thanks for all of the quick replies!

O.K., I'll ditch the tom bottom mics and talk to the A/V cage about switching the KM184s for U87s. Would Earthworks QTC1's or AT4050's work better than the KM183's as room mics? As it stands, we only have one 414 but will be getting another one later in the quarter.

This is a school assignment called (creatively) Multitrack Recording Project. We won't be graded on our final mix, but instead the teacher will be listening to our individual tones on the instruments. So I can use the entire 3 hours to record only drums if need be.

I don't think I was very clear on the time restraints. I have 4 sessions booked.

1. The first is in Studio A with all of the gear mentioned from 9 P.M.-Midnight. I was planning on using this session for tracking drums and maybe guitars if I have time.
2. The second is in Studio C, which is another ProTools workstation with a Control 24 and 2x Avalon vt737s. There is also a treated iso booth with pass-throughs. This session is 4 hours and I was planning on using it for tracking guitar and vocal overdubs.
3. The third is also in Studio C, more overdubs.
4. The last session is back in Studio A for 2.5 hours. This would be for more guitar and vocal overdubs.

Since I was planning on recording the guitars through a Little Labs IBP direct and through a mic'ed cabinet, I'm not really concerned with the guitar sound at all, as I can just re-amp it in a later session. Also, there will only be 2 members of the band for the sessions, the drummer and the guitarist. The drummer will overdub bass and vocals later (he is a better bassist than the actual bassist ).

I will do all of the drum take editing at home. Perhaps I can use the outboard compressors during mixdown in my last session?

OK, new mic assignment list:
Kick - D112-Grace 1
Snare Top - SM57 Grace 2
Snare Bottom - SM57 SSL
Overheads - U87s - Vintechs
Tom tops - MD421s - SSL
Hi-hat - 414 (hypercardiod)-SSL
Room Mics - QTC-1s or AT4050s?-SSL

Bass - 6176

Guitar - Little Labs-Marshall-57 & 122-Vintechs

Perhaps switch the Vintechs and Grace on overheads?

I'll try to post some mp3's after recording the drums and y'all can give me your thoughts/suggestions.

Thanks again!

edit: I just saw a thread where everyone seemed to like the e609 silver on snare so I think I'll try that as I already know what a 57 on snare sounds like.

[Ol' Betsey]

3 hours to track drums? Well that changes EVERYTHING!

But really, at least you have a bit of time to experiment. Not TOO much but a little.

Do you a have a stereo pair of 122's? You could use the 122's on O/H's with the Grace and get the best of both worlds. The vibe from the ribbons and clarity of the Grace.

If not, use the 122 as a FOK mic. They sound great there too!

(Note: I've never used the 122's but the 121's sound great and I'm assuming the 122's will rock too.)

And then maybe use the Vintechs on Kick/Snare.

Anyway, I'll stop talking now and let you confuse yourself!

Have fun,

R.

[Ollie]

Ok,
I do not know the Grace piece, but I definitely prefer Nevish type pres on kick and snare. Neves tend to round out the attack nicely. I hate that friggin D112, but some love it. Beyer M88, AKG D12, EV RE20, Shure SM7B, EV ND86* all sound better to my ears than the D112.

Some might disagree, but going to digitial I think compression can be your friend. Do not over compress, go easy. Just enough to get the right sound. 1176, 1178 and the trakkers could be your friends.

[picksail]

Originally Posted by Ollie

... I definitely prefer Nevish type pres on kick and snare.

In my experience, yes, if it's a 1081, but otherwise I find Neves to be a little sluggish for fast transients. For this application I am a devout API user. Just my opinion, of course.

[bigalw1414]

Ol' Betsy- I already have one 122 reserved for guitar. I can probably check out the other one for overheads. What configuration should I use? Blumlein? If I can't get another 122 I'll use the first one in front of the kick. How far back should I put it safely? I heard if you tilt the diaphram off axis a little bit it helps protect the ribbon from getting damaged.

Ollie - What is it that you hate about the D112? I'm looking for snappy up front kick sound. Of the other mics you mentioned, I have access to the EV RE20 and the SM7A (is this much different than the B). Also there is a Shure Beta 52. Hopefully the 122 or 4050 out in front will be giving me my low end so I'm looking for some punch and attack from the inside kick mic.

Stuart Mac - What si lacking in the KM184s that I would get from the U87s? I also have access to a pair of Microtech Gefell M300s. Would these be a good choice for something?

All the possibilities!!! This is fun!!!

[StuartMac]

The KM184s are very bright - some would say harsh -and will tilt the overall balance of your overheads towards the cymbals irretrievably. Don't get me wrong, the 184s have their uses, I own and use a pair but only on very specific sources (eg dull-ish acoustic guitars). The Gefell M300s are almost certainly a better choice if you're going for mainly cymbals in your overheads.

However, in the time frame you have I think you want the bulk of your sound to be coming from the overheads, and U87s will (I think) give you a more balanced kit sound. The R122s may well sound fantastic in this application also.

[RoundBadge]

All great strategies..The R122's rock for OH'S ..use a windscreen in front of the kick and tilt it down a little, away from the cymbals.
Also a little preproduction time saver:

If you can get access to a PT rig ahead of time [even an LE],
Create a good basic PT session template...roughed in track counts, mic/channel assignments I/O ,
and any relevant track labeling,Tempo map/click...
Headphone sends...whatever ... save to a disc or your session harddrive
You'll have a bit more time getting sounds as opposed to more computer noodling stike

[bigalw1414]

I think I will put the U87s, KM184s, and M300s next to each other (on each side of the stereo pair). I will only use one in the mix, but this way I can listen to how the different mics sound and hear for myself the differences in the mics.

[bigalw1414]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

All great strategies..
Also a little preproduction time saver:

If you can get access to a PT rig ahead of time [even an LE],
Create a good basic PT session template...roughed in track counts, mic/channel assignments I/O ,
and any relevant track labeling,Tempo map/click...
Headphone sends...whatever ... save to a disc or your session harddrive
You'll have a bit more time getting sounds as opposed to more computer noodling stike

Will do.

[helterbelter]

Oh, I've got another suggestion for getting a good "metal" bassdrumsound >
Don't use a filt drumbeater, but a plastic one with a flat beatersurface, in case the drummer has one. This gives you more high and a shorter but very fat low end.

Some drummanufacturers produce "quadbeaters", beaters with four different beatersurfaces, so you can check what sounds best.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

Kik inside =vintech & D112
Snare Top = Vintech & 57
Toms = SSL & Senn md 421
OH= Summit TPA 200 & AKG 414s => manley Vari Mu or Urei 1178
Rooms= SSL & KM 183
Kit Ambience (like 5ft infront)= SSL & AT 4051 => urei 1176
HHat = SSL & AKg451.

Bass= UA 6176

GTRs= Focusrite reds & 57/royer

Vocal= whatever works! maybe Avalon 737 and a faster compressor on strapped on the back of it like a tracker?

TIPS:

PHASE PHASE PHASE!.. chek it out .. if its a G+ its got a phase scope on the desk and run each mic up thru it to check it out. Cos the previous setup was doomed to fail for too many permutations of reasons... given the time constraints.

Search for the recorderman setup.. its timeless and just plain works 100% of the time.

Dont get Into EQ and compression unless you really have a half decent idea about what ur gona be doing? if you are compressing tracks to disk perhaps you can mult or buss them out so u will have a safety version as well goin down at the same time.

Make yourself intimately famialir with the desk, patchbay configs, what works and what doesnt. A little research b4 hand can save and avert major catastrophes on the day. 'Dont go to war sitting down!'

Will there be an assisitant?

But basically the above scenario is a simple yet highly workable one which will net quality results with minimum fuss.

Hope it works out well and let us know how it goes
Cheers
Wiggy!

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by bigalw1414

I just saw a thread where everyone seemed to like the e609 silver on snare so I think I'll try that as I already know what a 57 on snare sounds like.

I think that's smart. If you hate it, you can always go back to the 57 in about a minute.

For whatever it's worth, I love the 4050s as room mics for drums, usually in omni or in am MS configuration.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[bigalw1414]

Hey guys, thanks for all of the help. Just an update: I did the session, but my partner for the project never showed! The artists were also late and the mics that I had reserved were already given out to other sessions which shouldn't have happened. This left me with no stereo pairs for overheads as the U87s, TLM103s, KM184s, Royers, and others were either checked out or gone for repairs. So, I ended up using a Crown SASS for overheads and a RODE NTK and U87 in front of the kit in MS. I did not have time to route all of the outboard, but I was able to use the Vintechs on kick and snare along with the Grace on overheads.

Another crazy thing happened for my session. The drummer's snare drum had NO SNARES! He said they broke about a month ago and he never got around to replacing them. We have Sound Replacer at my school, but I've never used it. Hopefully it will work in this situation.

I had several problems to troubleshoot during the session including improperly connected ELCOs resulting in channels 9-16 not existing, but eventually everthing worked out. We were able to record 5 takes of the conmplete song with the last take being "the one." All of the other takes had mistakes while I was listening to them, but on this particular take I was busy documenting the session so I didn't hear it at first.

I also completed guitar overdubs in Studio C which sound great. For this I used the Royer 122 and a 57, both through a 737.

Bass tomorrow morning!

Thanks again for the help. I definately learned alot from my first experience all alone in an unfamiliar studio with no time to waste.

[RoundBadge]

Right on! and the lesson is?!

Be ready for ANYTHING!..
Bravo.. Well done,
you asked alot of good questions first
and reported back with no whiney/complainy here ....
you did the best you could with the tools at hand!
wish I was half as smart as you when I started out!



....Oh, and tell your drummer he's a loser for not havin' snares on the friggin drum!

[bigalw1414]

Originally Posted by RoundBadge

Right on! and the lesson is?!

Be ready for ANYTHING!..
Bravo.. Well done,
you asked alot of good questions first
and reported back with no whiney/complainy here ....
you did the best you could with the tools at hand!
wish I was half as smart as you when I started out!



....Oh, and tell your drummer he's a loser for not havin' snares on the friggin drum!

Thanks for the encouragement.

Tell the drummer he's a loser? Isn't that self-explanitory? J/K

Anyways, he's a poor college student just like me, so I understand what it's like to convince yourself that your instrument sounds fine when it doesn't. I've been using the same guitar strings on my aoustic for 18 months!