thermionic culture phoenix

[neilwight]

some of you may or may not have looked at a thread i put up a week or so ago regarding a new comp for my mastering setup to replace an old LA2a i sold on.

anyways, the quest is still going on but i seem to be closing in ....finally.

i already have an ssl 384 and a smart C2M that im very happy with. i tried a manley but felt it a bit dull and not that nice on the very bottom end. still good but just not as excited as i had thought.

i'm now starting to fancy the Thermionic culture phoenix. it looks a nice piece of kit (stereo, vari-mu, tube and class A (i think???)) but im not able to get a test of one (im in the UK). has anyone used this? got any feedback to report either good or bad.
its had very good reviews from respectable sources.

i had also been thinking about a gyraf audio G3, seems to be an LA2a in stereo form but with more versatility which can only be a good thing. ive not had any experience of their products though have had some correspondance which was helpful.

theres always the thought ref future resale values though and my thoughts are that the phoenix will fare better in this situation.
while quality is paramount this is still a consideration as good gear is still an investment after all.

had thought about the L2M also but its quite a bit more than these and so since either of these would leave money for an additional EQ in a month or two ive decided to rule it out.

any thoughts anyone has on either of these will be most welcome....

thanks guys.

[84K]

The Thermionic Culture Phoenix comes highly recommended to me by people I trust. I am looking into that box right now aamof. I can tell from experience, If I was going for Mastering I would definitely have: The L2 and The Atomic Squeeze Box.

[pw8888]

I bought a phoenix about 6 month ago.
I LOVE it .great unit !
BIG SOUND . It add's a lot of Air ,depth,very nice highs !
To use it on the mastering side ....I am wondering.
The unit as a very very strong color.
Depend what you are looking for

[neilwight]

when you say lots of colour, is this with everything it touches or just if driven hard.
have you used an LA2a, would you say it imparted more colour than this....or a manley vari-mu?
the literature from thermionic culture had lead me to believe that this unit could be transparent if used lightly and was an excellent choice for mastering work.
any experiences as to impact on a 2 buss with a light touch. does it calm down a bit with its character or not really?

the LA2a had quite a lot of colour and yet is still a feature of a lot of mastering studios. when used appropriately most clients liked the results too
if you drive it lightly then my hope was that the phoenix would fill out nicely but not overpower.
"BIG SOUND . It add's a lot of Air ,depth,very nice highs !"
this sounds like what alot of people want from the manley but my feeling was that it didnt quite deliver.. if the phoenix does this then it may be great.


as i said ive a smart C2M and an SSL so these can do transparent quite well already. i'm looking more for something to add to my armoury that can give me some options though i do take on board that too much colour is really not a good thing. if its over the top no matter what settings then it really will slip down the consideration list...

the Gyraf audio Gyratec 3 seems like it does the LA2a thing but with a bit more transparent character so is still being considered also......just the phoenix seemed sweet (ony from review though) and my financial head is saying it will hold value better also.

[Gravity8058]

I thought the Pheonix sounded great. Kinda big like a U47. The knobs were a little funky, but it added heft, size, and character.

[pw8888]

You are right !Knob are a bit funky !
It's hard for me to do a comparaison (I tried the manley once and never tried the 2-LA2 as a "stereo" unit.)
Everything that goes trought it sounds "better".I use it on the mix buss and sometimes on the drums sub buss.(depend on what type of song...).Soon as you go trough it you add what I said before.That's very very nice.

What do you mean by "calm down" ?
What I can tell you is than the phoenix is litterally "gluing the low" together .(IE kick-bass) without becoming dull.the phoenix even kind of "boost" slightly the high's and everything is then in your face witout being "too much".
I was EXACLTY looking for a compressor to fill a gap I had .(I own 33609,dbx165a,dbx160,160SL,chandler,1176,la3,la4,SSL etc...).
Hope that help.

[neilwight]

thanks guys,

by "calm down" i had meant with reference to not overpowering the mix with its own character if used lightly.
sorry if that wasnt clear.

it is sounding like it might fit the bill perfectly for my wants/needs.....mmmmm

[mac black]

I use it on my mix bus and Its amazing, sometimes I dont compress at all Just push the mix into it really hard to get the valves working (almost touching distortion) .

As for mastering I think it would work like magic on some tracks but Its not clinical.

mac

[Vari-Mu]

Why can't you get one to test? They're a UK company... I would have thought that if you contact them they will at the very least be able to refer you to a dealer or distributor who will facilitate you.

I think the Gyraf X would be a closer match to the Thermionic Culture than the G III as it's also a Vari-Mu design.

Cheers

Vari-Mu (!)

[neilwight]

i live up in scotland and all the dealers are in london. it may be possible to arrange a return if not happy type thing but its not just a simple pop round and audition type situation unfortunately.

i am aware the G10 would be a closer match than the G3 however i wasnt necesarily looking for a vari-mu compressor exclusively. i had thought the G3 looked a useful unit but then read good things ref the phoenix hence the reason for asking as a separate but distinctly differing option.
the G10 also costs a lot more than the Phoenix for no added features i can see. the G3 and phoenix are closer in price range over here not that thats here not there.

thanks for pointing it out though as something to consider

[Vari-Mu]

Originally Posted by neilwight

i live up in scotland and all the dealers are in london. it may be possible to arrange a return if not happy but its not just a simple pop round and audition type thing.
i am aware the G10 would be a closer match than the G3 however i wasnt necesarily looking for a vari-mu compressor exclusively. i had thought the G3 looked a useful unit but then read good things ref the phoenix hence the reason for asking as a separate but distinctly differing option.
the G10 also costs a lot more than the Phoenix for no added features i can see. the G3 and phoenix are closer in price range over here not that thats here not there.
thanks for pointing it out though as something to consider

Well...it's your money, but I wouldn't consider spending north of two grand without trying a bunch of stuff out in my setup first. From past experience , it saves time and costs less than buying a box that is not right for you and having to replace it later. What's the postage cost going to be from Scotland to London, maybe £50?


I don't think the Gyraf X is more expensive than the Phoenix....it's currently priced at DKK 20 000 which is about STG£1800. The Phoenix is over STG£ 2000, no?


Best

Vari-Mu

[neilwight]

the gyratec 10 is coming in at just under £1900 at the moment minus VAT at 25% and postage from denmark to the UK. payment must be made via bank transfer which my bank levies a charge on at the moment also since its abroad.
phoenix can be had for about £1900 all in.

point taken ref the testing though. my experience has been that its been none too easy in the past to sort out but maybe it will be different this time round.
being grumpy and unhelpful is our national pastime after all


gyraf stuff i had to buy first and had 14 days to return to denmark if not happy.
ill see what i can rustle up on the phone tomorrow however.

i think the phoenix is still at the top of my list so i will try to arrange it first of all.

[StuartMac]

Neil, you need to establish a good relationship with one of the better pro audio dealers down south (ie NOT Digital Village or Turnkey. DV have some decent staff but are basically a large chain like Sound Control. I have had nothing but grief in the past with Turnkey). For me, the best dealers are KMR, ASAP Europe and Funky Junk, and I've had loads of demo stuff sent up to try.

Some might charge you shipping both ways, sometimes you might only pay the return - either way it's going to cost about £40 max. Well worth it considering the cash you're going to be spending.

For my money if I already had the Smart and the SSL I'd be adding a Crane Song STC-8 before either the Manley or the Phoenix, but it's a whole different thing really. You should try one, I reckon.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by neilwight

i'm now starting to fancy the Thermionic culture phoenix. it looks a nice piece of kit (stereo, vari-mu, tube and class A (i think???)) but im not able to get a test of one (im in the UK). has anyone used this? got any feedback to report either good or bad.

It's a wonderful unit... it has a texture like no other I've used. As for working out a "demo" on one, they've been in short supply lately but they're starting to come out of the woodwork again. If anyone would know how to arrange a demo for you in Scotland it would be Kevin Walker at Unity Audio 01440 785843. At the same time you could talk to him about arranging to hear the Pendulum Audio OCL-2 and ES-8 which are also fantastic sounding units in 2 buss applications.

Best of luck with your search.

[neilwight]

thanks for that fletcher,
i was kind of hoping you would join in with your (considerable) and honest opinion.

spurred on by other posters ive manged to loosely arrange a demo of this but i will contact unity audio and listen to what they can offer. certainly if i can get the pendulums alongside it will help give a good roadtest and comparison.

do you think the very character the makes the phoenix so good may perhaps make it too strong for mastering work or do you think it can be pretty transparent if used sparingly also.
the very thing that was steering me away from full clean compressors was that sometimes some character can be nice and ive found that its better to have the option and not use it than the opposite.

if the phoenix was going to just blast everything it touched though regardless of how it was used then i may need to rethink.

it can hardly be said that the manley isnt colourful and plenty seem to like its sound.

[StuartMac]

Neil, I only have very limited experience of the Phoenix from a mastering session in Holland (in fact, maybe Darius from Wisseloord will chip in here, as he has the Smart C2, an STC-8, a Manley Vari-Mu and a Phoenix in his console) but from what I remember it definitely has a "sound", albeit a great sound. I'm not sure it's something you'd use on everything, it seemed almost more like a very desirable effect that will work fantastically well when it works at all.

I could of course be completely off the mark, however!

[neilwight]

cheers stuart,
just dropped him a mail.

hoepfully it will sound better than the old soft knee Tl audio C1 i used to have. theres no way i would have ever run anything through it

[StuartMac]

[QUOTE=neilwight]hoepfully it will sound better than the old soft knee Tl audio C1 i used to have. QUOTE]

You too, huh?

[neilwight]

im afraid so, what a total pile of pap it was. totally unclear and general nastiness all around.
glad im not the only one...i feel less dirty now

[Donny]

Been living with the phoenix now for 3 years and ive got to tell u....when its not being used in my chain during mixdown there's something missing in the 'life' of the track. I own the vulture too and like it as much...similar to its sibling its possible to get different tonal flavours out of the phoenix depending on how u drive the input stage. Does wonders on vocals and guitars and on drums its aboslutly gorgeous. Im not a particular fan of it on the mix bus but it sometimes works and when it does...its awesome! My only critique of the Pheonix is its lack of dented steps on the input and output knobs as it makes stereo work a pain and requires fine tuning [at least on my version..may have updated them ..dont know] other than that...it is a fantastic unit and definately worth checking out..

[neilwight]

thanks for all the info guys,

was all set to go full steam ahead on the phoenix demo but im now being offered the pendulum ES-8 at the same price.......
a nice position to be in but this isnt helping my decision making in the least.
guess i will just need to get both up and work through varying material with them.

[Riccardo]

Originally Posted by neilwight

thanks for all the info guys,

was all set to go full steam ahead on the phoenix demo but im now being offered the pendulum ES-8 at the same price.......
a nice position to be in but this isnt helping my decision making in the least.
guess i will just need to get both up and work through varying material with them.

Will probably be a matter of which one first.

Compression characteristics are much more flexible on the ES-8 but it is much more subtle in the character department, Phoenix much more character but nowhere near as flexible in terms of "compression".
One has got a sound the other very little sound, co pletely different beasts, don't be fooled by the fact thet they are both delta-mu based designs.
The Pendulum has transformers on the input only.

Haven't used a Gyraf yet but they could be interesting as well as the Fearn VT-7, the L2M if you like optical L2 style and the Buzz when it will be available (Mr Farrant says it will be "like no other" comp)

Have fun!

[neilwight]

thanks for that riccardo,

im just trying to get a demo lined up with the phoenix and the pendulum OCL-2....there may be an ES-8 to join the party also but id thought that it may be a good opening forray with these two.

should be totally different results but may help provide some answers as to a way forward.....and also the biggie, will the phoenix be too much.

with respect to compression versatility, on paper the new phoenix looks like it should offer more than the ES-8. it has lower noise and can be both slower and as fast both on attack and release. can you explain your reasoning to me please.
is it that the lack of colour allows a greater degree of usage and harder compressing? or that its sound prohibts use on some sources?

agree that the gyraf looks interesting, my only worry is that it may not hold value aswell and its not like im stuck for choice as it is at the moment.
also agree that the buzz is certainly peaking my curiousity.


addition.. just looked at your site and the intro is spookily close to that on my own....how weird lol. i guess theres only so much a person can say

[Riccardo]

Oops I didn't know there was a "new" Phoenix.

You are then probably right about it being as fast as the Pendulum at least on paper.

They are all good choices, just different textures, some boxes have more colour, others are more transparent, all useful.
The transparent ones are - generally speaking - useful on a wider range of material.

The soulful and colourful are great on some - but not all - sources.

I agree about the re-sale value issue (Gyraf) but if they prove to be great boxes who really cares?
You might want to keep them forever. Also you need to take into account that are handmade.....in small numbers...could even turn out to be good value for money...I'l see if I can manage to try the eq at some point.....

You'll probably find that the difference between the Phoenix and the OCL is even greater than between the Phoenix and the ES-8.

Get the one that works for you and then start saving for the other one!

There are a few slutz currently using Gyraf like Lindell, Lagerfeld and Mr Mod "Labs" maybe they'll chime in to help.

p.s. what's your website?

[neilwight]

i dont think its "new" per say.

i read somewhere (sos i think) thats it was under constant revision and improvement although how often these implementations appear is unclear. it did mention that noise and response was at the top of the list and it now (on paper) appears super quiet (-95db at Max. Op. Level) and quick at 4ms

from my (albeit adled) mind, i looked a while back and i dont remember it going as fast as it does now. perhaps this was to address some issues regarding versatility.....perhaps im just fabrcating the whole thing which is certainly plausible

i take your points on gyraf also. i had some really good info from jakob about it and ive certainly not ruled them out. i guess i need to start somewhere on my list so a phoenix and OCL seem a good place.
one thing is for sure, im not complete with just my SSL 384 and Smart C2M and the (actual) hole left by the LA2a needs filling.

it may be that if i go for vari-mu this time, then an opto like the G3 will be joining it later anyways. The EQ does also look tasty though but so does the millenia.

i think i need to get pimping harder

as for website, www.conclusorn.co.uk though its under serious reconstruction at the mo. only front two pages are up while i sit on the fence ref aesthetics

[HomeProducer]

can someone explain the side-chain option on this unit? I dont see one.

[Mgr]

Originally Posted by HomeProducer

can someone explain the side-chain option on this unit? I dont see one.

YouTube - ‪Phoenix Training Demo Video‬‏

[HomeProducer]

Originally Posted by Mgr

YouTube - ‪Phoenix Training Demo Video‬‏

ah ok they are additional knobs you dont find in the manual

thanks