Skid Row Vocals

Bogner · 4th April 2005

Michael, If you have time could you talk a bit about how the backing vocals on Skid Rows "Youth Gone Wild" were done. I think they sound really good.

Thanks Jim

SoZo · 5th April 2005

N.J.

e

Im from there.........

**mwagener** · 5th April 2005

Sure. I assume you are talking about what we call "the football vocals"

We recorded a total of 24 stereo takes with 10 people in the room (including me, can you tell by the German accent

). I used a x/y mic setup with two Telefunken ELAM 251s (loved that studio) and we grouped people around those mics in different formations. First, most of the "gang" was on the left side of the stereo picture, then the middle, then the right side. Then we did a few takes with everybody further back in the room and then a few with everybody all over the place. We also did a few takes with the tape sped up drastically, so the "singers" had problems reaching the note and staying in time. When that was slowed to normal speed it gave us a low growly (drunken) sound. We did the same by slowing down the tape when recording for a few takes and in normal speed that kind of sounds like girls singing. Whenever working with that many people, and a lot of them not even musicians, you have to compress for safety. The thing to keep in mind is that with compression you will bring up the actual room quite a bit and if you want a different room later in the mix (like a hall or stadium) that original room might get in the way.

Another tip: have the main A&R guy sing along in the room with those football vocals. You'll never hear him on the recording, but it does wonders if you want that particular song as a single

Drumsound · 5th April 2005

Recording advice and business advice in one short post!

Bogner · 5th April 2005

Thanks Michael, as usual, informative and timely. Are you having a workshop this year?

Jim

**mwagener** · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogner

Thanks Michael, as usual, informative and timely. Are you having a workshop this year?

Jim

Thanx.

In fact, yes, there will most likely be a 9 day workshop April 23rd to May 1st, but I need more people to make it happen, plenty of space still open

418 · 5th April 2005

I had no idea all that went into getting it to sound like that. Mind-boggling...

And the A & R guy stuff?

alphajerk · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwagener

there will most likely be a 9 day workshop April 23rd to May 1st

they had better make you a cake then

**mwagener** · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphajerk

they had better make you a cake then

yep B-day April 25th, but I go for Sushi instead

**mwagener** · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by 418

I had no idea all that went into getting it to sound like that. Mind-boggling...

It's sounds a lot more involved than it is. If I do stuff like that today, I use Fritz the head instead of a stereo pair of mics. If you think about it, it has not much to do with "precision/surgical recording" you just want THAT feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 418

And the A & R guy stuff?

It's amazing how some people can still hear themselves in a crowd that big

but once they are on a recording, they'll fight for that song. Producing is 90% psychology...

Waylon · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwagener

It's amazing how some people can still hear themselves in a crowd that big

but once they are on a recording, they'll fight for that song. Producing is 90% psychology...

And at least 50& Shmooze.....

Happy advance Bday Michael!

drundall · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwagener

Sure. I assume you are talking about what we call "the football vocals"

We recorded a total of 24 stereo takes with 10 people in the room (including me, can you tell by the German accent

). I used a x/y mic setup with two Telefunken ELAM 251s (loved that studio) and we grouped people around those mics in different formations. First, most of the "gang" was on the left side of the stereo picture, then the middle, then the right side. Then we did a few takes with everybody further back in the room and then a few with everybody all over the place. We also did a few takes with the tape sped up drastically, so the "singers" had problems reaching the note and staying in time. When that was slowed to normal speed it gave us a low growly (drunken) sound. We did the same by slowing down the tape when recording for a few takes and in normal speed that kind of sounds like girls singing. Whenever working with that many people, and a lot of them not even musicians, you have to compress for safety. The thing to keep in mind is that with compression you will bring up the actual room quite a bit and if you want a different room later in the mix (like a hall or stadium) that original room might get in the way.

Another tip: have the main A&R guy sing along in the room with those football vocals. You'll never hear him on the recording, but it does wonders if you want that particular song as a single

That stuff does sound good holmes.

What did you use on the lead vocal?

How come you remember this stuff so well? I'm trying to remember what I had for breakfast yesterday...

**mwagener** · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by drundall

That stuff does sound good holmes.

What did you use on the lead vocal?

Lead vocal was a Telfukken ELAM 251 (the studio had 6 of them and 8 original C12s) through a Hardy M1 mic pre (John Hardy's prototype with a handwound powertransformer, still got it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by drundall

How come you remember this stuff so well? I'm trying to remember what I had for breakfast yesterday...

I'll forget somebody's name after about 5 minutes, but that stuff somehow sticks

Drumsound · 5th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by mwagener

yep B-day April 25th, but I go for Sushi instead

There's a surprise!

roughly · 6th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by drundall

That stuff does sound good holmes.

What did you use on the lead vocal?

How come you remember this stuff so well? I'm trying to remember what I had for breakfast yesterday...

well there is real chance you didn't have breakfast - if that helps.

MW thanx so much i love hearing this stuff .

jeffrey

John Hardy · 6th April 2005

Quote:

Lead vocal was a Telfukken ELAM 251 (the studio had 6 of them and 8 original C12s) through a Hardy M1 mic pre (John Hardy's prototype with a handwound powertransformer, still got it)

Actually, it is the shield around the power transformer that was handwound, or handmade (by me). The power transformer itself was from a small original production batch of 10, or 25, or something. But, as you know, your M-1 is about as close to unit #1 as you can get. It dates back to 1987. Great to know it is still doing its job. Thanks.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

**mwagener** · 6th April 2005

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Hardy

Actually, it is the shield around the power transformer that was handwound, or handmade (by me). The power transformer itself was from a small original production batch of 10, or 25, or something. But, as you know, your M-1 is about as close to unit #1 as you can get. It dates back to 1987. Great to know it is still doing its job. Thanks.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

Thanx John, great to see you here.

Yes, all my M-1s are still in high demand on every session and work flawless after all those years. I guess by now you could call them "vintage"

. They are my "cleanest" and "fastest" pres, great for anyhting with fast transients, from snare to percussion to vocals. If I want to hear what the mic really sounds like, it's the M-1. It's also THE pre for ribbon mics, it seems to enhance the top end of the mic and it has tons of gain. Actually John modified the first two channels of one of my M-1 for 15 dB less gain, so I could use a Schoeps (hi gain mic) with it and the SM91 on the kick. Great stuff.

John Hardy · 7th April 2005

Quote:

Actually John modified the first two channels of one of my M-1 for 15 dB less gain, so I could use a Schoeps (hi gain mic) with it and the SM91 on the kick. Great stuff.

Michael - I've told the story many times about your M-1 preamp and how you sent it back to me when you had some free time (back in 1987), so I could make some production tweaks to it, and, at your request, to install a 15dB pad on channel #1 (or maybe it was #1 and #2). The way I tell it, this would be your "point-blank" channel, the one that you would use for a Marshall speaker stack with a mic right up against the grill cloth with the amp running full-tilt.

A year or two later I visited you at a southern California studio (Amigo?) while you happened to be recording some guitar solo overdubs. The guitarist and his guitar were (very wisely) in the control room, while his Marshall stack (or whatever it was) was in the studio. Your M-1 was taped on top of the meter bridge of the console. From the moment the solo started until it was over, all four meters of the M-1 went to the exact same level and stayed there, thanks to the guitar amp being pushed to the absolute limits of its power and acting as a limiter of sorts. Channel #1 of the M-1 had the point-blank mic, the other three channels had various room mics.

Well, that's vaguely how I remember it. Let me know if I missed anything! Thanks for all the compliments.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

Sounds Great · 7th April 2005

It is very cool to hear about the heritage of my M1!

For a real treat, put a Gefell M900 in front of your guitar cab and into the M1.

5th April 2005	#3
mwagener High End Moderator Join Date: May 2002 Location: Music City USA Posts: 3,582	Sure. I assume you are talking about what we call "the football vocals" We recorded a total of 24 stereo takes with 10 people in the room (including me, can you tell by the German accent ). I used a x/y mic setup with two Telefunken ELAM 251s (loved that studio) and we grouped people around those mics in different formations. First, most of the "gang" was on the left side of the stereo picture, then the middle, then the right side. Then we did a few takes with everybody further back in the room and then a few with everybody all over the place. We also did a few takes with the tape sped up drastically, so the "singers" had problems reaching the note and staying in time. When that was slowed to normal speed it gave us a low growly (drunken) sound. We did the same by slowing down the tape when recording for a few takes and in normal speed that kind of sounds like girls singing. Whenever working with that many people, and a lot of them not even musicians, you have to compress for safety. The thing to keep in mind is that with compression you will bring up the actual room quite a bit and if you want a different room later in the mix (like a hall or stadium) that original room might get in the way. Another tip: have the main A&R guy sing along in the room with those football vocals. You'll never hear him on the recording, but it does wonders if you want that particular song as a single __________________ Michael Wagener http://www.michaelwagener.com Next Production Workshop scheduled for February 4th through 10th, 2012 Please read reviews about the production workshops here Click here for production workshop DVD updates.

7th April 2005	#19
Sounds Great Gear Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 18,013 1 Review written	It is very cool to hear about the heritage of my M1! For a real treat, put a Gefell M900 in front of your guitar cab and into the M1. __________________ http://soundcloud.com/sounds-great-1 -Rob Kicking around on a piece of ground in your home town Waiting for someone or something to show you the way.

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4th April 2005	#1
Bogner Gear interested Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Carolina Posts: 13 Thread Starter	Skid Row Vocals Michael, If you have time could you talk a bit about how the backing vocals on Skid Rows "Youth Gone Wild" were done. I think they sound really good. Thanks Jim

5th April 2005	#2
SoZo Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 615	N.J. e Im from there.........

5th April 2005	#4
Drumsound Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bloomington Il Posts: 5,029	Recording advice and business advice in one short post!

5th April 2005	#7
418 Gear nut Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: 92354 Posts: 131	I had no idea all that went into getting it to sound like that. Mind-boggling... And the A & R guy stuff?