Led Zeppelin guitars

[indravayu]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

I always find it kind of funny when someone asks... "What did X person use?". Especially when we are talking about a particular legendary guitarist.

Sure, it's fun to know what the preamp or compressor was, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter.... that's not what people want to hear, but it's true.

Think about it.... the distortion pedal (actually any of the pedals) is going to impart WAY more character than ANY preamp.

The mic and guitar amp combo is WAY more important than the compressors... and even then, it's REALLY about the player and technique.

Even in a case like Black Dog, where no guitar amp/distortion pedal/mic was used?

[Demonslave]

Yes what Tony Belmont said Its not just the signal chain, It is the guitar players style/technique that will fill that "Magical" void .....
Go you tube some of your favorite led zep songs being covered by other people, very few if any can pull off "the sound"!!

[manning1]

i dont know if true, but correct me if i'm wrong.
wasnt a ampeg reverberocket guitar amp used at some point ?

[indravayu]

Originally Posted by Demonslave

Yes what Tony Belmont said Its not just the signal chain, It is the guitar players style/technique that will fill that "Magical" void .....
Go you tube some of your favorite led zep songs being covered by other people, very few if any can pull off "the sound"!!

A couple of years ago that massive Recording the Beatles came out, to near universal praise on boards like GS...many people are interested in learning how classic albums were recorded...what exactly is the problem here?

Since we don't have such a resource for Zeppelin (yet), folks seek out this knowledge online. It is completely pointless for people to say "it was all in their fingers, man" or "get your own sound, dude, don't be a copycat"! Are you guys for real? If it were 1968 and a young Jimmy Page was prodding older engineers for info on Les Paul's multitracking techniques, I suppose you'd be the ones telling him it's all pointless to inquire and that nobody could ever do what Les Paul did!

[TonyBelmont]

Originally Posted by indravayu

A couple of years ago that massive Recording the Beatles came out, to near universal praise on boards like GS...many people are interested in learning how classic albums were recorded...what exactly is the problem here?

Well, those books serve many different purposes... I mostly look at them as describing the processes that took place to record those great records. Not so much the equipment.

Since we don't have such a resource for Zeppelin (yet), folks seek out this knowledge online. It is completely pointless for people to say "it was all in their fingers, man" or "get your own sound, dude, don't be a copycat"! Are you guys for real? If it were 1968 and a young Jimmy Page was prodding older engineers for info on Les Paul's multitracking techniques, I suppose you'd be the ones telling him it's all pointless to inquire and that nobody could ever do what Les Paul did!

Nothing is wrong with discussing it... and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone to "get their own sound". But, the fact is, the answers people are looking for have less to do with a certain preamp or compressor... and more to do with the actual guitar rig, and the player himself. A lot of hobbyist's will blow big bucks trying to get a Helios preamp or Rev E 1176.... But, will it really get you ANY closer to that sound? Of course not.... Think about all of the other aspects:

The player
The room
The guitar rig
The microphone
The TAPE machine (how quickly people forget how much this impacts the sound)

The thing is, all of the things that really contribute the most to the sound are the absolute hardest to obtain.... the fingers, the room acoustics, the big Ampex, etc. I wish it were as simple as saying if you buy a Helios and an 1176 you'll hear the magic, but in reality those two pieces were used because they were THERE... they weren't sought out for and brought in for that day. If there was a Neve and a LA3A, it still would have sounded basically the same.

[userofgear]

hello,

i agree that the guitar recordings on the led zeppelin albums are worth analysing, not only for the sounds, but also panning placement, doubling choices, and all that.

trying to get the exact sounds would be frustrating, but you can still learn something from checking into all that, and end up with some useful information.

page seems like a very creative person. he probably isn't as astute as some of the people that post here about "electronics theory", but he does have a very effective approach to recording, that's for sure. i think he experimented a lot to come up with some of the stuff.

interesting how some of the electric guitar sounds are kind of small and tight, rather than the uber-huge sound people often go for these days. the acoustic guitar sounds are tremendous.

i can say that i demoed some helios mic pres, and it seems to me that they did have "that sound". not a lot of headroom, but a very light, present, vibe.

interesting thread.

userofgear

[Drumsound]

Originally Posted by sleestack

There seems to be a lot of star ****ing on this board. In life for that matter.
Isn't fame mostly luck? Or ambition? There are shit tons of guitarists. Jimmy page is talented, Extremely, but he was also lucky as **** to meet the other members of led zeppelin and happen to make the music he did at that time.There has to be thousands and thousands of amazing musicians that never had the chance for innumerable reasons. I truly believe that. Luck, timing, right place right time. Ambition. Right chemistry. Lottery odds

Just because JP and the boys "got lucky" does that make the music less special? Does it has less impact on people? Does it matter less in the history of recording? popular music? inspiration?

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Well, those books serve many different purposes... I mostly look at them as describing the processes that took place to record those great records. Not so much the equipment.

I completely agree with this.

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Nothing is wrong with discussing it... and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone to "get their own sound". But, the fact is, the answers people are looking for have less to do with a certain preamp or compressor... and more to do with the actual guitar rig, and the player himself. A lot of hobbyist's will blow big bucks trying to get a Helios preamp or Rev E 1176.... But, will it really get you ANY closer to that sound? Of course not.... Think about all of the other aspects:

The player
The room
The guitar rig
The microphone
The TAPE machine (how quickly people forget how much this impacts the sound)

I like your list. Plus add in format, tape formula, speed and calibration.

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

The thing is, all of the things that really contribute the most to the sound are the absolute hardest to obtain.... the fingers, the room acoustics, the big Ampex, etc. I wish it were as simple as saying if you buy a Helios and an 1176 you'll hear the magic, but in reality those two pieces were used because they were THERE... they weren't sought out for and brought in for that day. If there was a Neve and a LA3A, it still would have sounded basically the same.

Yes and no, mostly yes.

[trustyjim]

Originally Posted by indravayu

A couple of years ago that massive Recording the Beatles came out, to near universal praise on boards like GS...many people are interested in learning how classic albums were recorded...what exactly is the problem here?

Since we don't have such a resource for Zeppelin (yet), folks seek out this knowledge online.

I agree, well stated! I purchased the RTB book, and I really enjoyed it. I also enjoy learning about Jimi Hendrix and Jimmy Page's guitar techniques and recording chains, even though there are no resources (that I know of) that are similarly comprehensive. Questions about their equipment are perfectly valid and it should be left to the O.P. to do what they want with the information.

Originally Posted by indravayu

It is completely pointless for people to say "it was all in their fingers, man" or "get your own sound, dude, don't be a copycat"!

Agreed!

[craigmorris74]

I don't think Page got lucky at all. After leaving the Yardbirds, he was going to do a pretty cool project no matter who was involved. Are the other guys great players that meshed well together? Sure. But Page was going to do something big with the ideas and experiences he had.

Craig

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by craigmorris74

I don't think Page got lucky at all. After leaving the Yardbirds, he was going to do a pretty cool project no matter who was involved. Are the other guys great players that meshed well together? Sure. But Page was going to do something big with the ideas and experiences he had.

Absolutely. Page always claimed that he had the first Zep album totally planned in his mind even before finalizing the personel. Plant and Bonham were on a salary originally and it was Page calling the shots and paying for the sessions.

For Zep I, Page re-worked quite a few ideas that he first tried out in the Yardbirds and other settings: Dazed and Confused, White Summer/Black Mountain Side and also 'Beck's Bolero'.

But to get back on topic.... I think it's very useful to analyze these recordings and learn about the gear and techniques used but to really understand what's going on, you need to go back and check out Page's influences as well. He really went back to 50ies recording technology, especially the Sun studio stuff with it's compressed ambience/slapback stylings. Slapback echo was essential to Led Zeppelin, it's all over Plant's vocals and surely essential to the famed 'Levee' drum sound as well. The same goes for distant micing.

Page once said that in the same way that The Rolling Stones were considered to be the sons of Muddy Waters, he liked to see Led Zeppelin as the sons of Howlin' Wolf. It makes total sense and Wolf's Sun and Chess sides are a virtual blueprint for what became 'heavy rock'. Check out that stuff, it's amazing!

[lordnielson]

Steal, rob, copy, emulate, assimilate.. don't thieve other peoples entire songs, but do whatever it takes to move YOU forward and keep you inspired. Cos without inspiration it's really hard to get anything good done in this line of work.

It's been said and done by all the greats. Sometimes the reference is crystal clear if you recognise the original, sometimes it's not.

How do you learn rock guitar without learning "other peoples music" ?
Is that like learning to read without books ?

[beechstudio]

Originally Posted by Paul EQ

Jimmy Page was famous for using RCA BA6A limiters on his acoustic guitars.

I read that too! I also read that Jimmy loved them so much that he bought up as many of those BA6A's as he could get his hands on. Which drove up the value(price) of those puppys up in the 70's. I think I still have that magazine article. I'll have to look it up again!

[skybluerental]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

Well, those books serve many different purposes... I mostly look at them as describing the processes that took place to record those great records. Not so much the equipment.


Nothing is wrong with discussing it... and I certainly wouldn't tell anyone to "get their own sound". But, the fact is, the answers people are looking for have less to do with a certain preamp or compressor... and more to do with the actual guitar rig, and the player himself. A lot of hobbyist's will blow big bucks trying to get a Helios preamp or Rev E 1176.... But, will it really get you ANY closer to that sound? Of course not.... Think about all of the other aspects:

The player
The room
The guitar rig
The microphone
The TAPE machine (how quickly people forget how much this impacts the sound)

The thing is, all of the things that really contribute the most to the sound are the absolute hardest to obtain.... the fingers, the room acoustics, the big Ampex, etc. I wish it were as simple as saying if you buy a Helios and an 1176 you'll hear the magic, but in reality those two pieces were used because they were THERE... they weren't sought out for and brought in for that day. If there was a Neve and a LA3A, it still would have sounded basically the same.

if you read my original post, i was asking more about acoustic sounds.
the ac gtr sound on "thats the way" is most certainly heavily influenced by the mic and compressor. im sorry but that kind of sound isnt just all "in the fingers"........

i agree that electrics are much more influenced by guitar, pedals, rooms and amps than pre amps or comps, but there are certainly many zep sounds that are heavily influenced by the recording chain and effects. i hoped this forum would be a discussion of that, not people poo pooing the notion of said discussion.

clearly page had a respect for the sonic aesthetic that certain gear brought to his sound. i read a post by steve albini on another forum where he said page brought 2 RCA BA6A compressors to a session specifically to help record his guitars. he brought them for the same reason he probably brought his favorite guitars, amps and pedals..........
because he likes the way they contribute to his recorded sound.

[vernier]

If you don't have a BA6A, a UA175, 176, or 177 will get you there, or others, like Gates and Collins.

Also, the acoustic sound changes dramatically because he first used a J200, then switched to D28, which is boomy in comparison.

And the big factor is he recorded to tape. Zeppelin always sound fantastic because it was all analog, all tape.
'

[Audio Hombre]

Originally Posted by vernier

Also, the acoustic sound changes dramatically because he first used a J200, then switched to D28, which is boomy in comparison.

interesting.i always found the jumbo to be the boomy one, at least more so than the d28

[WavesEvents]

Originally Posted by skybluerental

if you read my original post, i was asking more about acoustic sounds.
the ac gtr sound on "thats the way" is most certainly heavily influenced by the mic and compressor. im sorry but that kind of sound isnt just all "in the fingers"........

i agree that electrics are much more influenced by guitar, pedals, rooms and amps than pre amps or comps, but there are certainly many zep sounds that are heavily influenced by the recording chain and effects. i hoped this forum would be a discussion of that, not people poo pooing the notion of said discussion.

clearly page had a respect for the sonic aesthetic that certain gear brought to his sound. i read a post by steve albini on another forum where he said page brought 2 RCA BA6A compressors to a session specifically to help record his guitars. he brought them for the same reason he probably brought his favorite guitars, amps and pedals..........
because he likes the way they contribute to his recorded sound.

Why not ask Eddie Kramer himself – he’ll be answering questions as a part of the waves/logic tour he’s doing.

[vernier]

interesting.i always found the jumbo to be the boomy one, at least more so than the d28

I should have said thicker or something, its difficult to explain them guitars.
'

[Rusty Cage]

GW: "Houses" is so bright-sounding. Did you vari-speed the tape up a notch to get everything to sparkle more??

Page: No, the only song I can think of that we vari-speeded up were a couple of overdubs on "Achilles Last Stand". However, I applied the vari-speed to the overall track of "No Quarter". I dropped the whole song a quarter

I have long suspected the use of varispeed on the vocals on that album. It's rumoured that RP had vocal chord surgery - which personally I think accounts for the ragged quality his voice had on many Physical Graffiti cuts like Custard Pie and Sick Again, and the tonal change and pitching problems he had for about a decade after Houses.

And if that's true, and JP is keeping mum, what else isn't he telling? Pick up what you can by all means, but take it all with a pinch of salt too.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by Rusty Cage

I have long suspected the use of varispeed on the vocals on that album. It's rumoured that RP had vocal chord surgery - which personally I think accounts for the ragged quality his voice had on many Physical Graffiti cuts like Custard Pie and Sick Again, and the tonal change and pitching problems he had for about a decade after Houses.

And if that's true, and JP is keeping mum, what else isn't he telling? Pick up what you can by all means, but take it all with a pinch of salt too.

yeah when he sings the line 'i had a dream' thats a dead give away of like -50
on the varispeed. They should have called the song Alvin and the Chipmunks at Hedley Grange. Still works though

[Marlowe]

Despite what Jimmy says, those vocals are varispeeded. The whole track seems to be sped up to some extent too.

And yeah, RP had surgery in 1973 and perhaps it contributed to his voice's downward path. I suppose the heavy touring, smoking and drugging may have some effect as well.

I sure do love his ragged vocals from PG, though!

Originally Posted by Rusty Cage

I have long suspected the use of varispeed on the vocals on that album. It's rumoured that RP had vocal chord surgery - which personally I think accounts for the ragged quality his voice had on many Physical Graffiti cuts like Custard Pie and Sick Again, and the tonal change and pitching problems he had for about a decade after Houses.

And if that's true, and JP is keeping mum, what else isn't he telling? Pick up what you can by all means, but take it all with a pinch of salt too.

[vernier]

[Sqye]

.

gear, shmear......talent, shmalent...


you guys are ALL wrong...

led zeppelin was ALL ABOUT big-ass bell bottoms with funky belts......

.

[ianmiller]

Just one additional thought from a guitar player and that is that equipment clearly impacts sound but technique is vital with Page's playing. I could not figure out why (no matter how much distortion and stuff you put on it) playing the basic notes of whole lotta love sounds nothing like the power of Zep playing it.

I then found a Guitar mag when Pagey gives the way he actually plays it (and four sticks) bending notes under the adjacent open string giving it natural phasing and much more "ooomph". Bottom line, it is the interplay of player and equipment that makes it all work and I am pretty sure if I played through the exact stuff Page did, I would not sound anything like him - "cause he is (gulp) better than me!

[d. gauss]

if yer a real zep junkie, take some time/money and track down the japanese released complete outtakes bootleg set (12 cd's worth)! truly amazing insight into how these songs came to be in the studio.

i.e. an all page (bandless) version of "10 years gone" as he builds up the massive wall of guitar harmonies one by one. the studio run throughs of "black dog" (the stop/start breaks are MUCH shorter and kick in before the vocal line is over), etc etc. etc.

fascinating stuff.