Chandler, Wunder, Focusrite, Vintech, Side by Side Test at Deaf DOg Music

[John Ovnik]

Mike from Vintage King was nice enough to let us audtion a few newer Mic Pre's before we purchase a large package of equipment and the results were ear opening. We side by side listened to the Wunder PEQ1R, the Chandler EMI TG2, the Chandler LTD-1, the Vintech X73i, my Focusrite ISA 110 (ch#57 from my console, and one of my Groove Tube VIPRE's. Well let me start by saying nothing about the Vintech(it sucks IMHO)

The rest were interesting. The Chandler EMI TG2 (great low end punch) was my favorite other than the Focusrite ISA 110. The Wunder was also great (the high end was not as good as the Focusrite, but I liked it). I heard from Mike that there is a new modified Wunder PEQ1R thathas a more open high end. The Chandler LTD-1 didn't feel as good as the Chandler EMI TG2 in the low mids (splitting hairs now) The Groove Tube VIPRE sounded muddy. I don't remember it ever sounding this bad, and the


dfegad Vintech X73i was horrible.

The vintage Focusrite Console still rocks...

We saved the recorded samples and are going to get the modified Wunder PEQ1R and an API or 2 to add to the test. We might test another VIPRE also to confirm it's suckness.

[Johns]

What sources did you listen to for the test?

[John Ovnik]

Several, Guitar & Bass AMP/DI, Yamaha 7' Piano, Vocal, Still testing now.

[not_so_new]

Oh this thread has the makings of "one for the hall of fame" for sure....

They way you posted your "results" and how you choose to describe them is going to make this thread a free for all....

I take bets that someone will lock it down in less than 20 posts. Any takers??



Just kidding..... well just kidding about taking bets anyway I think it is going to be a knock down drag out fistfight (glad I could be one of the first posts…LOL)

[not_so_new]

Oh and if you are going to continue to "test" how about you toss a Great River MP2, Phoenix DRS and one of Geoff T's GTQ-2's?? Seems like you are missing some of the Gearslutz standbys.

[John Ovnik]

It is as posted only a humble opinion. You don't have to love the posting, right?

We are always listening...and learning...at our own slow, slow, speed.

[PRuthenburg]

So what observations did you have on the Yamaha piano trks.
Haven't used any of these pres on my C7 before so just curious.
What mics were you using on it?

Thanks,
Pete

[Aearth]

John

Try ...one mic with spliter cable into the LTD-1 (set eq abit on the bright side) and TG2......record on 2 tracks and mix/blend the 2 tracks together how you like. NICE

Nick

[ziegenh5]

It seems like a very reasonable conclusion to me. If you have a great console, with great pre's in it already, external mic pre's are way overrated and not neccesary IMO.
Sean

[chrisso]

It seems reasonable to me too.
It's obviously been spelt out loud it's a personal opinion.
However, a friend of a friend also test drove quite a few pre's and said his favourite was the Chandler TG.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally posted by ziegenh5
It seems like a very reasonable conclusion to me. If you have a great console, with great pre's in it already, external mic pre's are way overrated and not neccesary IMO.
Sean

And what exactly do you think the percentage of Gearslutz owning either a Neve 80 series, Trident A Range, API or EMI console is?

The exploding boom of people buying these Hi End Pre's is not because some big studio owner is getting bored.

It's because more and more people are gettting into recording due to the affordability of DAW based recording.

And as a Mixing Engineer who gets to mix alot of these tracks, I thank God daily that Fletcher is fitting these neophite engineers with a capable front end.

No Offense. Really.

[John Ovnik]

Originally posted by Produceher
And what exactly do you think the percentage of Gearslutz owning either a Neve 80 series, Trident A Range, API or EMI console is?

The exploding boom of people buying these Hi End Pre's is not because some big studio owner is getting bored.

It's because more and more people are gettting into recording due to the affordability of DAW based recording.

And as a Mixing Engineer who gets to mix alot of these tracks, I thank God daily that Fletcher is fitting these neophite engineers with a capable front end.

No Offense. Really.

Why would you suggest that anyone is bored because they make the time to evaluate the current tools of the trade? It's funny that you say "big studio owner". We don't even rent the place to the public. We use it for projects we are producing for the most part. In that sence it's small, and private, but very productive.

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by John Ovnik
Mike from Vintage King was nice enough to let us audtion a few newer Mic Pre's before we purchase a large package of equipment and the results were ear opening. We side by side listened to the Wunder PEQ1R, the Chandler EMI TG2, the Chandler LTD-1, the Vintech X73i, my Focusrite ISA 110 (ch#57 from my console, and one of my Groove Tube VIPRE's. Well let me start by saying nothing about the Vintech(it sucks IMHO)

The rest were interesting. The Chandler EMI TG2 (great low end punch) was my favorite other than the Focusrite ISA 110. The Wunder was also great (the high end was not as good as the Focusrite, but I liked it). I heard from Mike that there is a new modified Wunder PEQ1R thathas a more open high end. The Chandler LTD-1 didn't feel as good as the Chandler EMI TG2 in the low mids (splitting hairs now) The Groove Tube VIPRE sounded muddy. I don't remember it ever sounding this bad, and the


dfegad Vintech X73i was horrible.

The vintage Focusrite Console still rocks...

We saved the recorded samples and are going to get the modified Wunder PEQ1R and an API or 2 to add to the test. We might test another VIPRE also to confirm it's suckness.

If you didn't track an entire song with the gear, swapping out pres, documenting the changes and print alternate mixes of the results, it seems rather futile. How something sounds solo usually has no bearing unless all you do is voiceovers. Some of the nastiest, raunchiest most repulsive sounds I've soloed sounded perfect in the context of a mix. Conversely, some of the sweetest, cleanest prettiest tracks soloed don't cut it in the context of a mix.

[John Ovnik]

Originally posted by bloodstone
If you didn't track an entire song with the gear, swapping out pres, documenting the changes and print alternate mixes of the results, it seems rather futile. How something sounds solo usually has no bearing unless all you do is voiceovers. Some of the nastiest, raunchiest most repulsive sounds I've soloed sounded perfect in the context of a mix. Conversely, some of the sweetest, cleanest prettiest tracks soloed don't cut it in the context of a mix.

Sorry, No voice overs here...There was no mention of "sweet" or "clean" in our posting...Just our opinion. If you have ever worked on a Focusrite Console, you would know that they are agressive as can be, and I've never heard of them described as "sweet" or "clean".

We are currently recording three different albums, one for Interscope. I'm not sure I'll go as far as you suggest, but if I had nothing better to do I might. It's a few months off at best. I'm sorry you don't value our pathetic offering.

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by John Ovnik
Sorry, No voice overs here...There was no mention of "sweet" or "clean" in our posting...Just our opinion. If you have ever worked on a Focusrite Console, you would know that they are agressive as can be, and I've never heard of them described as "sweet" or "clean".

We are currently recording three different albums, one for Interscope. I'm not sure I'll go as far as you suggest, but if I had nothing better to do I might. It's a few months off at best. I'm sorry you don't value our pathetic offering.

I value your offering, and didn't use the word pathetic. IMHO it's a little dangerous to make value judgments on gear without some kind of mix context, that's all. I've made a lot of mistakes buying mics and pres out of context and most of those decisions I regret. E.g. Neumann TLM 103 v. AKG Solidtube v. Rode NTV. I bought the Solidtube. YMMV Peace out...

[John Ovnik]

Originally posted by bloodstone
I value your offering, and didn't use the word pathetic. IMHO it's a little dangerous to make value judgments on gear without some kind of mix context, that's all. I've made a lot of mistakes buying mics and pres out of context and most of those decisions I regret. E.g. Neumann TLM 103 v. AKG Solidtube v. Rode NTV. I bought the Solidtube. YMMV Peace out...

Been there

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally posted by John Ovnik
Why would you suggest that anyone is bored because they make the time to evaluate the current tools of the trade? It's funny that you say "big studio owner". We don't even rent the place to the public. We use it for projects we are producing for the most part. In that sence it's small, and private, but very productive.

I was referring to what ziegenh5 was talking about.

I have no problem with what you guys are doing.

I'm testing a bunch of Pre's myself this week.

Enjoy.

[squeegybug]

...saying nothing about the Vintech... Groove Tube VIPRE sounded muddy. I don't remember it ever sounding this bad... VIPRE also to confirm it's suckness

Two out six respected preamps "sucked"? I'd check cables, mic compatibility, gain, and impedance matches...

Put the X73i on 300 ohm, turn the output gain all the way up, plug in an AEA R84 with DiMarzio cables -- it doesn't suck.

Steve

[gabler]

The Vipre doesnt suck! Was it vocals you recorded or something else?

[MIKEHARRIS]

these observations are to be valued...valid comparisons by professionals. always beats dilitantes speculation

[neve1073]

I love the chandler tg2. It gets a lot of use in my rack which also includes very nice specimens of neve 1073 and a good v76.

[Leo Goler]

Originally posted by ziegenh5
It seems like a very reasonable conclusion to me. If you have a great console, with great pre's in it already, external mic pre's are way overrated and not neccesary IMO.
Sean

I have to agree here.

Conversely, some of the sweetest, cleanest prettiest tracks soloed don't cut it in the context of a mix

"You" then have to revaluate the way "you" mix and arrange music. It still has to be sweet and clean in the mix. Well... depends on music genre, off course - RATM kind of vocal can be put nicely with a Behringer pre and 58.

[gracejames]

With any of the above pres, if i call myself an engineer/producer and can't make that sound good or work in a mix, there's something wrong with me. Not the gear. jmho. I can relate to having a favorite pre in comparison to others but to say any in this group absolutely sucks....ridiculous to me.

[bloodstone]

Originally posted by Leo Goler
I have to agree here.



"You" then have to revaluate the way "you" mix and arrange music. It still has to be sweet and clean in the mix. Well... depends on music genre, off course - RATM kind of vocal can be put nicely with a Behringer pre and 58.

What I meant was that something that sounds raunchy soloed will sound sweet and clean (or at least appropriate and a good fit for the song) in the context of a mix. I've experienced this numerous times, especially with singing voice and bass guitar. My reason for asserting this was to suggest that it's best to assess how good or bad a mic pre, mic or anything else for that matter is by tracking and/or mixing with the tool for a good while under various circumstances before you decide how useful it really is, i.e. walking into a store, plugging mic A into pre B, putting on headphones and singing isn't the best way to assess real world ("combat", as Fletcher might have said) value. YMMV.

[Teacher]

Originally posted by John Ovnik
dfegad Vintech X73i was horrible.

LOL I can imagine Fletcher nodding his head in concordance

[Fleaman]

Originally posted by John Ovnik
....The Groove Tube VIPRE sounded muddy. I don't remember it ever sounding this bad, ....

So, apparently you've used another Vipre that sounded good?

We might test another VIPRE also to confirm it's suckness.

That’s smart (not being sarcastic here).

But, being the Vipre has so much adjustability (rise time, impedance, etc.), are you saying that this particular Vipre was muddy on all the different combinations of settings?

....Maybe a bad tube here?



Fleaman

[Fleaman]

Originally posted by Teacher
LOL I can imagine Fletcher nodding his head in concordance

Or, like the Vipre (that Fletcher seems to like), maybe they should send another Vintech along with the Vipre to rule out a defective unit.



Fleaman

[steins]

Originally posted by bloodstone
My reason for asserting this was to suggest that it's best to assess how good or bad a mic pre, mic or anything else for that matter is by tracking and/or mixing with the tool for a good while under various circumstances before you decide how useful it really is, i.e. walking into a store, plugging mic A into pre B, putting on headphones and singing isn't the best way to assess real world ("combat", as Fletcher might have said) value. YMMV.

So true! I wish I had learned this lesson early on. 24 sources tracked with Behringer pre's can sound pretty good by themselves. Start mixing, and go wonder why it sounds like crap. Record the same 24 sources with hi quality pre's. Listening to the tracks in solo, there might just be a subtle difference between the cheap and the expensive pre's. Start mixing, and the tracks almost mixes themselves.

Go figure.


Stein Tore

[waltrubus]

just currious
vintage king doesn't sell vintech.
Where did you get it ? Maybe you have a bad unit.
Almost everyone loves the x73i.

[Dr Gruv]

Originally posted by John Ovnik
Been there

Hey John,

Nice to see you here... Hope all is well
- Michael