Tracking with 2 compressors - how and why?

[DrShann]

Hey guys.

I've noticed some of you mention that you use 2 compressors (or 1 dedicated limiter and 1 compressor) during tracking, one limiting (i.e. fast) and the second slower compressing.

Could someone clarify the theory behind doubling up like this, and the benefits it brings over using a single box?

Thanks.

[Drumsound]

Spreading xdB of conmpression over two units lests each one do less gain reduction, thus it less noticible, yet the level sits a little more evenly.

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by Drumsound

Spreading xdB of conmpression over two units lests each one do less gain reduction, thus it less noticible, yet the level sits a little more evenly.

I've been wondering about this also( don't mean to hi-jack thread). Drumsound, can this be accomplished with one stereo (dual/mono) compressor? Out of one channel into the other, with just mono source of course!

[bobby_z]

Drumsound, would you care to elaborate on that? Sounds very interesting.

[antti]

Or using 1 comp for more 'transparent' compression/limiting whereas
using the 2nd one for shaping the sound's envelope and/or give a sound
a little colour.

[Tim L]

Double compression's an old trick... and a good one! Vocals and 2 mix is where I find myself using this the most. thumbsup

[triez]

Try putting a peak limiter first in the chain, and set it to just take care of the really loud peaks only, and then after the limiter you put your compressor.... As the peak limiter is now taking care of the lumps and transients, you can set up your compressor for musicality rather than control.

[Fletcher]

The idea is that 3 compressors doing 3db of gain reduction is going to be less noticable than one compressor doing 6db of gain reduction... and let me add from personal experience that 3 or 4 compressors each doing 3-5 db of gain reduction can be a gift from above!! [the caveat being that they can't be shit compressors... no ART, DBX, nor TL Audio shit in the audio path!!]

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by bobby_z

Drumsound, would you care to elaborate on that? Sounds very interesting.

Basically what Fletcher said. It was a suggestion from him when I first bought my Drawmer 1969. I sent him an email and asked what things he was digging with it besides 2-mix. He said he liked running it in series for tracking vocals. I think he mentioned some general settings, but I don't remember.

I just listened to a mix I did tonight and I might go in tomorrow and run a second compressor from the first and back the first off a bit (on the lead vox).

You can use two channels of the same unit or two different units. I often track vocals with the Manley VoxBox pre and limiter (lately not the compressor...) and then feed into the '69, hen hit the tape deck.

[NathanEldred]

One thing to think about, is by using two compressors during tracking, is that you have to be extremely careful not to limit the dynamic range of the source so much that you have no options left during mixdown. Part of the fun and challenge of mix is having tracks that can still be sculpted to fit together in different ways that may change from song to song. If the track is compressed into a brick you'll have to automate the life back into it (or maybe not depending on the type of music).

[u b k]

I'm into cascading multiple stages of gentle compression. 2-4db of lightning fast limiting on a vocal's peaks, into 1-2db of slow attack soft knee compression, to tape. Then another 4-8db med. attack while mixing, 0-3db on the 2bus. Everything low ratio, 1.5 or 2:1.

Keeping the ratios low, attacks on the slow side and dialing the releases to breathe with the pulse results in a luscious, thick sound, totally controlled, but with enough transients and motion to still be full of life.

Nathan is dead on: keep it conservative while tracking, you can't undo compression but you can always add more later. Fletcher's on it too: top-notch comps are indeed a gift from god. Then again, so are top notch pre's, and eq's, converters and a summing bus... tape's not too shabby either, come to think of it.


u b i k

[Drumsound]

Top notch talent is even better!

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

I've been wondering about this also( don't mean to hi-jack thread). Drumsound, can this be accomplished with one stereo (dual/mono) compressor? Out of one channel into the other, with just mono source of course!

When I do this sort of thing, I prefer to use different units for the same reason that I like to use different units on a source for tracking and mixing. If you use the same unit, it's often just like turning the threshold down (and/or the ratio up), especially if it's a box without a lot of adjustments. If you use two different units with low ratios and different attack and release characteristics, you're more likely to get a less "stamped" sound.

Another thing to keep in mind when using several units is that compression is mulitplicative. Using one unit set to 4:1 and one unit at 6:1, you're ultimately getting a ratio of 24:1, not 10:1.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Snatchman]

Originally Posted by cgarges

When I do this sort of thing, I prefer to use different units for the same reason that I like to use different units on a source for tracking and mixing. If you use the same unit, it's often just like turning the threshold down (and/or the ratio up), especially if it's a box without a lot of adjustments. If you use two different units with low ratios and different attack and release characteristics, you're more likely to get a less "stamped" sound.

Another thing to keep in mind when using several units is that compression is mulitplicative. Using one unit set to 4:1 and one unit at 6:1, you're ultimately getting a ratio of 24:1, not 10:1.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Hey, thanks alot Chris. That make sense.!

[cgarges]

No problem. Glad to help.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[chadly]

Originally Posted by cgarges

Another thing to keep in mind when using several units is that compression is mulitplicative. Using one unit set to 4:1 and one unit at 6:1, you're ultimately getting a ratio of 24:1, not 10:1.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

That's not exactly the case. At certain parts it may be cumulative 24:1 (at it's loudest, perhaps) and less during quieter material. With multiple compressors, you get individual threshold levels. That's how I look at it, anyway.

[cgarges]

True. Thanks for explaining it a bit better!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[faeflora]

Basically the harder you hit a compressor, the more colorful it gets. Compression to my ears even in the best compressors can kill the tone of a signal. I assume this is because the harmonics get all ****ed up and the characteristic of the sound changes.

Regardless, in general, if you want to quickly hear the "sound" of a compressor, make it smack up some signal.

If you want more transparent compression though, then it's much harder to hear that "sound" of a comp when you're only affecting a few db. Chain up the units and you can knock off many db without any "compressor distortion".

Just try it out yourself---

With one compressor, compress at 4:1, 8db compression and listen.

Then chain two compressors each set at 2:1 with 3db compression and listen.

You'll have to adjust the attack and release. I don't always try to peak-compress first. A good part of the time it sounds better with peak-compression afterwards.

This is especially useful on vocals. Vocals tend to sound the worst when overcompressed. That's why people like Pensado use many different compressors on specific frequency ranges for just one track. It's hard to get a vocal loud and clear and compressed without destroying the good bits.

[Wiggy Neve Slut]

try this on the 2 mix with an Al smart C2 and then an Avalon 747... im not much of an avalon fan buit it kills for rock music.

I remember a while back Fletcher mentioned that the C2 and API 2500 was a 'scary good' combination.

Wiggy

[max cooper]

Originally Posted by Snatchman

I've been wondering about this also( don't mean to hi-jack thread). Drumsound, can this be accomplished with one stereo (dual/mono) compressor? Out of one channel into the other, with just mono source of course!

I think cgarges et. al. have answered this pretty good, just in case though, one of the best things about using two comps to acheive the compression you would have normally gotten with just one compressor is that instead of the compression artifacts of the one comp, you get a little of the artifacts of one plus a little of the artifacts of the other. BTW, I prefer this technique for mixing rather than tracking, but it's the same basic idea. To answer Snatchman's question, a dual mono unit wouldn't be as good to me, since although you could set the two channels differently, they're still the same compressor. I mix at a studio where there's a Tube Tech LCA-2B, which I hadn't warmed up to until I tried it in conjunction with the API 525's...just a little compression with each unit on a vocal and it's real nice

[coreman]

I guess all of this explains why RNC in Super Nice mode works so well. thumbsup

[Sigma]

i ride the input to a limiter in tracking...mic out into channel input [with meter reading buss out ]BUSSED to limiter who's output feeds a second channel [whose meter is read channel output ]whose DO feeds the tape machine

first fader i ride limiter input, second fader i ride post limiter to tape
3-5 db of squash by limiter but alot of gain change with the rides especially word fall off at end of sentences

[dubrichie]

oh god yeah, especially mixing ITB, if you're using 2-bus dynamics processing having 3 or 4 gentle layers in series can get much better results than 1 processor trying to do all the work.

it can work brilliantly on all kinds of things, for example beefing up kick drums when combined with parallel compression.

[Bat Head Sound]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

[the caveat being that they can't be shit compressors... no ART, DBX, nor TL Audio shit in the audio path!!]

I think it depends on the dBx unit. The cheaper ones certainly not, but their high end compressors are actually really nice (i.e. 160SL).

[tvanveen]

Ok, so maybe I'll try this today.

I'm doing some female vox and have a MC77 and a Distressor. In what order would you set them up, recommended settings?

I'm thinking maybe MC77 1:4 fast attack and release into the distressor in opto mode? Maybe?

tv

[GYang]

C2 into MC77 (or TFPro P38) into Phoenix (or TT CL1A or Atomic Squeeze Box)
Each with small touch of compression.
Can't be nicer than that.

[Purusha]

I am using my dual 1176 in chain when recording vocals all the time, sometimes up to 7dB of GR on slow setting and another 3dB for fast peaks after the slow one. For new metal it's a great combination. Both ratios 12:1!

[dokushoka]

I find it useful to use a combination of a compressor with a slow attack/release with a comp with fast attack/release. Sometimes I'll follow this with a limiter as well.

When doing overdubs I often put a Distressor last in the chain just to prevent overs on the crappy 001 converters I have to use often.

Or if the compressor I have first is a little slow, I will follow it with one for just catching the stuff the first one missed and setting my release on the second one very fast as to get out of the way for anything less.

Compression good.





D

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by dpasch

When doing overdubs I often put a Distressor last in the chain just to prevent overs on the crappy 001 converters I have to use often.

You must be running your gain staging/mic preamp VERY hot if you are coming anywhere near full scale on the 001. I swear those converters are internally set at -20 dbFS, which means your outputting some serious juice from the preamp. Just a hunch, if you back off your preamp more than a bit (pun intended), your ITB mixes will sound a lot better for a couple of reasons.