To all audio Pro's: help me warm up my (digital) sound!

[sottovoceprods]

Here's what I've got:

Apogee Rosetta 800 A/D converters into Powermac G4 DP mirror doors
All Mogami cabling from hardware synths and pre-amps into Rosetta.
Monitors: Event 20/20 BAS (from 1999), KRK V4's
Synths: Korg Trinity Rack, MS2000
Virtual Synths/Samplers: (Prophet) Pro-53, Kompakt, Kontakt, Reaktor, Absynth
Pre-Amps: Universal Audio 610B (x2), Vintech 73Xi (x2)
Compressor: Universal Audio 1176 LN (x2)
DAW: Cubase VST/32 with UV22 dithering (not UV22HR)
Plug-ins: VST, WAVES 4.0 Gold, UAD Studio Pak
Mastering Software: T-Racks 24
Sample Rate/bit depth: 48KHz, 24-bit

I have been running all hardware and software instruments through the pre-amps, which has improved my sound a bit (the pre-amps are relatively new purchases). Also running the mixdowns through the Vintechs before bringing them into T-Racks. All mixing is done digitally. I monitor through a Mackie Onyx 1610 board--but this does not affect the recorded signal path. Everything runs directly through a Pre-Amp and into the Apogee.

Is there any outboard equipment or software plug-ins you would recommend to help me get that major label sound? Perhaps something to run the final mix through other than T-Racks? Would working at 96KHz be a huge leap in quality? Getting a tape machine is out of the questions, as I do not have the space for it.

[Waylon]

it would probablly help to hear some of your work?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by shaundrew
...advice on how to make my tracks sound bigger, warmer and fatter--like the major label recordings.... Keep in mind that a lot of my work entails using sampled instruments that are on my hard drives.

You may have just answered your own question!

[Animus]

running stuff though class a outboard preamps and whatnot can sure help I bet.


I am having good success with Voxengo Tapebus in the native world. I don't know if it sounds just like tape or not but I sure like what it does to the audio.

[airmate]

it's not only about equipment, at the end of the day it's a matter of your skills and your creativity.

there is absolutely no "plug-me-in-and-the-mix-will-sound-like-a-major-label-production" box on the market.

i don't want to bother you, but just keep this in mind when thinking about buying new gear.

looking at your gear list, i start to think you don't need much more equipment. maybe some overdrive stomp boxes or weird analog delays to add some special flavor, but the overall signal chain should already be good enough.

maybe you should try to invest in better signal sources, i.e. synthesizers. some analog stuff that is fun to play with. something to trigger your creativity.

and do you do your own mastering? perhaps you should concentrate on the mixdown and let someone else do the mastering, if you don't feel comfortable with the results so far.

just some thoughts...

[Animus]

UAD cards and plugs are indispensable.

[Darius van H]

For me, warm + fat are closely related to distortion......learning about how different forms of distortion can phatten and blend your sounds..

..what's good and bad distortion, how to harness it.......tubes, tape, clipping, transformers, plugins, whatever it's all(can be?) good...personally i'm more a fan of analog distortion but that's me.

...'course you need the ears, experience and monitoring to make full use......choosing great sounds then smudging and blending with distortion...that's the key IMO.

[airmate]

shaundrew, you can't go wrong with a pair of 1176's...

you already have some pieces of good gear!

i am not convinced either by mastering on your own, either by using t-racks to do this job.

my suggestion is: if you want to have a "pro" mastering (and obviously this is what you're looking for), then ask a "pro" mastering-engineer.
he uses different ears, speakers and a different room than yours, and this might be one part of the solution.

and of course there are reasons why people use mass pass, ssl comp and the likes across the stereo bus. this can be an important point, but it's not necessarily the most important one.

most of the electronica acts don't have a large recording facility with tons of expensive gear. they just have a certain idea of the sound they want to create. and again, this is what it's all about.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by shaundrew
...The instrumentation on these albums is largely reliant on electronic drums, electronic basses and other synth sounds and virtual instruments.

I wouldn't assume that your samples are the same. Most of those producers have spent years creating their own samples.

[moeses]

stop using T-racks for one
it'll suck the life out of your audio

[TeftMusic]

Originally posted by shaundrew
Thanks, Airmate. Those are good thoughts.

Definitley agreed. There is no replacement for skills and creativity. I am really not all about the gear--I am much more all about the gear being a means to a creative end. I just want to get professional opinions on whether or not what I have should be sufficient at achieving a "major label sound"--given the right person is utilizing it all. It's good to get some feedback on all this gear I've purchased, and to hear that my signal chain might not necessarily be lacking.

I am constantly improving my skills in the mixing and mastering department. Still, I am wondering if there is some piece of software or hardware that might overall "sound better" than T-Racks. Any thoughts?

Your best bet in getting that "Major Label" sound is a professional mastering engineer. T-Racks, even though its a great piece of software, will not come even close to what a skilled mastering engineer with thousands of dollars of specialized gear can produce (that major label sound).

Well actually, if your talented enough in the engineering department, you can get close. But that last 1% - 3% of quality is usually high end analog gear with massive amounts of bandwidth!

[davemc]

Also how many plugins eq/comps are you using on the samples.
Some plugins fool you into thinking they add to the sound, as they increase the volume. When you A/b at a relative level the plugin really has taken away not added to the sound.

Have you tried running eq freq progams over your mix and samples like PAZ,wavelab etc.
It could be with your room or speakers you are over compenstating with eq. I know the Events are not real flat used to own them. low mid is a bit wierd.
I alot of the fatness is in the low mid and how it sits.
If you cannot hear it correctly then it hurts your mix.

Also watch your attack and release times on compresors with samples they have normally a lot of times been squished a lot anyway. So just sqashing again.. I do not know.

Have you looked at distortion type plugs or tape/valve sims.
They can help I just do not think they are the holy grail of getting samples to sound fat. hope this helps

[Sammas]

Here is an idea i've been messing around with. I'll try and get some clips up...

I've been trying to add some thickness to my softsynth tracks and sounds so i've started running the tracks out of my Daw and into some external sources to mic and record. I then mix them with the originals.


here is what i've been experimenting with....

My car stereo (since my little lab is off the side of my garage i've tried sticking an SM-57 and Cheapie SP's condensor on the 6x9 Drivers on the backshelf. Since my car only has a CD player i've just dumped the tracks to a CD then recorded them straight into the session then lined them up with the originals.

I've tried reamping them through my guitar amp (Egnater TOL50). It has a very very clean fendery type sound. It adds a nice amount of thickness to the lower mids and really improves the sound of sampled strings when mixed in slightly.

I've tried Blasting it through a nice Home Stereo. Im going to try and find a cheap Valve poweramp then give it another go to get a little grit.

I'm going to try rigging up a little reverb chamber in my Garage (its full of junk so it has a very nice sound so i've found out due to its internal shape). I'm going to stick a small speaker in one corner than using 2 cheap Omni mics in XY down the other end im going to try and add some depth to the tracks.


And i agree with not using T-racks. I use to use it and it gave me some good ideas about what Mastering is all about but since them i've acheived much greater results with dedicated plugins with Nuendo...

[seb37000]

When I dont bring the mix to a professional mastering service I use waves L2 and thats it, nothing else...I just want to bring the level up and thats it, L2 does not add warmth, space or anything of that kind that would change my mix for the worst ( like t-racks).

[alphajerk]

distortion.... add it to varying degrees. the bands you cite are loaded with it, and its also about really tweaking the patches on the synths. delve more into messing up patches instead of selecting whatever "preset"...

[Bob Olhsson]

I've always been shocked by how much easer it was to make better samples than most of what's sold. The commercial stuff is always about how many different samples they can load into memory rather than how good the samples sound.

[bloodstone]

Lately I've been running all my mixes into an Avalon 747sp before I print them to PC through an EMU 1212M into Wavelab 5.01a. I turn on the tube circuit on the Avalon, and tend to overdrive the device using the input knob. It's doing quite a bit to improve the overall sound. I'm using a light application of the compressor on the Avalon, but not to any audible degree. However, I'm mixing with an analog console.

[maxim]

i like your music, shaun

i say, work with what you've got, but make it work

there is no formula

all the same tools that can **** your sound, can also make the sound great (even t-rax, i guess, although to my ears, it's a bit squashy for a 2-bus)

don't forget that compression/distortion makes things smaller rather than bigger (and it can make some things smaller than others, which can help with the overall perspective)

when you're talking about your mix being bigger, do you mean wider?

if so, well-applied delays/reverbs can really help an all-sample arrangement

to make it warmer, that's what the eq's for, isn't it?

personally, i think a good mastering engineer is well worth the admission price

what are you monitoring through?

[neve1073]

Your arrangments are fine.
I agree with you that the sound is lacking something.

I realize it's unrealistic, but the coolest thing IMO would be to use more if not all real instruments and players.

I know this is not always possible. So I would definitely consider the quality of your sample library.

Another suggestion is to hire someone whom you think you can learn from to come in and mix or remix a song for you, and pay close attention to what he does. Same goes for mastering (though you'll have to make it clear that you want to be there and may have questions).

Another suggestion is mixing partially out of the box? Invest in some badass analog outboard gear to impart real character to your sounds. Plugins don't always cut it IMO.

[TeftMusic]

Mixing outside of the box can make a huge difference. Even if you just sum the stems into a final stereo mix. Even if you use a mackie board to do the summing, though my first choice would be a SSL to sum on. "Track on a Neve, Mix on a SSL"?


You've got the converters, just bus Vocals, Pads (rythm guitars included), drum & bass, effects to seperate faders. Do all the delicate mixing in the computer. Then, capture the stereo bus through some of you pres back into the Rosetta 800.

[TeftMusic]

Id watch out about running everything thorugh the vintech. You'll end up getting a 2D stereo image. Instead, pick certain elemets (guitars) to run through the vintech. Then use your UA pres for others. Size in audio is all relative. If everything is mixed huge then it doesnt seem huge! Mix certain elements "behind" to create the illusion of space and depth (including your FXs) thumbsup

[leftcoastproduc]

I am facing somewhat the same dilemna and have posted similiar questions in regards to this in other forums......it looks like you have all the right gear for the making of a "Pro Sound" maybe just experiment with different techniques

1) keep a copy of a track that you are trying to sound like open in say Wavelab and use the Spectrum Analyzer to see what is going on in the frequecy dept....

2) clone tracks and sweep them with a HP filter listening for different sweet spots or use a LP filter on your 2 bus around 12k....I have been experimenting with my MoogerFooger Low Pass Filter on all kinds of sounds and it definetly warms up and adds fullness

3) use a good multiband compressor

4) these plugs were recommended to me Bomb Factory, Voxengo, Valvetone, Hydratone, PSP Vintage Warmer,McDSP Analog Channel

5) also experiment and run different things through an amp with different mics/placements.....maybe a mic in the room for ambience

6) reverb on the buss sparingly

if you are trying to sound like the Chems than you better invest in say an Akai S6000(Fatboy Slim,Crystal Method...etc) for its nice filters and converters many breakbeat producers use them.....also shortening the decay times in your drums will give you more space and allow you to give them more gain through the preamp......you have some nice arrangements and by the sound of it your used to working on the total opposite end of the pool with classical music.......

my two cents

[toolskid]

try hiring a pro-studio for a day and experimenting with high-end gear and a seriously good monitoring situation, it will a worthwhile experience

[toolskid]

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I've always been shocked by how much easer it was to make better samples than most of what's sold. The commercial stuff is always about how many different samples they can load into memory rather than how good the samples sound.

my sample libraries are not made like that. Maybe a bit too sweeping a statement Mr Olhsson. I can take up to six months working on one library. I put a lot of passion and a hell of a lot of work into them, and I suppose I get very good feeback because of that. There are other quality sample libraries out there too, the scene has moved on since the embarassing messes they used to produce.

[leftcoastproduc]

Originally posted by toolskid
try hiring a pro-studio for a day and experimenting with high-end gear and a seriously good monitoring situation, it will a worthwhile experience

you beat me to the punch!

[leftcoastproduc]

Originally posted by toolskid
my sample libraries are not made like that. Maybe a bit too sweeping a statement Mr Olhsson. I can take up to six months working on one library. I put a lot of passion and a hell of a lot of work into them, and I suppose I get very good feeback because of that. There are other quality sample libraries out there too, the scene has moved on since the embarassing messes they used to produce.

sample libraries now are INSANE!! I hear you if none of you are impressed just take a quick listen to Spectrasonics Atmosphere and Stylus Eric Persing is doing big things these days and its in the form of dvd's many people don't realize how organic sample libraries are these days and make the assumption that oh that's just a sample and there is no live feel or nuances.....again there is some groundbreaking things going on in the forefront of electronic music and vst technology....... there is already so many producers out there that are creating whole albums in front of their computer and then are hiring musicians to go on tour with them....

my two cents

[freshmints]

there are several softplugs that will increase the analogue feel to ur production , voxengo eqs and warmifier , psp mix pack ie psp saturator , uad1 la2a , 1167ln , pultec ; if u ask me u dont even need expensive outboard to get that fat sound like prodigy u can do that all with some nice uad , voxengo , psp plugs maybe some analogue summing tru a mackie is all u'll need .
but you will have to know how to push ur sound with the things u got . just having all that stuff wont make your production sound huge . imo