Shaman´s happy summing box shootout

[Shaman]

Cleanup

[edIT]

very interesting thread. thanks for the info. I think budget wise the Folcrom would be the best bet for me. How do you think the Folcrom would sound amped through a pair of API 512c's?

[edIT]

also did you get a chance to shoout out an Audient SUMO as well? I had one on loan, was pretty excited about the meters but that was about it. It was definitely clean sounding, but the compressor on it was no Al Smart C2 which a lot of people compared it to.

[C.Lambrechts]

thanks for taking the effort to make this test report Shaman.


Can you go a little bit more into detail why you chose the SPL ? Or maybe I'm jumping it and your still typing it ..... either way ... excellent report based on personal perception ..... thanks.

[C.Lambrechts]

see .... I was too impatient ....

[Cluster]

Great thread Shaman, thanks for posting.Do you forsee auditioning the inward connections SBM-2. I've heard lots of good things about it, just not sure if the new Inward Connections unit is the same as the old 2 rack space one.

[edIT]

I gotta say though if the Folcrom only looked a little bitter cosmetically it might be the icing on the cake. HAH!

[the kid]

Originally Posted by edIT

I gotta say though if the Folcrom only looked a little bitter cosmetically it might be the icing on the cake. HAH!

Thanks for this report, Shaman. Hats off for doing your homework.

In response to your review of the Folcrom, I felt along the same lines as edIT. The strong point of this box is its ability to take on multiple personalities - yet your critique focused mostly on the design deficiencies (granted, these are important considerations).

How would you compare the difference between Folcrom + Avalon and one of the other "uncolored" units, I guess D2B?

Regards,
Mitch

[the kid]

Originally Posted by Shaman

I felt the headroom to be not equally high. Mixes on D2b & Mixdream had more room to "breathe" than on the folcrom

Thanks. In terms of headroom and the Folcrom, is that a function of the wires within the summing box or the preamp the follows (ie would an amp with better headroom have made a difference) ?

[GYang]

Interesting opinion on analogue summing boxes.
By the way SPL offers now simplified (cheaper) version of MixDream without inserts and limiters (I think although both are excellent features, many would like to have summing only).
I never did such tests and took for granted suggestion from my dealer who tested Mixdream by himself, so I bought one (just recently).
After couple of mixes done (still I do not think I can say that I know this box very well) my impressions are that it is very well thought and manufactured gear. The sound of 16 mixed channels (via Apogee DA16X) has real analogue feel and we do not talk about extremely subtle difference, but concrete character that differs from same mix made in digital box.
As somebody mentioned, adding Mixdream is almost perfect option to mix analogue, but in same time you are not restricted to make digital mix, if for any reason (type of music, time etc.) it is preferable.
At least I can say one thing for sure - digital mixes made in PT HD, Sony DMX 100, Yamaha DM 2000 and AKAI DPS 24 (I have acces to all of them) that are ALL VERY SIMILAR under same conditions, differs from mix made with Mixdream and IMO they (digital) never sounded BETTER or more natural or more pleasant to be preferred over Mixdream. To be frank, in rare situations it might appear that digital is more precise or resolute.
It is not digital vs analogue verdict, but just opinion that analogue summing is viable and welcome option to typical digital DAW based studio.

GYang

[pieter]

I do all my summing through the Spider and I think it sounds great.

It is fairly transparant as Shaman mentioned but you can always use the fat switches and channel tape simulation during mixdown. Also you have the panning, which is really good if you don't want to use 2 channels on the summing box to put your guitar at 30% Left!

Of course, nobody would buy a Spider just for its summing but i'm still amazed at how much bang for the buck this unit is considering what's in there (8 superb pre's, limiting, tape simulation, summing, 10 channel of AD)

[Teacher]

Originally Posted by pieter

10 channel of DA)

You mean A/D and ain't it 8?

[pieter]

It's indeed 10 channels of AD (1 per channel + 2 for the bus) !

[StoneinaPond]

Shaman,

Very nicely done. So thank you for the time and effort.

I also liked your thoughts about the future of these hybrid small to medium systems.

I think in ten years we´ll look back and will notice that summing devices will have helped to build up a new type of indipendent, mid sized studio, based around PT and a controller with some nice high end outboard, which helped to produce new music contents, which the bigger studios couldn´t have afforded anymore.

We do live in an incredibly wonderful time from the Gearslutz point of view.

[Robert Randolph]

Thanks Shaman... I dont feel the need for external summing, when used properly and programmed properly I feel digital is great, but this was very informative and a great way to display people's options.

Im actually thinking of trying out a mixdream now though I dont really expect to be too impressed.

Thanks for your time !! really great

[Jules]

Cool report, great photos!

Thanks!

[michael c]

Great report Shaman. I'm curious if you use the limiter, inserts etc with the Mixdream? They now make a single rack space version of the Mixdream w/o the inserts and limiter that lists around 2k.

Also, I am very interested in the API 8200a which has the summing outs added. In your tests, were you able to find if there was a distinct advantage to 16 channels vs 8 channels when summing proTools?

Thanks.

[84K]

SHAMAN

API or Mixdream? What would you say are the key benefits of each? Thanks!

[DrShann]

Great reviews. Thanks.

Have you tried the Innertube Audio Sumthang?

It would be useful to know how it compared.

[Jim Roberts]

Originally Posted by Shaman

Didn´t try it with APIs. Jules uses such a setup at the moment, so best you ask him.

I hear you - if the folcrom/ 512 sounds same like the 8200 for way less.....
Don´t know. Try it.

We absolutely love the Folcrom into the API512c's.

I feel the mix really gets the API color that I'm looking for on these rock mixes. Worth checking out for sure.

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by the kid

Thanks. In terms of headroom and the Folcrom, is that a function of the wires within the summing box or the preamp the follows (ie would an amp with better headroom have made a difference) ?

The guy's entitled to his opinion about the color, the knobs, the layout, the price, and the sound. Some people think it's a fantastic bargain that sounds great and looks like a dessert, others think it's an overpriced monstrosity. That's fine.

I don't know what Shaman heard or why he didn't like it, but the headroom of the Folcrom was not the issue. It can handle dramatically hotter signals than any piece of recording gear you own is capable of producing. Being a passive device, there is no clipping point. All you could possibly do is overheat the thing, and that would be very difficult. It can handle RMS input levels on each input channel of +42dBu (that's over 100V), and an output level of +21dB (that's a microphone-level output, by the way).

I'll put it this way: about the only way you could overload the Folcrom is by plugging its inputs into the nearest electrical outlet. Don't do that.

[u b k]

just to add to the fray, i'll chime in and cast my vote for the unit i ended up choosing over the api and d2b: the phoenix audio nicerizer.

the reason was simple: instant neve bottom with emi top, a colorhound's wet dream. i am an unabashed colorhound. the nicerizer sounds like 1973 floyd, it is not subtle, and that's exactly what i wanted. the api sounds like classic rock, as in ac/dc, more forward but not edgy in the least.

part of the phoenix's gorgeousness, to me, is a velvety softening of transients, like the first millisecond or two, and a very tapey low-mid nudge. it transformed my round but plucky nylon string guitar into a glistening heap of brown fur. if i were recording tool or jazz i'd reach for the d2b; if i were recording green day or dave matthews i'd reach for the api. as it is, i'm recording me, a nick drake/james taylor meets massive attack/morcheeba thing.

all these units sound amazing, it's just a question of which flavor syrup you want on your sundae. i like caramel.


gregoire
del ubik

[C/G]

Awesome thread. thumbsup

[84K]

Hey Shaman, whenever you make it out to NYC let me know. I'll buy you a drink

[ulysses]

Originally Posted by Shaman

I actually liked the colour - if only the knobs would have been green or yellow... and PEACE to you ulysses - I think you developed a fantastic product for many people - it´s just that I heard what I heard and felt what I felt

You can't argue with your ears nor your feelings. Listening and making up your own mind is all we can ask of anybody.

Green and yellow buttons aren't too hard to come by. I chose white and red because those are the "standard" colors for left and right, as seen on turntables and other stereo equipment.

Thanks for the honest review and kind words.

[3rd world order]

Originally Posted by pieter

I do all my summing through the Spider and I think it sounds great.

It is fairly transparant as Shaman mentioned but you can always use the fat switches and channel tape simulation during mixdown. Also you have the panning, which is really good if you don't want to use 2 channels on the summing box to put your guitar at 30% Left!

Of course, nobody would buy a Spider just for its summing but i'm still amazed at how much bang for the buck this unit is considering what's in there (8 superb pre's, limiting, tape simulation, summing, 10 channel of AD)

i wouldn't say NOBODY.. *cough*

i'm torn right now between getting a folcrom/hardy "cheap-now" setup and saving up for a folcrom/spider/avocet and having a studio cleanup sale.

hmm!

if i had the spider i could actually go back to tracking bands too..

double hmm!

i think the avocet is an eventuality regardless

the advantages of the spider/folcrom are really too much for me to pass up, money aside... some possibilities:

1- MV
2- kick
3- snare
4- bass
5/6- folcrom (all the rest)
7/8- rev return

or take all the drums thru another folcrum and use the spider's inserts to smash em thru a buss compressor.. smart c2 anyone?

i could see making use of the fat amp/pans/meters/hipass/tape sim/master fader & A/D for sure..

folcrum + spider + avocet = wicked master section ???

that's what i'm thinking...