Shaman´s happy summing box shootout

[Shaman]

Hi guys,

I´ve promised to post some impressions about all the different summing boxes, which I tried during the last weeks in search of my personal favourite.

In the beginning I´d like to make some points clear:

This is NO BETTER and WORSE thread, since all devices had their specific characteristics, which may suit for somebody and not suit for somebody else.

This is also NO Analog vs digital summing thread. It reflects only my personal opinion on mixing. In the best case my impressions may help one or another with their personal search but are NEVER a substitute for own tests.

In my philosophy the search for the right tools on our path allways has been something mystical. I´m not interested in specs our scientific facts behind the different technologys. I just listened with my ears and intuition to find out, which device feels in harmony with me...so while the sword Excalibur was the one for King Arthur, every other knight has to look for its own weapon on his own journey....

Have fun

[Shaman]

Tubetech SSA -2A

Beautiful blue box. Built like a tank. Very nice vintage design. The big knob feels very good.

The Tubetech definetly has its own "Tube" colour. High headroom with "Big" bass sound. High end more in the "silk" department (though I could imagine some finer silk..) Glued the mix together in a nice way.
Perfect for mid centered heavy guitar music.
My impression: Its colour can suit perfect for specific mixes, on others I would prefer something more uncoloured.

I also had the feeling, the tubes make transients a touch slower, so you could loose a bit of Punch.

This is a very straightforward design, and if you´re into its colour, which it obviously has it can be your perfect partner.

It would have ben very interesting to compare the tubetech with the Manley mixer, but unfortunatelly I could´t get one in whole Germany.
There are also rumours about a new Manley summing box....

[Shaman]

Thanks for the test device goes to the german Tubetech distributor Thomas Riedmeier from CML Studio Munich

http://www.cmlshop.de/studioneu6/index.html



Rear view

[Shaman]

API 8200 with 7800

Also a summing box which is not shy to show its own colour. And the well known API colour is a beautiful one. Light accent in the lower mids and beautiful "shimmering" top end.

I especially liked the stereo imaging. A Gigasampler Bösendorfer Piano sample that seemed a bit lifeless before came spectacular to life.

I dare to say, the 8200 brings the signals a bit more forward "into your face", which can be great for some musical styles but not so great for others as I found out. The bottom end is not so round or fat like the tubetech - it´s more defined but still very present.
On Rock mixing this would be my favourite.

I like the concept behind the 8200, which implies it as an expandable mixing / monitoring solution with busses, pans, Solo, Mute...and if you add 7600 channel strips you even can build a real anaolgue console with the time.
Very intelligent and up to date concept.

BTW Tome Laune has an 48 input 8200 system (www.tomlaune.com) , Olli and hollywoodsteve seem to have one as well if I remember right. So perhaps they might share their longtime experiences with this system....


Special thanks for the test rack goes to the german api distributor Charly Bohaimid, Munich also for his very detailed technical backround infos

http://www.charly-bohaimid.de/

[Shaman]

Folcrom. The sonic chameleon.

Tried it with Avalon 2022, Manley SLAM! and Spider Preamps for make up gain.

As you would expect it sounds:

*Very clear and fast with the Avalon
*Very fast and warm with the Slam!
* The Golden middle between both on the Cranesong.

Mike Shippley seems to use one with a Flamingo pre + a Hedd converter.
Whatever may work for him, I didn´t get warm with the folcrom.

Don´t like the design, especially not the knobs. It´s a bit difficult to see from distant, which channel is on mono and which is not.
The other thing is - if I use it with my SLAM! f.e. - I can´t use the SLAM for compression of single signals in the mix. anymore.

Personally I think 1000 USD is too expensive for a passive box (and yes I know, we pay development & ideas, not electronic parts IMHO).
But anyway it´s a great idea and will find many lovers, which it deserves for sure.


Big thanxx for the test device goes to my fellowgearslut and friend RedOne

[Shaman]

"Grandfather" dangerous d2b

As chap and other owners stated right - it´s the most accurate, neutral sounding unit of all tested.
It´s been designed for mastering studios as an uncolouring mix device for stereo stems and one hears that pristine audio quality.

Its greatest strenght - the needle sharp accuracy was, what I didn´t like. Especially on the top end & in the low mid/ bass area I would have wished more "musical" colouring. But I know it´s not been built in that intention.

It´s superfast on transients, has natural stereo and room image and big headroom.
I would compare it to Brauner VM-1 microphones or GML EQ´s soundwise.

I loved its built quality, external power supply, nice YELLOW /GREEN !!! knobs.
The +6db knobs are a very helpful option for weak signals.


Very special thanks goes to Stefan Heger from dangerous distribution Europe, Köln

http://www.dangerousmusic.de

[Shaman]

Spider

I allready owned the Spider and gave the summing section a try.

It is similar accurate like the d2b, which was not my thing so I din´t use it very intensively.

I love the Spider´s preamp/AD/TAPE frontend but I wouldn´t buy it for its summing abilities

[edIT]

very interesting thread. thanks for the info. I think budget wise the Folcrom would be the best bet for me. How do you think the Folcrom would sound amped through a pair of API 512c's?

[edIT]

also did you get a chance to shoout out an Audient SUMO as well? I had one on loan, was pretty excited about the meters but that was about it. It was definitely clean sounding, but the compressor on it was no Al Smart C2 which a lot of people compared it to.

[C.Lambrechts]

thanks for taking the effort to make this test report Shaman.


Can you go a little bit more into detail why you chose the SPL ? Or maybe I'm jumping it and your still typing it ..... either way ... excellent report based on personal perception ..... thanks.

[Shaman]

SPL Mixdream

After all that I was thinking:

I´d like something with:

* The d2b tightness, accuracy and headroom

with the

* musicality of the more colouring units like the api 8200 and tubetech with their big bass and silky, shimmering highs.


I found it in the SPL Mixdream. It´s accurate, has the biggest headroom of all, controlled big bass and very pleasing top end.

I don´t need features like the inserts / limiter.
The stereo expansion sounds quite good in small doses.

My little boy´s heart loves the flickering signal LEDs. Nice design also.
As Phil Buckle pointed out - the unit gets very hot - due to it´s 60 Volt technology.
It´s also the heaviest of all candidates.

It´s expandable for 5.1

To be honest - I didn´t expect something like this from SPL, which is not exactly my favourite gear company. But they did brilliant work on the Mix dream and I strongly recommend to everyone ordering a test unit.


A Big Thanks goes to my friend Armin Dörfler at SMM München for the test device

www.smm-online.de

[C.Lambrechts]

see .... I was too impatient ....

[Shaman]

Conclusion

The mixdream gives me that instant audible gratification when I lay out PT tracks on it. It´s sound is perfect for what I do and I´ll order one in the near future.

To me the differences between all those summing boxes occour, when you are mixing from scratch through them and get all their benefits of higher headroom, signal separation, stereo image, mono signal tightness etc..
This is, where the magic happens and the differences occour.
I´ve been watching myself doing different EQ/compression/FX/fading decisions than I would have done ITB in my PT HD 4.

A/B comparisons between same mixed stems sounded only marginal different.



So of course there will be some who disagree on the importance of external summing boxes, but that´s O.K. No principles or rules here. It´s just music and freedom and I enjoy living in such fantastic times,in which I can have so many brilliant options and share my impressions with others.

I think in ten years we´ll look back and will notice that summing devices will have helped to build up a new type of indipendent, mid sized studio, based around PT and a controller with some nice high end outboard, which helped to produce new music contents, which the bigger studios couldn´t have afforded anymore.

So welcome back in the postdigital revolution !


Hope this all helps a bit.


Happy testing !!

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by edIT

How do you think the Folcrom would sound amped through a pair of API 512c's?

Didn´t try it with APIs. Jules uses such a setup at the moment, so best you ask him.

I hear you - if the folcrom/ 512 sounds same like the 8200 for way less.....
Don´t know. Try it.

[Cluster]

Great thread Shaman, thanks for posting.Do you forsee auditioning the inward connections SBM-2. I've heard lots of good things about it, just not sure if the new Inward Connections unit is the same as the old 2 rack space one.

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by Cluster

Great thread Shaman, thanks for posting.Do you forsee auditioning the inward connections SBM-2. I've heard lots of good things about it, just not sure if the new Inward Connections unit is the same as the old 2 rack space one.

I would have loved to try it, but since it´s not being produced any longer it´s allmost impossible to get it in Europe. Thrill liked it.

However, I found for what i was looking for. Further testing would be a waste of time for me personally, in which I can make great music with the SPL.

[edIT]

I gotta say though if the Folcrom only looked a little bitter cosmetically it might be the icing on the cake. HAH!

[the kid]

Originally Posted by edIT

I gotta say though if the Folcrom only looked a little bitter cosmetically it might be the icing on the cake. HAH!

Thanks for this report, Shaman. Hats off for doing your homework.

In response to your review of the Folcrom, I felt along the same lines as edIT. The strong point of this box is its ability to take on multiple personalities - yet your critique focused mostly on the design deficiencies (granted, these are important considerations).

How would you compare the difference between Folcrom + Avalon and one of the other "uncolored" units, I guess D2B?

Regards,
Mitch

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by the kid

In response to your review of the Folcrom, I felt along the same lines as edIT. The strong point of this box is its ability to take on multiple personalities - yet your critique focused mostly on the design deficiencies (granted, these are important considerations).

How would you compare the difference between Folcrom + Avalon and one of the other "uncolored" units, I guess D2B?

Regards,
Mitch

I felt the headroom to be not equally high. Mixes on D2b & Mixdream had more room to "breathe" than on the folcrom
My personal closest favourite to the mixdream in the folcrom (what a name.....) league would have been the folcrom + SLAM!.....but for that you get two Mixdreams....

But there are Thousands of ways......just followed my own one.

You could also go with the Accurate d2b and put a VariMu behind it for the colour......however the Mixdream seems to make a bit of every device, and makes this bit best.

[the kid]

Originally Posted by Shaman

I felt the headroom to be not equally high. Mixes on D2b & Mixdream had more room to "breathe" than on the folcrom

Thanks. In terms of headroom and the Folcrom, is that a function of the wires within the summing box or the preamp the follows (ie would an amp with better headroom have made a difference) ?

[GYang]

Interesting opinion on analogue summing boxes.
By the way SPL offers now simplified (cheaper) version of MixDream without inserts and limiters (I think although both are excellent features, many would like to have summing only).
I never did such tests and took for granted suggestion from my dealer who tested Mixdream by himself, so I bought one (just recently).
After couple of mixes done (still I do not think I can say that I know this box very well) my impressions are that it is very well thought and manufactured gear. The sound of 16 mixed channels (via Apogee DA16X) has real analogue feel and we do not talk about extremely subtle difference, but concrete character that differs from same mix made in digital box.
As somebody mentioned, adding Mixdream is almost perfect option to mix analogue, but in same time you are not restricted to make digital mix, if for any reason (type of music, time etc.) it is preferable.
At least I can say one thing for sure - digital mixes made in PT HD, Sony DMX 100, Yamaha DM 2000 and AKAI DPS 24 (I have acces to all of them) that are ALL VERY SIMILAR under same conditions, differs from mix made with Mixdream and IMO they (digital) never sounded BETTER or more natural or more pleasant to be preferred over Mixdream. To be frank, in rare situations it might appear that digital is more precise or resolute.
It is not digital vs analogue verdict, but just opinion that analogue summing is viable and welcome option to typical digital DAW based studio.

GYang

[Shaman]

Originally Posted by the kid

Thanks. In terms of headroom and the Folcrom, is that a function of the wires within the summing box or the preamp the follows (ie would an amp with better headroom have made a difference) ?

I have no clue. But all preamps I used with the folcrom have HUGE headroom especially the AD 2022. As I said, it´s just an impression and no fact so I COULD BE WRONG. All those impressions are current "snapshots" and could change after some longer working with one tool.

I tend to think that it takes a while until you really know your gear.
As Gyang mentioned you have to work on quite some mixes and test the response on many different speaker systems before you really know.

Also the "alchemy" between me and the folcrom was just not right - if you understand - not only from the design standpoint - that´s simply enough not to take it (though it´s the cheapest of all options).

But then it was the same situation when I met my wife in the beginning . What´s solid in life ? Everything is in the flow

I may buy one in the future for FX returns or just to have another colour tool in my arsenal.

I would have loved to try the Manley Mixer or the Chandler mixer also, but they were just out of my budget.

[pieter]

I do all my summing through the Spider and I think it sounds great.

It is fairly transparant as Shaman mentioned but you can always use the fat switches and channel tape simulation during mixdown. Also you have the panning, which is really good if you don't want to use 2 channels on the summing box to put your guitar at 30% Left!

Of course, nobody would buy a Spider just for its summing but i'm still amazed at how much bang for the buck this unit is considering what's in there (8 superb pre's, limiting, tape simulation, summing, 10 channel of AD)

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by pieter

10 channel of DA)

You mean A/D and ain't it 8?

[pieter]

It's indeed 10 channels of AD (1 per channel + 2 for the bus) !

[StoneinaPond]

Shaman,

Very nicely done. So thank you for the time and effort.

I also liked your thoughts about the future of these hybrid small to medium systems.

I think in ten years we´ll look back and will notice that summing devices will have helped to build up a new type of indipendent, mid sized studio, based around PT and a controller with some nice high end outboard, which helped to produce new music contents, which the bigger studios couldn´t have afforded anymore.

We do live in an incredibly wonderful time from the Gearslutz point of view.

[Robert Randolph]

Thanks Shaman... I dont feel the need for external summing, when used properly and programmed properly I feel digital is great, but this was very informative and a great way to display people's options.

Im actually thinking of trying out a mixdream now though I dont really expect to be too impressed.

Thanks for your time !! really great

[Jules]

Cool report, great photos!

Thanks!

[michael c]

Great report Shaman. I'm curious if you use the limiter, inserts etc with the Mixdream? They now make a single rack space version of the Mixdream w/o the inserts and limiter that lists around 2k.

Also, I am very interested in the API 8200a which has the summing outs added. In your tests, were you able to find if there was a distinct advantage to 16 channels vs 8 channels when summing proTools?

Thanks.

[84K]

SHAMAN

API or Mixdream? What would you say are the key benefits of each? Thanks!