Apogee Symphony system with Apogee converters and Logic - user opinions?

[666666]

Just did some searching but did not find any juicy threads packed with good info / opinions of the Apogee Symphony system (Logic Pro 8, Mac computer with Apogee Symphony PCI card and Apogee converters) - specifically looking at the AD16X / DA16X converters.

Would love any and all feedback regarding this system.

On the surface, it appears to be a great alternative to PT-HD. From what I've seen of Logic Pro 8, seems like pretty capable software. And the AD16X / DA16X converters seem to get fairly good reviews in general, aside from their supposedly "analog-ish" color... seems that the the Symphony system is designed to be a turn-key type set-up, using Apogee converters ONLY in order to yield the ultra low-latency as advertised... all parts of the system designed to play well together... and that I feel is ultra important... a very big selling point.

So before I consider taking the plunge here, I'd really love to hear some feedback / reviews of this set-up from any users or others. Any issues, quirks, problems? How are the sonics overall? Etc, etc, etc. Would you say this is a solid reliable professional system?

Thanks

[Daedalus77]

"Just did some searching but did not find any juicy threads packed with good info / opinions of the Apogee Symphony system (Logic Pro 8, Mac computer with Apogee Symphony PCI card and Apogee converters) - specifically looking at the AD16X / DA16X converters."

Um....you're joking, right?

There are interminable threads on this subject.

Please, I beg you. Don't open this Symphony vs. HD can o' worms. Please. I'll give you five bucks. Please???

[666666]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

Um....you're joking, right? There are interminable threads on this subject. Please, I beg you. Don't open this Symphony vs. HD can o' worms. Please. I'll give you five bucks. Please???

Holy crap, really? Sorry. I did a seach on "apogee symphony" and didn't see much recent stuff, at least specific to the symphony system. Yeah, there were assorted threads listed, many pages long each, that did not include "Symphony" in the title... I wasn't about to read through hundreds of posts just to find maybe one or two small things on Symphony. If you know of any good threads that discuss a lot of detail regarding Symphony, I'd appreciate it if you could post a link here... I'll take that instead of the 5 bucks - thanks

[SK1]

It's awesome. I've got the system you're describing running on a G5 dual 2.7. I also have a profire lightbridge plugged into the opticals of the apogees so I can run PTLE sessions as well ( but it's limited to 14 outs )

Apogee has been great when it comes to tech support.

Really a great, great system.

[Daedalus77]

OK. Sorry. Didn't mean to be a jerk. This is what I can offer.

I was a Logic-head for a while but bought an HD rig because the client-base (and ease of audio recording/editing) really demanded it.

I've got Apogee ADx/DAx converters with my HD rig and wouldn't change them for anything. (At least for tracking. I might side with Lavry, Mytek or the UA unit for mixing, but I digress.)

The Symphony system seems to me rock-solid, but this debate (again) comes down to what DAW you want to use, and, more specifically, what you want out of your DAW.

To put it more simply: Logic (or Cubase or Nuendo or Sonar) certainly can "do" all that a PT|HD rig "can" do, but perhaps not as easily or as smoothly. And perhaps not with the degree of integration that PT can do.

If you're Chuck Ainlay and a dedicated Nuendo user with his client base, this won't matter.

If you're like the rest of us mortals trying to eke out a profit while stewarding great music, it will.

That, in the proverbial nutshell, is why I chose to buy an HD system. (With Apogee converters.)

Does this help? I certainly hope so.

Best of luck.
D.

[deuc647]

I think he is looking for the PCI version not the PCI-E

[bluejay]

I dumped my HD3 rig and got the setup you're talking about. I'm thrilled with it - but I'm a logic user, not a PT user. and Logic and TDM always sucked so it was an easy choice. Also, I'm pro, but I work on stuff for my own label - so I don't have to please clients, which is a big concern for most PT users. The system is mega-powerful, lower latency than my PT rig, and sonically great. 10.5.4 and the latest version of logic are stable, so all's well. I put 16 gig of RAM in my new 8 core machine (which amazingly costs very little, I get ram at other world computing and never had a problem).

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

To put it more simply: Logic (or Cubase or Nuendo or Sonar) certainly can "do" all that a PT|HD rig "can" do, but perhaps not as easily or as smoothly. And perhaps not with the degree of integration that PT can do.

i read this and laughed out loud.
it's just like PT HD but not quite as good.

to the OP this will be a common refrain.
logic, dp, nuendo, sonar, they're all just like PT HD, if you just do this one thing to make it work.

or this it will just like PT HD if you have this work around.

save yourself the trouble. go PT HD.

[nativeaudio]

Originally Posted by 666666

I did a seach on "apogee symphony" and didn't see much recent stuff, at least specific to the symphony system. Yeah, there were assorted threads listed, many pages long each, that did not include "Symphony" in the title... I wasn't about to read through hundreds of posts just to find maybe one or two small things on Symphony. If you know of any good threads that discuss a lot of detail regarding Symphony, I'd appreciate it if you could post a link here... I'll take that instead of the 5 bucks - thanks

Strangely enough - with all the Apogee threads on this forum - you're probably right. There doesn't seem to be one single thread covering what your thread title are asking for - user opinions.

If you're lucky, this can become that thread. If you're not so lucky, it will turn into just another thread about Logic/Symphony vs. Pro Tools, Reaper, 'native' vs. 'DSP based' DAWs and all that.

I wish you the best of luck. You may need it!

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

i read this and laughed out loud.
it's just like PT HD but not quite as good.

to the OP this will be a common refrain.
logic, dp, nuendo, sonar, they're all just like PT HD, if you just do this one thing to make it work.

or this it will just like PT HD if you have this work around.

save yourself the trouble. go PT HD.

How did I know that was coming, T?

In a nutshell, IMHO:

If you are a composer who already uses Logic for your own composing and mixing chores, then the Symphony rig is a great way to go. The Apogee converters are equal to or superior to Digi's and the latency on a Logic-Mac Intel-Symphony rig is negligible.

If you are an engineer with diverse clients bringing projects into your studio, then nothing is as consistent and dependable as a ProTools HD rig and that is the way to go, if you can afford it.

[127Riot]

I have it and love it.....

[Daedalus77]

Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd

save yourself the trouble. go PT HD.

That's what I was trying to say. Guess it didn't come across as clearly as I'd hoped.

But Tony's right.

[666666]

Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting and amusing stuff here.

I'll just mention that I have been using PT-LE since it was first introduced and consider myself very skilled with PT in general at this point. I do like the PT software very much, I do a lot of heavy-duty editing and appreciate PT's abilities here.

I'd stay with PT, but I mix OTB and need a LOT of top-end I/O... the current PT-LE stuff doesn't allow for that. And PT-HD in my opinion costs too much for what it is.

I work mostly with an "inner circle" of clients, almost all through word of mouth, they call me based on the quality of the work they hear, not based on whether or not I have PT.... so I am not so worried about that issue. I plan to keep a stripped down PT-LE in the house anyway, but for big mixes out to analog-land where I need 24 - 32 hi-end DA outs, looks like the Symphony set-up might be a great option.

I will not even use much DAW processing, I've never purchased a plug-in in my life and likely never will. That's just me. I run everything through analog outboard, for better or for worse, just a personal preference.

Because I already know PT so well, a new HD system would save me a load of time by not having to learn Logic 8. But... if Logic is truly excellent and the system sounds great and is way more reasonably priced, then I'd say it's WORTH learning.

I do suspect though that I'll be needing to open PT-LE from time to time to do heavy-duty editing. I witnessed a brief editing demonstration in Logic 8 recently and it seemed pretty cool, but.... I haven't actually tried it myself, so... until then I will not truly know just how "good" it actually is in that department.

Keep the feedback coming fellas... I'd appreciate it. And I much appreciate all the info thus far.

Side note about the AD-16X / DA-16X converters... I did already do a lot of searching on the forum here regarding these converters, verses say the Mytek 8X192s, Orpheus, etc. I have to admit, at least per the reviews I've read, I'm more attracted to the Myeks and Orpheus. I prefer things ultra accurate and precise. For instance, I'm a GML / Schoeps kinda guy. A lot of folks here have commented that the Apogees have a certain "analog-ish" softness / color etc... at least compared to the others. I'd of course need to hear these things to pass judgment myself, but... anyone wanna throw in a few extra comments here regarding this issue? Are the Apogees really gonna color things to a point that is "very noticeable"? Are my 32 track mixes (going through 32 Apogee DAs) going to take on a specific "tint" that might bug me? Or perhaps whatever color is yielded is very "natural" sounding and actually very pleasing?

Thanks

[E-Rock]

OK, I'll chime in on this.
I've had a Symphony system for a couple months now. I love it. I think it is a super powerful, great sounding rig that can go head to head with ANY PT rig.
Now, in truth, this is my 'home' system. At my 'day' job' we have 4 PTHD rigs, that I've been using for many,many years.
So, I was in the position to easily hate Logic. I never had used it before. I had to learn a new system!
This is the 'rant' part of my post. Flame suit on.
I wonder how many 'engineers' have actually tried to learn Logic?
If you boot it up and excpect it to be PT, you won't like it.
If you take the time to LEARN it, maybe RTFM, you may love it!
I was on the fence for so long because a lot of people seemed to be having lot's of problems.
After spending a lot of time with it, I'm convinced a lot of people just didn't ever read the manual.
I went thru a few weeks of frustration, because I was in a PT mindset.
Once I embraced the Logic part of my brain, it all made sense.
So, long story even longer, I love Logic. I love the Symphony system.
My rig can kick your PT ass.

Don't anyone take this post to seriously. I'm just funnin'.

[Daedalus77]

This may be interesting, given the direction of this discussion...

I used to get most folks coming in to sessions with demos or guide tracks done in PT|LE, ready to fly their files into the HD rig and get down to "serious" tracking.

Lately, I'm not getting many individuals (or bands) coming with PT|LE as much as Logic 8 projects. It's been a quick—and almost entire—transition.

Granted, it's all WAV files, but two points remain:

1. Most folks still want to bring stuff to an HD rig to make their "real," final recording. This seems to me to argue that people still (right or wrong) perceive an HD rig as the "pro" DAW destination for their music.

2. Most people have migrated from LE rigs to Logic 8 (or other native applications) to do their demo work (EVEN when they know they'll eventually transfer the project to a PT|HD session).

Maybe this is old news; maybe not. Maybe it's a testament to how much folks like Logic 8 more than Logic 7. Maybe (likely) it's continuing evidence of how utterly stupid PT|LE is—both as a legit piece of DAW software or a business model.

I love my HD rig. Seriously. (Tony, if you're out there, don't freak: My business and my workflow and my pleasure are dependent on my HD rig. Love it.)

BUT... Logic is quite nice, and there's got to be something to all these college bands walking into my shop asking if I can fly in their Logic files as guide tracks for the real deal.

Thoughts?

D.

[666666]

Interesting.

Hey... here's a quick question regarding Symphony...

So let's say I have a Mac Pro, Logic 8, the Symphony PCI card and some AD16X / DA16X converters.

Now let's say I want to connect my Crane Song HEDD and record some stereo stuff through the HEDD into Logic... if I remember correctly, the HEDD has SPDIF and AES/EBU.

How do I connect the HEDD (or any other good 2-channel converter for that matter) to the Symphony rig? What extra cards / interface units would I need? Outline the specifics please.

Will there be any crazy latency issues using a stereo AD other than Apogee?

If there is no problem hooking up a HEDD (or similar), is it possible to run a HEDD and AD16X at the same time? Like let's say I wanted to run some drum overheads through the HEDD and the rest of the kit through the AD16X all at once...? Yes? No? Kinda, maybe, but not really?

I already own a HEDD and I'd like to think I can still use it if I should get a Symphony system. But...???

Thanks all.

[userofgear]

Originally Posted by 666666

Interesting.

Hey... here's a quick question regarding Symphony...

So let's say I have a Mac Pro, Logic 8, the Symphony PCI card and some AD16X / DA16X converters.

Now let's say I want to connect my Crane Song HEDD and record some stereo stuff through the HEDD into Logic... if I remember correctly, the HEDD has SPDIF and AES/EBU.

How do I connect the HEDD (or any other good 2-channel converter for that matter) to the Symphony rig? What extra cards / interface units would I need? Outline the specifics please.

Will there be any crazy latency issues using a stereo AD other than Apogee?

If there is no problem hooking up a HEDD (or similar), is it possible to run a HEDD and AD16X at the same time? Like let's say I wanted to run some drum overheads through the HEDD and the rest of the kit through the AD16X all at once...? Yes? No? Kinda, maybe, but not really?

I already own a HEDD and I'd like to think I can still use it if I should get a Symphony system. But...???

Thanks all.

hello,

you must buy a ____________, or you will have all kinds of issues with _______ and _________[upgrade path / sounds better / horribleness / latency specs]. However, there is a workaround where you plug a ________ through a [lightpipe / spdif / dinosaur immobilizor / latency specs / did many "blind listening tests"], and then into your __________[more blind listening tests using icelandic children], which must be calibrated by _______at exactly 5 am, on super bowl sunday, while facing west.

or buy pro tools hd and insert "cosmonaut voice" on each track.


userofgear

[Shim]

Originally Posted by Daedalus77

BUT... Logic is quite nice, and there's got to be something to all these college bands walking into my shop asking if I can fly in their Logic files as guide tracks for the real deal.

Thoughts?

D.

I am a Logic user, totally lurking in this High End forum....but as much as i like logic, i think the reason so many college bands are using it is because it's native, has been cracked, and can be downloaded at any torrent site at anytime. Sucks, but i think it's a big part of the harsh reality. It's funny too, because logic 8 cut the price in half from logic 7...

[JordanA]

I have had my Symphony setup since it first came out. I have had zero problems. If you like Logic, go for it. It is nice Apple cut Logic's price in half. The only problem I have is when I track in PT HD at another studio and cannot save files as OMF because Digidesign likes to rip people off for something that is already in the software (I do like PT though).
Anyways, Symphony works and sounds great.

[SK1]

Originally Posted by userofgear

hello,

you must buy a ____________, or you will have all kinds of issues with _______ and _________[upgrade path / sounds better / horribleness / latency specs]. However, there is a workaround where you plug a ________ through a [lightpipe / spdif / dinosaur immobilizor / latency specs / did many "blind listening tests"], and then into your __________[more blind listening tests using icelandic children], which must be calibrated by _______at exactly 5 am, on super bowl sunday, while facing west.

or buy pro tools hd and insert "cosmonaut voice" on each track.


userofgear

Thanks for your useless, uninformative post.

[SK1]

Originally Posted by 666666

Interesting.

Hey... here's a quick question regarding Symphony...

So let's say I have a Mac Pro, Logic 8, the Symphony PCI card and some AD16X / DA16X converters.

Now let's say I want to connect my Crane Song HEDD and record some stereo stuff through the HEDD into Logic... if I remember correctly, the HEDD has SPDIF and AES/EBU.

How do I connect the HEDD (or any other good 2-channel converter for that matter) to the Symphony rig? What extra cards / interface units would I need? Outline the specifics please.

Will there be any crazy latency issues using a stereo AD other than Apogee?

If there is no problem hooking up a HEDD (or similar), is it possible to run a HEDD and AD16X at the same time? Like let's say I wanted to run some drum overheads through the HEDD and the rest of the kit through the AD16X all at once...? Yes? No? Kinda, maybe, but not really?

I already own a HEDD and I'd like to think I can still use it if I should get a Symphony system. But...???

Thanks all.

That's a good question. I've been thinking about getting a hedd in addition to my ad16x/da16x/symphony. I'll call apogee tommorrow and report back with some usable information.

It would be nice to have the hedd to warm stuff up with. How are you liking yours?

[solidstate]

Originally Posted by SK1

Thanks for your useless post.

I agree, it's a really dumb answer to a good question. Userofgear have you heard that CD? "Be a cool dood or die trying"

[127Riot]

I was at the crossing point PTHD or logic symphony a while back. After a lot of research I got the symphony system. I do not regret my decision in any way shape or form. I never even thought what if I got pro tools or am I missing something. it is all there. I love it.



WOW MY RECORDINGS ARE STARTING TO SOUND LIKE REAL ALBUMS.

[userofgear]

Originally Posted by SK1

Thanks for your useless, uninformative post.

hello,

no problem, i though he wanted "feedback" from "any users or others" before "taking the plunge".

userofgear

[SK1]

Originally Posted by 666666

Interesting.

Hey... here's a quick question regarding Symphony...

So let's say I have a Mac Pro, Logic 8, the Symphony PCI card and some AD16X / DA16X converters.

Now let's say I want to connect my Crane Song HEDD and record some stereo stuff through the HEDD into Logic... if I remember correctly, the HEDD has SPDIF and AES/EBU.

How do I connect the HEDD (or any other good 2-channel converter for that matter) to the Symphony rig? What extra cards / interface units would I need? Outline the specifics please.

Will there be any crazy latency issues using a stereo AD other than Apogee?

If there is no problem hooking up a HEDD (or similar), is it possible to run a HEDD and AD16X at the same time? Like let's say I wanted to run some drum overheads through the HEDD and the rest of the kit through the AD16X all at once...? Yes? No? Kinda, maybe, but not really?

I already own a HEDD and I'd like to think I can still use it if I should get a Symphony system. But...???

Thanks all.

Using the HEDD is no problem. With the apogees you get 16 analog and 16 digital ins or outs when running them in advanced routing mode. So plug whatever other converters you want into the apogees digital ins/outs. You can go optical or AES.

[666666]

Originally Posted by SK1

Using the HEDD is no problem. With the apogees you get 16 analog and 16 digital ins or outs when running them in advanced routing mode. So plug whatever other converters you want into the apogees digital ins/outs. You can go optical or aes.

Wow, really? This almost sounds too good to be true. Sounds totally amazing in fact.

http://www.apogeedigital.com/pdf/ad16x_usersguide.pdf

http://www.apogeedigital.com/pdf/da16x_usersguide.pdf

But, will this advanced routing mode work when using the Symphony PCI set-up? I ask because in the manual it seems to only refer to PT and Firewire set-ups when talking about advanced routing mode. Just want to make sure... because I'd be using the Symphony PCI card set-up.

[solidstate]

Originally Posted by SK1

Using the HEDD is no problem. With the apogees you get 16 analog and 16 digital ins or outs when running them in advanced routing mode. So plug whatever other converters you want into the apogees digital ins/outs. You can go optical or AES.

so.. No > latency while tracking with the cranesong via aes? Good to know

[666666]

Originally Posted by solidstate

so.. No > latency while tracking with the cranesong via aes? Good to know

Wow... again, almost sounds too good to be true. This is of course if advanced routing mode works with the Symphony card... need to confirm this.

This system is looking better and better all the time.

I remember struggling with my Digi-001 years back, thinking how I couldn't wait until an excellent affordable system would one day hit the market. Well, it took a while, but now it looks like I'll finally have a system that really does what I need it to do... and sound good too.

Getting excited.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by 666666

Wow, really? This almost sounds too good to be true. Sounds totally amazing in fact.

http://www.apogeedigital.com/pdf/ad16x_usersguide.pdf

http://www.apogeedigital.com/pdf/da16x_usersguide.pdf

But, will this advanced routing mode work when using the Symphony PCI set-up? I ask because in the manual it seems to only refer to PT and Firewire set-ups when talking about advanced routing mode. Just want to make sure... because I'd be using the Symphony PCI card set-up.

Ya, it works with any of the option cards. We are running a MASSIVE Symphony system to accommodate this very feature. We have 2 AD16x and 2 DA16x with TWO PCI-e cards in the computer. The First AD/DA16x connect to the First PCI-e card and the Second AD/DA16x to the second card. Because ALL of these units are set to Advanced Routing, each pair of AD/DA16x is maxing out each card for 32 Channels of I/O. This is why we needed a second card.

The 32 channels of AES I/O to and from Logic becomes very handy with our RADAR V for real time transfers back and forth, as the 24 I/O AES board in the RADAR V is directly connected to these I/O's. We also have 8 channels of AES I/O left over, which we use for adding other converters, like the Crane Song HEDD or the JCF Latte.....etc, for master buss recording or just overdubbing in Logic. As well, we feed our Avocet a stereo AES signal from these extra AES outputs for the Logic 2-track Returns, so we can use the Avocet D/A converter for monitoring.

This is the largest system I have ever worked with!! Plus, we are aggregating a RME MADI card connecting our IZ 16/24 Nyquist ADA ON TOP of the Symphony System, so you can use everything all at once with Logic if you want.

So, to re-cap, 24 Channels of RADAR AD, 32 Channels of Apogee AD, and 16 Channels AD from IZ ADA, all in one Logic session feeding the Avocet to monitor [or not].

[matskull]

Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell

Ya, it works with any of the option cards. We are running a MASSIVE Symphony system to accommodate this very feature. We have 2 AD16x and 2 DA16x with TWO PCI-e cards in the computer. The First AD/DA16x connect to the First PCI-e card and the Second AD/DA16x to the second card. Because ALL of these units are set to Advanced Routing, each pair of AD/DA16x is maxing out each card for 32 Channels of I/O. This is why we needed a second card.

The 32 channels of AES I/O to and from Logic becomes very handy with our RADAR V for real time transfers back and forth, as the 24 I/O AES board in the RADAR V is directly connected to these I/O's. We also have 8 channels of AES I/O left over, which we use for adding other converters, like the Crane Song HEDD or the JCF Latte.....etc, for master buss recording or just overdubbing in Logic. As well, we feed our Avocet a stereo AES signal from these extra AES outputs for the Logic 2-track Returns, so we can use the Avocet D/A converter for monitoring.

This is the largest system I have ever worked with!! Plus, we are aggregating a RME MADI card connecting our IZ 16/24 Nyquist ADA ON TOP of the Symphony System, so you can use everything all at once with Logic if you want.

So, to re-cap, 24 Channels of RADAR AD, 32 Channels of Apogee AD, and 16 Channels AD from IZ ADA, all in one Logic session feeding the Avocet to monitor [or not].

Sounds good, how (or why) do you use the radar?