What are the effects and techniques used to make the music jump out at you?

[Big 3rd]

At this point in my short career in engineering, I have a good understanding of using the technique of panning as a tool to create some sort of a stereo field. I must admit that I am learning more about using reverb and delay to contribute to this, also. When I listen to professional rap CDs of today, I notice that they all have several common factors. The one that has me stumped is how the stereo field seems to jump beyond the physical placement of the monitors. I mean the sound jumps out at you, the choruses in particular.

After I've tracked everything, decided what track that I want to "jump out the monitors", I take those selected tracks, pan it hard to one side, use a short delay, and pan the delay to the other side. This gives me somewhat of what I am talking about, but, not that big sound that makes you look over your shoulder. You know the one that sounds like it's coming from behind you. So....... I know some of you know exactly what to do. What the hell is it? (I'm frustrated man!) What is the effects and techniques that are used for this sound?

HELP A BROTHA OUT. Thanks.

[Yutaka]

Spacializer? It is a box with 8 joysticks that can pan things behind your head using a technology based on some binaural theory. Using this, you can pan things behind your head with just a pair of normal stereo speakers. You can automate the joystick moves as well for extra fun.

For a quick experimemt, you can process a sound this way in Soundhack if you are on a mac.

[Big 3rd]

So this is what everyone is using? If so, what are some good units?

[Velvetfreddy]

I guess the place to start might be- good musicians, good chemistry, and a good song?
If you don't have that, then think outside the box, be brave, and bring us something that sounds like nothing we've ever heard.
I trust that this is not the answer you were looking for...

[chadly]

Okay, this might be what you're looking for. (It sounds like your halfway there with the delay technique that you tried.) This is how I do it in ProTools:

1 Set up a delay on an Aux send. Set the left channel to 10ms, the right to 14ms. (You'll have to play with these times)

2 Send the desired "Wide" track on the Aux.

The problem with this is you need to check your mixes in mono to make sure you're not loosing too much.

Also try some of the widening plugs if your ITB to throw the stereo image just a little wider then your speakers.

[RKrizman]

Try this. Pan something hard to the left channel. Feed it to a delay panned hard to the right channel, but have the delay be LESS than a millisecond. Try a half millisecond to start with. If your delay algorithm doesn't have that fine resolution you may have to calculate it in samples (44 samples per millisecond at the CD sample rate), copy the track, pan it to the right and shift it back. In any case, then REVERSE THE PHASE on that right panned delayed signal. Fool with the delay time and the relative volumes and before you can say "Haas Efffect" that signal on the left should jump right past the left speaker.

Have fun.

-R

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by RKrizman

If your delay algorithm doesn't have that fine resolution you may have to calculate it in samples (44 samples per millisecond at the CD sample rate), ...

-R

Explain what you mean here.

[Blast9]

He means that moving something back or fwd by 44 samples will give you 1 millisecond delay... so delaying the track by 22 samples will gve you 1/2 a millisecond delay...

I think my Logic plugs only do 1 millisecond as the smallest unit, so i'd have to delay the copied/inverted phase track with a function in the DAW

[Slipperman]

Originally Posted by Blast9

He means that moving something back or fwd by 44 samples will give you 1 millisecond delay... so delaying the track by 22 samples will gve you 1/2 a millisecond delay...

I think my Logic plugs only do 1 millisecond as the smallest unit, so i'd have to delay the copied/inverted phase track with a function in the DAW

Your logic plugs do down to SINGLE SAMPLE delays if you wish.

In general terms..... any delay known to the cruel digital God or his least impressive creation.... the Digital Man.

"Sample Delay" in "Delays" in the plug in list.

Phase Invert is in the "Gainer" plug in under "Helpers".

Use 'em every dreadful digital day.

Best regards,

SM.

[Offender]

I know exactly what that guy is feeling. I've always wanted to know how its done...but heres sum of my theories that I've tried.

Heres a real simple solution. Basically I think your going wrong from the start. What you need, is two near enuff identical takes of the same rap vocal. Pan one hard left and one hard right. That way, it jumps out at you WAY more than just sum digitally delayed version of the original take.

Also try this. Do about 4 takes. Pan two HL and HR and pan the other two at like....50 each side. Sounds big. Even record another one for the Centre field too if you want.

By the way....Add a high boost on the Left panned and slight High Cut on the right panned. Do ANYTHING to slighty change the sound of the vocals. That way, they'll stick out more in the stereo image. Make sure they arent all bang in time too! A little off sync vocals can be a good thing!

If you have a multi pattern mic...record the L vocals in cardiod and the R in Omni. I havent tried that yet....but when I get my U87, I'll see how it sounds!

Peace

[Offender]

Also...the WAVES stereo width expander helps

[Jay Kahrs]

Whuddever happened to simple things like running a vocal or whatever through a stomp box flanger or phaser and putting that a little to one side of the mix? Or detuning?

[Offender]

^^^
Nooo...thats so fake. I sounds way better with just a near enuff identical take. two takes are never perfectly the same. Never perfectly the same pitch or have perfectly the same timing. It'll always be better than sum arteficial shit IMO.

Also..doing that, your not strengthening the vocal. All the weak parts are still being shared. If you did another take, It might share slightly different qualities than the original...so when they are mixed together, their genes mix to create a super child.... so to speak. Hhaha. Thats the way I see it.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

What the hell is it? (I'm frustrated man!) What is the effects and techniques that are use for this sound?

I REALLY REALLY NEED TO KNOW, SO, PLEASE DON'T BE A KNOWLEDGE HOG. HELP A BROTHA OUT. Thanks.

Technique?

Excellent mixing and an SSL.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Technique?

Excellent mixing and an SSL.

Thrill, what the hell kinda response is that? Read what you just wrote, then, read my opening thread and sit for a minute. Read them both again. Sit for a minute. Then read them a third time. Now, ask yourself, "how the hell was what I wrote going to help his situation?" Do you honestly think I was going to read what you wrote and say, "Hmmm, I never thought of that before. I think I will try that. That seems like an excellent piece of advice. Golly gee, Thrill is smart! " If you are one of those knowledge hogging engineers who got most of there pointers from others but now feel that they shouldn't help anyonelse because they think the person that they taught will one day be just as good or maybe even better than them, then it would have been better for you to not have written anything.

Now if my thread read, "I am looking for the vaguest, most general advice for making the stereo field so wide that it sounds like it's jumping out of the monitors, " then I would think you were a god of engineering music.

Thanks for your generous, helpful, genius advice. fuuck dfegad

[chadly]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Thrill, what the hell kinda response is that? Read what you just wrote, then, read my opening thread and sit for a minute. Read them both again. Sit for a minute. Then read them a third time. Now, ask yourself, "how the hell was what I wrote going to help his situation?" Do you honestly think I was going to read what you wrote and say, "Hmmm, I never thought of that before. I think I will try that. That seems like an excellent piece of advice. Golly gee, Thrill is smart! " If you are one of those knowledge hogging engineers who got most of there pointers from others but now feel that they shouldn't help anyonelse because they think the person that they taught will one day be just as good or maybe even better than them, then it would have been better for you to not have written anything.

Now if my thread read, "I am looking for the vaguest, most general advice for making the stereo field so wide that it sounds like it's jumping out of the monitors, " then I would think you were a god of engineering music.

Thanks for your generous, helpful, genuis advice. fuuck dfegad

As much legitimate advice as you've gotten from other people, that's an a$$hole attitude to have. Does his advice help? Maybe not so much, but take the good with the bad. This place thrives on positive vibes, (hence the very few flame wars).

Keep it clean,

Chad

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Thanks for your generous, helpful, genuis advice. fuuck dfegad

The SSL's has a smiley face sound on the mixbuss.

The sides tend to jump out more because of it.

You hear the highs very seperated from the lows.

Its part of the reason people like mixing on them.

It also makes you work harder to make things gel.

When you compress and Eq on it, it gets exagerated more.

And hence you have to compensate.

Its a give and take thing.

The guys that have mastered it use it to their advantage.

The guys that don't, just in general hate mixing on it.

Is that better?

[thethrillfactor]

[QUOTE=Big 3rd], WHICH IS FINE. But Thrill's response was more like sarcasm in regards to my ignorance to the subject. tutt

[QUOTE]

Totally not true.

If you new how i posted, you would know if i was being sarcastic i would put one of these after.

Or this:

You have to understand you are asking a very general question with many variables involved:

1)Your mix medium -DAW or analog console

2) Plugs or outboard gear for processing

3) Monitoring

4) What you are mixing down to analog or digital

All of these are involved.

I didn't even mention what's done at mastering.

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

The SSL's has a smiley face sound on the mixbuss.

The sides tend to jump out more because of it.

You hear the highs very seperated from the lows.

Its part of the reason people like mixing on them.

It also makes you work harder to make things gel.

When you compress and Eq on it, it gets exagerated more.

And hence you have to compensate.

Its a give and take thing.

The guys that have mastered it use it to their advantage.

The guys that don't, just in general hate mixing on it.

Is that better?

I know that every mainstream artist that has this sound doesn't use an ssl. Some are mostly digital. So for those of us slutz who are not rich and have just an HD system, control 24, great conversion, and a high end front end, what techniques do you suggest?

[Big 3rd]

[QUOTE=thethrillfactor][QUOTE=Big 3rd], WHICH IS FINE. But Thrill's response was more like sarcasm in regards to my ignorance to the subject. tutt

Totally not true.

If you new how i posted, you would know if i was being sarcastic i would put one of these after.

Or this:

You have to understand you are asking a very general question with many variables involved:

1)Your mix medium -DAW or analog console

2) Plugs or outboard gear for processing

3) Monitoring

4) What you are mixing down to analog or digital

All of these are involved.

I didn't even mention what's done at mastering.

Ok, ok, I'm over that now. Let's talk music.

You mentioned the mastering process, does the mastering process create the majority of this effect or is it more in the mix?

[thethrillfactor]

[QUOTE=Big 3rd][QUOTE=thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

, WHICH IS FINE. But Thrill's response was more like sarcasm in regards to my ignorance to the subject. tutt



Ok, ok, I'm over that now. Let's talk music.

You mentioned the mastering process, does the mastering process create the majority of this effect or is it more in the mix?

Its both.

Which one more?

I would say the mixing.

In mastering you can EQ the outsides different than the middle.

[JohnnyTooLoud]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Thrill, what the hell kinda response is that? Read what you just wrote, then, read my opening thread and sit for a minute. Read them both again. Sit for a minute. Then read them a third time. Now, ask yourself, "how the hell was what I wrote going to help his situation?" Do you honestly think I was going to read what you wrote and say, "Hmmm, I never thought of that before. I think I will try that. That seems like an excellent piece of advice. Golly gee, Thrill is smart! " If you are one of those knowledge hogging engineers who got most of there pointers from others but now feel that they shouldn't help anyonelse because they think the person that they taught will one day be just as good or maybe even better than them, then it would have been better for you to not have written anything.

Now if my thread read, "I am looking for the vaguest, most general advice for making the stereo field so wide that it sounds like it's jumping out of the monitors, " then I would think you were a god of engineering music.

Thanks for your generous, helpful, genius advice. fuuck dfegad

Hey Big 3 - this place is a bit of a community new folks have a responsibility to understand the social graces of the members.

I figured Thrill was being cute based on other emails I've read by him. And a lot less of an offensive post than yours above. Heck - even your first post on this thread was defensive - as if you were expecting some heat - then a small comment sets you off - maybe you need to slow down and get into the vibe of this place.

[Offender]

^^^ lol...who cares. I dont think big 3rd over reacted. If he did, I couldnt give 2 shits. Let them sort out their differences I rekkon.
Peace

Big 3rd.

You mentioned the choruses.

Lot of time I do this by creating contrast from the verse.

Single gtr becomes double panned.
Vox get a few more tracks.
Panning get automated.


Create difference.
If you try to make the entire mix all wide and superbad ass, it will only be compared to itself and a room full of bad mother ****ers is just a room full of ****ers. Got to have some regular guys like me to make the BMFs stand out.


D

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTooLoud

Hey Big 3 - this place is a bit of a community new folks have a responsibility to understand the social graces of the members.

I figured Thrill was being cute based on other emails I've read by him. And a lot less of an offensive post than yours above. Heck - even your first post on this thread was defensive - as if you were expecting some heat - then a small comment sets you off - maybe you need to slow down and get into the vibe of this place.

Look, my thread was very specific in its attempts to let those know that I was in need of help. HELP, is the keyword here, not vague posts that take up space. The fact is that I don't know everything, as a matter of fact, even though I am very experienced in making music, I feel that I'm novice in engineering it and this is why I take my threads, as well as my music, very seriously. I want to be good at every aspect of the music making process. Hence, when I don't know something, I ask.

Most of us are here to some day make it in the music business. When I'm not on this forum or working at my job, I'm doing something involving music, as are most of us. So I'm not going to say that what I wrote was unwarranted. However, I will say that I was not intending to make net enemies because I respect and value all of your opinions. I wanted to make a point to those of us who like to do filler work instead of productive work.

Besides, Thrill and I have squashed it already. thumbsup

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by dpasch

Big 3rd.

You mentioned the choruses.

Lot of time I do this by creating contrast from the verse.

Single gtr becomes double panned.
Vox get a few more tracks.
Panning get automated.


Create difference.
If you try to make the entire mix all wide and superbad ass, it will only be compared to itself and a room full of bad mother ****ers is just a room full of ****ers. Got to have some regular guys like me to make the BMFs stand out.


D

Very true, very true. Makes sense. Thanks

[JohnnyTooLoud]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

Besides, Thrill and I have squashed it already. thumbsup

Cool.



We're all here for the same reason brother.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Big 3rd

I want to be good at every aspect of the music making process.

I hope this off-topic comment won't hurt you. But this statement is highly unlikable to accomplish in a lifetime.

Like it's impossible to learn to mix in a forum. It's just impossible. Plus you don't need to be "rich" to afford a day or two in a SSL. Many studios have them, and I'm sure they are willing to negotiate a great price on "off-hours" if you are desperately looking for a specific sound you heard on mainstream records.

Chill out on your attitude, like Thrillfactor said.. you need technique. And quoted from you "when I listen to professional CD's" notice you used the word PROFESSIONAL. These records where probably made by engineers who know their craft very well, from many years of experience. Don't expect answers to these sorts of questions in a forum.

Anyways, Duy Wide is a plug that emulates some sort of beyond the stereo field sensation. If that helps.

[entropy]

Originally Posted by dpasch

If you try to make the entire mix all wide and superbad ass, it will only be compared to itself and a room full of bad mother ****ers is just a room full of ****ers. Got to have some regular guys like me to make the BMFs stand out.


D

brilliant!

[Big 3rd]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

These records where probably made by engineers who know their craft very well, from many years of experience. Don't expect answers to these sorts of questions in a forum.

.

Let me tell you something, if I possessed skills that could be taught to someone that wanted to learn, skills that may have taken me years to master but could take a couple of minutes of explaining, you bet your ass that I won't be the asshole that sits there with their arms crossed and their nose in the air.
That is one of the many problems with this business, let alone this country.