Decided to add ELAM 251, but which one exactly

[GYang]

After testing Soundelux ELUX 251 (really excellent mic), parallel to Lawson 251 and Telefunken USA ELAM 251, I found it is almost impossible to distinguish them sonically.
Well, I know that after intense use with time some subtle nuances and differences might be more apparent, but for time being I see 3 virtually same mics, although the prices are quite different. It is likely that Telefunken is just slightly closer to original in sound.
Any opinion on reasons which one to choose finally (not related to costs).

GYang

[Fletcher]

Use all 3 in context... trying to listen to them individually as in not in context is a great way to get really confused.

As for any of them sounding like "an original"... the question would be how the "original" has been maintained for like the last 40 years... has it been well cared for? Has it been abused? Has it been maintained by a hack? Has it been maintained by someone who actually had a clue?

[Fletcher]

Use all 3 in context... trying to listen to them individually as in not in context is a great way to get really confused.

As for any of them sounding like "an original"... the question would be how the "original" has been maintained for like the last 40 years... has it been well cared for? Has it been abused? Has it been maintained by a hack? Has it been maintained by someone who actually had a clue?

[84K]

Originally posted by GYang
After testing Soundelux ELUX 251 (really excellent mic), parallel to Lawson 251 and Telefunken USA ELAM 251, I found it is almost impossible to distinguish them sonically.
Well, I know that after intense use with time some subtle nuances and differences might be more apparent, but for time being I see 3 virtually same mics, although the prices are quite different. It is likely that Telefunken is just slightly closer to original in sound.
Any opinion on reasons which one to choose finally (not related to costs).

GYang

Funny... I did s similar test and the Tele USA destroyed the other mics.... it made the others sound like toys. Given, it is a lot more $$$$, but it sounds it. WAY better. The Tele USA is also built to an obviously higher standard. The Lawson was noticeably better than the SoundReflux, but the Telefunken USA was in a league of its own.

In my test.... 4 different mic pres used.... all direct into Pro Tools HD at 24-96.

API 512
Pendulum MDP-1
Fearn VT
Neve 1073 (pre only)

What was your chain?

[Mr T. Funken]

Hello,
The folks at Tfunk wanted to say thanks for the support & kind words.



P.S. Fletcher... Are you ever going to step up and sell some real mics?

[GYang]

I used Manley Slam and AMEK DMCL.

Question to Tony Fishman
I wonder if (more affordable) 251F is sonically equal to 251E?
At 4500-5000 range this quality would be killer.

GYang

[grouphome]

I want to buy one too (Telefunken one)
but have to wait till we start building the studio, then I know what budget i've got for mic's.
Loved the sound from what i've heard.
Keep up the good work Telefunken USA!

[Mr T. Funken]

I'll try my best to answer your questions...

For starters, The two retail price points are as follows: <br>
Ela M251 (E) Platinum Ed.=$7500.00 <br><br>
Ela M251 (F) No Frills Ed.=$4995.00 <br>

The main two differences between the two systems are:
The (E) Package comes with 5 Year Warranty, Flight Case & a Hand Built Power supply that is historically correct...<br>

The (F) Package comes with a 1 Year Warranty, No Flight Case & A Modern PC board Based Power Supply...<br>

Both Microphones are "Exactly the same in every way." Except for the Power Supplies. <br>

Capsule Selection & Studio Testing: <br>

All Telefunken Microphones are tested at "Telefunken Studio" under a series of real world recording demands. So it's not just looking at a Line Graph Freq. Plot......& shipping off the microphone.... We actually test & evaluate every microphone. We record using matched set of mic pre's. We use Martinsound MMS10's that are tweaked by the crew at Martinsound & Toby Foster.) We also use Grace 201 from time to time. We find these two Brands of Mic Pres to be very transparent and clean. During the tests we record to Protools snap shots of Drums, Tambourine, Glockenspiel, Acoustic Guitar & Vocals.... <br>

These tracks are then compared to every Vintage 251 & New 251 microphone we have Manufactured, Serviced or Owned. There are over 30 originals and 220 new microphones we compare too. <br>

The process takes us a lot of time & we are willing to spend that time grade our capsules. <br>

We pick capsules that perform to our standards for both microphone systems.
All we wish to do during the selection process is to pick out the bad capsules....<br>

Mostly all of our capsule pass for either (E) or (F) packages. Out of 10 there's often one or two that get matched for Stereo Ela M270's..... There a few we pick for (E)'s... There a few we pick for (F)'s One or two that get discarded or reused for parts. <br>

So the answer is: We don't put less desirable capsules in the (F) microphones.....

Rather we select what we feel passes for both systems & discard what doesn't make the grade.

I hope you all understand and will not read this in the incorrect light. I'm not very good at typing, nor am I an English Major.....

Team Telefunken & Elektroakustik Mikrofon

[Saucyjack]

For 5k you get 12 months of warranty??
That's really standing behind your product.

[GYang]

Originally Posted by Saucyjack

For 5k you get 12 months of warranty??
That's really standing behind your product.

Agree, that seems less than expected, but IMO Tele USA just made great marketing trick with ELAM 251.

First, it was mentioned in press that it's price is around 10.000, what seemed fair if mic is on par with best vintage ELAMs that would cost 15-20 grands.
Later they lowered the price, but still there are not too many people who would pay 3 times more than for Lawson 251 (for very subtle improvement in sound) or almost 2 times more than SOundelux ELUX 251.
Finally, they came to conclusion that ELAM 251 should fit in Soundelux price range 4500-5000. Indeed, chance to sell it now in bigger quantity are realistic.
So, to justify great price drop, they cutted warranty period and some other non-essential items in package.

But, presently ELAM 251 is really first class choice, so I'm gonna purchase it definitely.
Dealers network is still small, so further price improvement toward 4000 for the time being is not very likely.

GYang

[Linear]

Originally Posted by Mr T. Funken

I'll try my best to answer your questions...

{salesy crap and bad grammar snipped}

yawn.

Chris

[GYang]

Originally Posted by Mr T. Funken

I'll try my best to answer your questions...

Both Microphones are "Exactly the same in every way." Except for the Power Supplies. <br>

Out of 10 there's often one or two that get matched for Stereo Ela M270's..... There a few we pick for (E)'s... There a few we pick for (F)'s One or two that get discarded or reused for parts. <br>

So the answer is: We don't put less desirable capsules in the (F) microphones.....

In relation to 'F' version, it is hard not to conceive that better capsules or whatever will go to costlier 'E' version what can easily bring us to conclusion that purchasing of 'F' version will be a kind of gambling.
In couple of years it will eventually sort out, but for time being a quandary remains.
It would be better to produce just 251 and let customers decide if they wish vintage power supply or de luxe boxes as accessories, not at cost of arguably lesser sonic qualities.

GYang

GYang

[doogie]

you helped me out alot with converter advice and I appreciate it , mics are my thing and I'm telling you do yourself a favor and check out Korby Audio even for future reference .... he tunes mics for everybody from Lenny Kravitz to Daniel Lanois to Martina McBride....

[doogie]

GYang ... off topic though if you had all the resources in the world what would be your top 2 picks for converters..

[doogie]

by the way I own the Lawson 251 and have tried the others ... I like the Lawson alot for the price, but my workhorse for vocals is my Korby audio 251 , if I want a vocal heavy on attitude and edge I'll use a sm7/LTD1/Distressor combination most eother apps will be 251 or U67,U95,U47/API512/1176 blackface combination, yeah I love my Soundeluxe U95 as well

[84K]

I will be buried with a telefunken usa 251.

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by Mr T. Funken

Both Microphones are "Exactly the same in every way." Except for the Power Supplies.

OK, but is there any difference in sonics or performance, using the two power supplies?

If I could get it in the budget, I'm the kind of guy who might purchase a mic like that for <5k for my studio, but I wouldn't spend $7500, just too rich for my blood. I don't care about the authentic look of the PS, I only care about the sound.

But it's probably moot where I'm concerned anyway, I don't know if I could go for a 12 month warranty on an instrument like that...

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by 84K

I will be buried with a telefunken usa 251.

Better watch it, somebody dig your ass up an take it!

[84K]

Originally Posted by Killahurts

Better watch it, somebody dig your ass up an take it!

HAHAHA!

[GYang]

Originally Posted by doogie

GYang ... off topic though if you had all the resources in the world what would be your top 2 picks for converters..

Weiss ADC-2/DAC-1 MKII
DCS 904/954
or vice versa

Also, I'll definitely look closer on Korby.

GYang

[Meriphew]

Originally Posted by Killahurts

Better watch it, somebody dig your ass up an take it!

Visions of "The Good the Bad and the Ugly".

Now that I mentioned that, everyone prolly has the theme song stuck in their head.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by GYang

After testing Soundelux ELUX 251 (really excellent mic), parallel to Lawson 251 and Telefunken USA ELAM 251, I found it is almost impossible to distinguish them sonically.
Well, I know that after intense use with time some subtle nuances and differences might be more apparent, but for time being I see 3 virtually same mics, although the prices are quite different. It is likely that Telefunken is just slightly closer to original in sound.
Any opinion on reasons which one to choose finally (not related to costs).

GYang

If you can't hear it ... buy the cheap one! Seriously. Save your money for other things you really need and can hear for sure.

I have the Korby set and love the way this 251 is tweaked, it's warm and has less top than some yet is more detailed than any SD Elux I've ever heard and runs circles around the Lawson in every category. It was tuned after Bono's Joshua Tree mic, whatever that means to you. Tracy tunes real 251s all day long and while there's more than one sound of a 251, the Korby can hit them all.

all the best

[GYang]

Originally Posted by lucey

It was tuned after Bono's Joshua Tree mic, whatever that means to you. Tracy tunes real 251s all day long and while there's more than one sound of a 251, the Korby can hit them all.

all the best

Thanks for this valuable input, as well as, to all other opinions that indeed helped to move in right direction.

GYang

[dkatz42]

Originally Posted by RobertPhilbeck

I am curious to know why the "no frills" model comes with a shorter warranty period that the "frills" model? That is NOT something to be overlooked.

-Robert

I'm sure there are multiple reasons, but there are simple economics involved--a five year warranty requires more money in the company's warranty budget than a one year. This is real operating cash that has to be set aside for such things. Shorten the period and it becomes cheaper. How much cheaper depends on the warranty return curve; I'd expect something like this to have a bump at the early part (infant mortality) and then a slowly rising curve over time. The area under that curve between years 2 and 5 is money saved.

Further, public companies have to account for warranty reserves as a liability, which affects their bottom line. Shedding that liability makes the books look better.

Most companies approach this in the other direction--sell you a product, then give you the option of paying more for a longer warranty. It's basically insurance money; it's down the toilet if the product never fails, and it may be money well spent if you need it. Statistically, extended warranties are *always* a bad deal because they are priced to make money (your average electronics store makes bundles on these things), but as an individual the statistics mean nothing.

Like all insurance, it boils down to personal risk assessment and pocket depth. If you have the cash flow to withstand an unlikely but large payout, in the long run you're better off not paying for the coverage. If you are in a position where you're out of business if you need to cough up a pile of money all of a sudden, you are better off paying for the coverage (particularly since, in this case, you can finance it, which makes it cost even more but spreads the pain out over time.)

I wouldn't read too much into warranty length with regards to product quality, particularly in this price range and marketplace.

[lucey]

Funny, I've never talked to Korby about a warantee. I'd bet they'll fix it forever if it's their problem, and if it's mine, they'd be fair.


And not to say this is the case here, yet in other botique industries, the high-end is defined by the lack of a warantee and the reliance on civil people to do the right thing, whereas warantee's are for the mid-level consumers to feel better about their purchase.

[pan60]

i have found this to be very true also, with most all companies making good hi end quality products, they want their reputation to be as hi quality as their gear.

[GYang]

Any idea how much KAT4 with all four will cost after all?
Seems Tracy is to busy to make an offer.

GYang

[lucey]

Originally Posted by GYang

Any idea how much KAT4 with all four will cost after all?
Seems Tracy is to busy to make an offer.

GYang

vintage king

Korby is moving to Nashville in the same building as Massenburg's new studio. Vintage King is the place to go for info and demos

[nukmusic]

I wonder how much it exactly cost to build each mic? And we all know you get discounts for buying materials in Bulk................lol

I think all mic are subjective. or any piece of gear for that fact. I see if you are compare something like a $40 radio shack mic to lets say a U87. Any 251 will get you a great recording..............but I guess some need the GREAT GREAT GREAT recording ??? But is it really worth all the extra cash. Be real.

I know some companies spend a good bit on R&D to develope they gear, but I think some are smoking crack when they are deciding on retail prices. Maybe companies should give folks a free upgrade if you buy one mic(a 251) and then they release another (a 251-B)...............hell ya.............if they CLAIM their product is that much better. Any one got a count on the # of Shure sm57's sold??? or neumann u87's sold?? funny huh?

just my 2cents, but anyway

I think the Korby systen looks like a good setup. 4 different favors for a few grand. Seems like if studios trust him to repair the name brand mic..........he should know how most of them sound and what parts make them sound the way the do. If these other companies can make a replica, why can't he?? If i had the money I would buy it.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by nukmusic

Seems like if studios trust him to repair the name brand mic..........he should know how most of them sound and what parts make them sound the way the do. If these other companies can make a replica, why can't he?? If i had the money I would buy it.

Not just Studios ... artists, and mic collectors ... Korby was tweaking vintage mics for a living when many of the others were thinking a diaphragm was a sex aide.