Why didn't DSD catch on?

[jbuntz]

Seems pretty superior to any PCM format as far as quality is concerned. Are there inherent cost factors involved? Is it the inability to process digitally? I heard tascam was going to release some DSD recorders but I don't know much other than that. It also seems like it would be more immune to design flaws since jitter is less of an issue and there is no low pass filter needed.

[seriousfun]

Who says it has failed? Some will argue that it is just another flavor of PCM...and that many of its potential benefits are outweighed by the fact that it works by shifting the inherent noise above our hearing and filtering it. As invented by Sony as an archival fomat, it does work. Others will argue that is sounds more analog than long-wordlength PCM.

Tools are becoming more available. Tascam did announce a DSD recorder that uses DVDs, there is a Pro Tools DSD plugin, ASIO 2.1 includes DSD support, etc. Sony/Philips' mistake may have been to limit the use of their available recorders, but I think it has loosened as technology has developed.

What has failed is the consumer delivery format. More vinyl LPs have been sold over the last few years than SA-CD (especially if you exclude Pink Floyd/Dylan/Stones discs that were mainly purchased as remastered CDs). Same with DVD-A, and now the shootout begins between Blu Ray and HD-DVD even though no music-oriented release format has been specified for either.

[7rojo7]

No reason why you couldn't playback DSD files off of a BluRay disc. holds 28GB and has a bitchin access time and throughput.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

What has failed is the consumer delivery format. More vinyl LPs have been sold over the last few years than SA-CD (especially if you exclude Pink Floyd/Dylan/Stones discs that were mainly purchased as remastered CDs). Same with DVD-A, and now the shootout begins between Blu Ray and HD-DVD even though no music-oriented release format has been specified for either.

The list of available SACD seems to be growing. Acoustic Sounds now lists 1658 titles.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/sacd.cfm

[BrianT]

Why? Because absolute fidelity doesn't matter to 99% of the people who buy music.

Why is that? Because they can't hear the difference. And even if they were capable of hearing the difference, the quality of the systems they listen to music on wouldn't allow them to, for the most part.

It's not rocket science here.

A. SACD is a no show for the world in general.

B. Apple's iPod is the biggest thing to hit music consumers since the CD. Millions are being sold. For every SACD release, there are a thousand AAC encoded songs available online via iTunes.

Do the math. You fiigure what matters to people........fidelity or convenience.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by BrianT

Why? Because absolute fidelity doesn't matter to 99% of the people who buy music.

Why is that? Because they can't hear the difference. And even if they were capable of hearing the difference, the quality of the systems they listen to music on wouldn't allow them to, for the most part.

I find it very funny when engineers say that.. like if they where born with hypersonic special ears that hear things other people don't.

, maybe they cannot pin point the reasons as to why.. but they sure know what sounds better. And I also don't think consumers don't care about how something sounds, they do care more about economics and the convenience of listening to a ipod. Very big difference dude. In other words, people would be happier about having DSD ipod's than the current ones, is what i'm trying to say.

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by BrianT

You fiigure what matters to people........fidelity or convenience.

To me, fidelity.

Which is why I would take an iPod over a SACD player any day.

1-bit A-D conversion...pu-LEEZ.

Who the hell did Sony think they were fooling??

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

To me, fidelity.

Which is why I would take an iPod over a SACD player any day.

1-bit A-D conversion...pu-LEEZ.

Who the hell did Sony think they were fooling??

I get a grin on my face everytime you post.

[De chromium cob]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

To me, fidelity.

Which is why I would take an iPod over a SACD player any day.

1-bit A-D conversion...pu-LEEZ.

Who the hell did Sony think they were fooling??

Me. Apparently I'm totally fooled into thinking my SACDs sound really good. The surround version of DSOTM kicks ass- so does Kind of Blue, Mingus Ah Um and plenty of others.

[krs]

You can put me on that list too...SACD rocks fierce. Listening to orchestral music in 24bit is just OFF THE HOOK. The piano dynamics are so right there (yet still piano).

(I love my iPod too)

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by Jose Mrochek

I find it very funny when engineers say that.. like if they where born with hypersonic special ears that hear things other people don't.

, maybe they cannot pin point the reasons as to why.. but they sure know what sounds better. And I also don't think consumers don't care about how something sounds.

man, it is totally true... i hear things most people dont. we ALL hear things most people dont because that is what we do.

i cant tell you how many times i ask a listener [audiophiles exculded, im talking the 98% of the population] how something sounds and their reply is "who cares? i can hear the song!", and im always "but do you think it sounds good?" to a reply of "man, i dont listen for that kind of stuff you listen for"... or even further, i will point out something in a track most listeners totally miss and exclaim "ive never heard that in there before"

i dont really know how to run a pure A/B blind test with people. i bet if i say recorded something and mixed it digitally and analogally they would listen and go 'yeah?... and?' point being is THEY REALLY DONT CARE. minutae is of little concern over the song.


although, recently i got a CD of which i had a mix from a few years back of a song. this new mix somehow didnt sound as good. no where near as exciting of a mix. it was very conservative whereas the old was big and exciting. my wife noticed immediately [although i must admit i have put a lot of influence into her making her listen to stuff more critically]... will anyone who hears this song without hearing the original mix notice? im not sure.... so maybe in a sense you are right. but it didnt really have anything to do with "sonics" rather production maybe? mix production? will it make or break the song? i dont know.



as to why dsd didnt catch on, i think brianT nailed it. DVD-A hasnt either. DVD-V has. makes you wonder, cause it isnt music driving DVD-V sales.

[raal]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

there is a Pro Tools DSD plugin

whaaa? is it by digi or who, and how does it work? comments by anybody using it?

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by De chromium cob

Me. Apparently I'm totally fooled into thinking my SACDs sound really good. The surround version of DSOTM kicks ass- so does Kind of Blue, Mingus Ah Um and plenty of others.

I think the biggest reason it hasn't gotten off the ground better is the lack of promotion. Sony really dropped the ball there.

I discovered it by getting the sampler disk with a new 5 disk player we got for DVD, after hearing Kind Of Blue with the headphones plugged in. After getting a single player for my music room, I started buying lots more. Kind of Blue is still a stand out. I bought the standard CD just to compare. Hahahaha. It sounds like total crap in comparison. But that isn't surprising. Piano, bass, drums, and horns. DSD makes it sound like they are in the room with you. The CD sounds like the cartoon version.

[Jose Mrochek]

somebody posted something about doing a A/B comparison with regular people a while back on one of the many analog vs digital threads. A/B'ing CD's vs. DVD'A's or something like that. He said that people after 15 minutes or so started looking around and chatting while the CD was playing, but people on the other hand stayed focused while the DVD A was playing.

I also told my brother about this and he said that yeah, he could listen to hours and hours of cassette tapes or vynil without getting tired unlike what happens with a CD(my brother can't hit the doorbell right)

Alphajerk, don't forget that sometimes we may not hear a difference but we feel a difference. And to change my post a bit maybe the big difference is there, maybe engineers hear more things than others.. but we all certainly feel the same way when something is good or when something "feels" better or more natural.

I remember when CD's just came out everyone was raving about the "fidelity" and convenience of course, you could skip tracks etc.. the size.. but everytime the issue of fidelity came up. I'm 100% sure that if SACD's or DVD'As become accesible and with good promotion people will rave about them to. Imagine if movie theaters will start to show movies today without sorround, or crappy speakers. People would be very pissed because they got used to it sounding good.

A good sounding system for the home is still very expensive and unconvenient compared to a ipod or discman.

I remember the first time I went to a Sound Advice store and heard the B&W speakers. It was a shocking experience, and since that day I can't listen to anything else the same way.

My point is , if people would get exposed to this new technology in a massive and convenient $$$ way, people would not be happy with mp3's.

People don't care if it's a mp3 playing or a CD. Because the difference is subtle. They both sound kind of crappy but way better than a cassette tape. So the "i care factor is minimal". But I'm sure the difference is greater when putting a mp3 vs. DVD A.

[alphajerk]

i didnt witness those tests, it could be a total lie for all i know. i would have to have the process of the setup and test it myself.... i mean, where the two versions from the same master? were the levels precisely matched?

listening to vinyl makes me unsettled with the intrustion of surface noise into the recording [and i have heard $5k platters with tone arms and cartridges that cost as much.... through systems costing many times over that.... but a CD i can fully close my eyes and get lost in.

im not sayin to take my word for it, go out to the public and start asking these questions to them.... i would bet you will be suprised by the results.

i mean, just look at the mp3 proliferation....

[Jack the Bear]

I think it's also catalogue. With DSD you are limited to titles. How many copies of "Thriller" and "Tapestry" do you really need??

Until all record companied release their catalogue for DSD the consumer won't embrace it. Same thing happened when we had the MD vs DCC fiasco years ago.

Seems like it's politics that's spoiling it for everyone.

Cheers,

[jbuntz]

A lot of interesting points brought up. I think the whole "tuning the CD out" has been worsened by the white noise affect of L2's and the fact that CD's are usually mastered with less space between tracks than vinyl. Reasong being that pops and crackles or even tape noise fill in the awkward pauses between tracks and the quick edits/crossfades aren't needed. It almost acts as a period while CD's are like a run-on sentence. Ears need a break occasionally whether in macro or microdynamics.

DSD support in protools and ASIO? Why didn't I know about this? Any processing would pretty much have to convert to PCM because any RTAS, TDM, VST etc. is written to work with PCM.

[BrianT]

It's not a case of consumers being unable to develop their listening skills to differentiate formats. They could do that if they wanted to, given a decent system to listen to.

It's a case of consumers not caring about what engineers care about. Music buyers care about:

The Song
The Singer
The Singer's physique
The Singer's haircolor and (lack of) clothes
The Singer's tats and piercings
The Other Bandmember's vibe
The Arrangement
The Production
The Singer's talent
The Singer's Younger Sister
The Annual Seal Slaughter in Canada
The Singer's Younger Sister's talent
The Endangered Peruvian Pygmie Cicada
Lots of Other Stuff
CD vs SACD


In that order.

[alphajerk]

do you even think they know about sacd?

i thought the bottom would be cd or mp3.... or actually 'can i get it on mp3?' up towars the top.

[SnakeCained]

The key here is that SACD can live on the same disc as as standard CD. This means no confusion for those two catergories of unfortunates, the customer and the retailer.

They live in the same racks and look the same, if you have a SACD player you get high quality surround. If you do not you get Stereo CD. The important thing here is "value" from the same disc. Nobody looses out.

DVD-A? nice but a pain in compatibilty issues.

D.S.TO.M kicks ass!! It great to use the same records we used for hifi sales of vinyl in the 70's, cd sales in the 90's and now SACD in the naughties.

Still prefer the quad mix 8-track cartridge

[~ufo~]

funny you should mention DCC

I remember I preferred DCC to MD because you could play regular tapes on it too.
plus I believe it was 18bit vs 16

I prefer SACD to DVD-A because of it's fidelity AND the idea that you can put it in a regular CD player and it will still play thumbsup

so I figured they could have just silently replaced CD's w/ SACD's and people wouldn't even know about it, after a while most people would have bought SACD capable players and bob would be our uncle. of course, they did not do this...

btw. I think the DSD plugin in PT is just for exporting files as DSD and maybe importing DSD files and converting them to PCM....

I still favor SACD over DVD-A

consumer wise, I think people like music DVDs, they have videos or concert footage on them, GREAT!!!!! Now convince the same consumer why he would spend the same amount of money on a DVD that just has audio.
What do you mean there is no video in the DVD ? ? ? ? How stupid is that ? ? ?
Hell, I'm not gonna buy that!
people see DVD and think: digital video disc, not digital versatile disc !

they are so used to DVDs being the new videotape, they won't care about mere music DVDs. they don't care about CDs much either, cos you can get the DVD for the same kind of money.

people just want to be entertained, 99% of the people think it all sounds "thooooooper" <\lisp>

[Brad Blackwood]

Fact is that most people do prefer convenience over fidelity, but modern devices offer both (with a nod towards convenience). 16/441 can sound good, does sound good to most people. That's the bottom line...

[tINY]

Another thing to ponder here: Do you think tou'd hear much difference in fidelity between CD and SACD while driving in your car or sitting in your apartment with $200/pr consumer speakers?


-tINY

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by tINY

Another thing to ponder here: Do you think tou'd hear much difference in fidelity between CD and SACD while driving in your car or sitting in your apartment with $200/pr consumer speakers?


-tINY

YES! Absolutely.

[JTR]

Regarding all the comments about average person's ability to hear quality differences:

Avg person won't notice if they aren't taught to listen:

Consumer electronics companies "educate" the public about their products' whizz-bang features, not about appreciating the esthetics of music reproduction

(you can put Focusrite & their Liquid Channel in that list of companies too)

I stood in the galleries of MOMA in New York recently, and watched literally dozens of people with digital cameras walk up to some of the most beautiful paintings in the world, look at them only through the viewfinder, snap a photo, and walk away without even a second glance

I think that tells you something about public taste/discernment

[Silver Sonya]

Originally Posted by JTR

I stood in the galleries of MOMA in New York recently, and watched literally dozens of people with digital cameras walk up to some of the most beautiful paintings in the world, look at them only through the viewfinder, snap a photo, and walk away without even a second glance

I think that tells you something about public taste/discernment

Now you're going to make me cry. I saw the same thing at MOMA (if you're in NYC, go! It's new and totally amazing!) and I thought "Well, that's odd... they don't seem to want to look at the art... they just want to... snap a pixelated picture of it..."

--- c

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by krs

You can put me on that list too...SACD rocks fierce. Listening to orchestral music in 24bit is just OFF THE HOOK. The piano dynamics are so right there (yet still piano).

24 bit???

I thought the subject was SACD??

Oh, wait, you DID say SACD...huh.

I'm curious: How many people know what DSD really is?

This is a case where the lay consumer actually turned out to be more savvy than the engineering community.

[seriousfun]

Originally Posted by raal

whaaa? is it by digi or who, and how does it work? comments by anybody using it?

Philips DSD Plugin

I haven't used it.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

i didnt witness those tests, it could be a total lie for all i know. i would have to have the process of the setup and test it myself.... i mean, where the two versions from the same master? were the levels precisely matched?

listening to vinyl makes me unsettled with the intrustion of surface noise into the recording [and i have heard $5k platters with tone arms and cartridges that cost as much.... through systems costing many times over that.... but a CD i can fully close my eyes and get lost in.

im not sayin to take my word for it, go out to the public and start asking these questions to them.... i would bet you will be suprised by the results.

i mean, just look at the mp3 proliferation....

I know what you mean.. I always get the "who cares", but that's because most of the stuff they get to hear on the radio or mp3 was recorded decently, or following a certain standard.. And even though a CD is a crappy source compared to others, it still sounds pretty damm good. When I heard that mp3 of yours I thought it sounded great even on mp3. So the format is not even an issue right now.

All I'm saying is that if people would have access to a better quality medium, people would demand it. If it economically and conveniently suits them, people would prefer a SACD than a MP3. Because I believe people do "hear" or "feel" a difference.

Doing tests right now is not even worth it, because no one I've talked to about lately has even heard of SACD. It's a marketing problem at this time, I don't think it's a consumer problem as to why DSD is not making it.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

24 bit???

I thought the subject was SACD??

Oh, wait, you DID say SACD...huh.

I'm curious: How many people know what DSD really is?

This is a case where the lay consumer actually turned out to be more savvy than the engineering community.

I don't know what it "realy" is and I don't care. I actually don't even understand 1's and 0's in digital. Made me sleep in school. I do care about how things sound though.