Any using M/S 2-buss compression?

[Darius van H]

I was doing a soul album today and did quite a lot of M/S 2-buss compression to get the sound we were looking for.....

....and it got me a-thinking:

Anyone doing this at mix-time?....mixing thru a comp in M/S mode?....it's such a different sound and can be really special, but i've never done it at mix time (i don't really mix).........anyone?....what comps are working for you? (i was doing it with my C2).

[Darius van H]

and just to add:

anyone ever tried hitting tape in M/S?

[wilcofan]

After discovering some of the short-comings of my API 525 pair in stereo I've been exploring using them in M/S. Am I correct to think I can encode any stereo buss, hit the API's M/S, then decode them back?

I've only ever thought of M/S in a microphone context.

Or better to ask, can a pair of compressors not as well suited for stereo compression (ie, original Distressors) be used better in a M/S encode?

[EngineEars]

I love it. When I only have enough great stuff (i.e. Plutec/Fairchild) left over in a mix to process the two bus in mono I throw it on the mids. A mastering engineer told me about applying distortion to the sides signal and when it needs a push that really works also.

I'd love to try out the new Dangerous S&M with a Culture Vulture.

[Mike Caffrey]

I'll be trying that shortly...

I just finished a mix tonight using the Dangerous S&M box. I used it solely for EQ on a heavy rock tune. The sides with the a 1073 and the center through a Chandler TG Channel. I had a lot of HPF on the side and then in the boosted a lot of what I cut on the sides. It had the effect of creating a lot more distinction between the wide guitars and the bass.

I had it S&M after the stereo compressor initially, because I was only expecting to use if for adding width. Then after I started playing with the EQ, it sounded cool, but not pefect. Once I swapped the order and had the compressor (1968) compressing the output of the S&M I was happy.

Now that I think about it, I had a Transient Designer on the sides too.

The whole thing is so punchy and there's a nice space carved out for the vocals. I had them up and down a couple of dB and they were clear throughout the whole range.

I'm very curious to see how well this punch survives the inevitable L1.

[balanceman]

I recently bought the TFpro p38 stereo compressor. this works in m/s and sounds great! I have been exploring more m/s stuff lately as well - eq the mid only, etc. . the last time I tried it, it wasb't working for me, but I hope it will end up being a trick I can use more frequently. . .

[wilcofan]

I'm loving it on 2-buss. I tried the API's for a while but the CL1B (mid) and LA2a (side) are living on the 2-buss lately.

I'm hitting tape and EQ in M/S also and it really gives some flexibility I hadn't had before. I've been letting the side distort on tape while the mid is conservative, works well.

I've also been limiting before decoding back and liking that too.

In fact, I've started some low-key mastering too for local ITB mix engineer and having him mix into a plugin compressor on the master. When he renders the files for me I get him to disable that plugin and he was thrilled at the M/S I just described.

It's the first time I've found something consistent for the 2-buss where the mix just gets so clearly bigger and wider when A/B'd. Both my own mixing and outside mixes.

[Darius van H]

Sweet!

[ajcamlet]

whats needed to encode/decode the signal?

[Darius van H]

Originally Posted by ajcamlet

whats needed to encode/decode the signal?

http://www.lundahl.se/pdfs/datash/1588.pdf

[MAKmusic]

A question for you guys compressing after m/s encoding during mixdow. When I tried this the center channel was much louder than the side channel after encoding, do you change levels with your outboard to get them closer, or do you mainly compress the center channel and leave the side one less effected?

[wilcofan]

whats needed to encode/decode the signal?

I encode coming out the DAW master with Kelly Industries Stereo Tools Plugin. It's free and works well.

Through all my outboard changes I'm monitoring through the converters with another instance of the Stereo Tools live.

A question for you guys compressing after m/s encoding during mixdow. When I tried this the center channel was much louder than the side channel after encoding, do you change levels with your outboard to get them closer, or do you mainly compress the center channel and leave the side one less effected?

Right after encode you'll see a lower level on the Side.

Because I use tape between my compressors and DAW coming back for decode, my compressor output levels are set to what the tape wants to see. Mostly I hit the tape hard with the Side.

When I'm coming from the tape (through EQ but no gain changes) to the DAW I set the Mid for a healthy level and then set the level of the Side to give the stereo image I feel works.

I could hit both the Mid and Side on the converters the same but then I'd need to adjust the levels in the DAW's matrix for the proper stereo image. I like doing it on the way into the DAW, giving up some bits on the Side, so I don't have to think about it again.

[Darius van H]

That's right, you have to just listen and forget the meters, hitting the processing at the level you need to achieve the effect you want....then balance the level again after processing in order to achieve the correct mid/side balance.......kind of like the old days when engineers had to actually listen rather then stare at a computer screen all day long!

[Jules]

Are you guy using this technique to

a) repair faulted mixes?
b) get control not possible any other way?
c) Both?
d) other (explain please) ?

Can you list of tools required / or that can help with this type of work?

Explain more?

[wilcofan]

Originally Posted by Jules

Are you guy using this technique to

a) repair faulted mixes?

No. I can imagine ways isolated Mid and Side elements can work with Surgical EQ and Multi-band compression but I don't use them. Not because of any predisposition against "fixing" but rather the fact I treat the process like the thread suggests. It's 2-buss effect for me.

b) get control not possible any other way?

Yes. I found M/S out of necessity by not having any compressors capable of linking in a conventional stereo sense. But once I heard the effect of more distortion on the Side against the Mid, I was hooked.

There is so much focus on the Mid elements when M/S is working for me. It's like a painting where the subject is clear and the rest is smudged a bit.

[kosi]

Originally Posted by Darius van H

http://www.lundahl.se/pdfs/datash/1588.pdf

Sorry, can you enlighten us dumbasses, wailing in the shadowy grounds of ignorance and simple stupidity, who can't even read those simple schematics and not even might imagine anything about M/S configs and their belongings ?

[lowswing]

Hi Darius,
Did you use different compressors on the M ans S?
if yes, didn't it shift your stereo image in a strange way (we discussed it before)

[Darius van H]

Hey Guy....

.....i've used different comp's on the M/S before, but not very often....i rarely do M/S comp in mastering in any case.......M/S eq is a different story

Yes is does shift your stereo image, but in a different way from unlinked normal compression......

.......in normal unlinked, you get a kind of image "jitter" moving left or right (often not a problem actually).....

........with M/S, you get a sort of symetrical width jitter, where things jitter in width as well as tone and level....

....again, not really a problem if you're doing it for effect-y mixtime compression and are going for something different anyway.