Eletronic click and real drummers?

[Logan Connery]

I was wondering if everybody uses an eletronic click when recording drummers. I feel they get too concerned missing the beat and end up losing the feeling and interpretation. The style is rock!
Please a few opinions!
Thanks

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Logan Connery
I was wondering if everybody uses an eletronic click when recording drummers. I feel they get too concerned missing the beat and end up losing the feeling and interpretation. The style is rock!
Please a few opinions!
Thanks

Much like eating oysters and reading James Joyce, it takes practice to play with a click. A number of the guys who work for me tell me that they don't actually 'hear' the click once they start playing because they are right on top of it.

When great drummers play with a click, the feel doesn't go away.

[7rojo7]

AMEN

[Fleaman]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
Much like eating oysters and reading James Joyce, it takes practice to play with a click. A number of the guys who work for me tell me that they don't actually 'hear' the click once they start playing because they are right on top of it.

When great drummers play with a click, the feel doesn't go away.

I guess it depends on what you're willing to live with. Mitch Mitchell didn't and probably couldn't play to a click with his wild style and I would be fine with that. He was a little more free-form type of playing anyways.

Same for Keith Moon.

I know and have recorded a fantastic Mitch Mitchell style drummer in a psychedelic punk rock band...he's really one of the most amazing drummers I've ever seen (never 'made' it though). You couldn't get a click track anywhere near him and that was just fine with me. Yeah, his tempo wasn't the greatest, far from it, but they sacrificed a little in tempo and gained a lot in some amazing tracks. What the hell, not only was it rock and roll, it was psychedelic punk rock and roll!

OTOH, a straight ahead pop song with simple beats and no tempo fluctuations (intended ones) can be just the style that a click would work well in.

YMMV.



Fleaman

[alphajerk]

i dont ever use clicks.

[Musiclab]

Part of being a good musician is having solid fundamentals, being able to play in time is a big part of that. It's rare that a drummer has come here and not been able to play with a click and was any good. BTW Keith Moon absolutely could play to a click. The who would play to prerecorded tracks when they did songs from who's next and Quadrephenia. As a matter of fact I saw the who at the garden once when they started Baba O'Riley and moon didnt have his headphones on. They had to stop, rewind the deck and start over.

[Fleaman]

Originally posted by Musiclab
Part of being a good musician is having solid fundamentals, being able to play in time is a big part of that. It's rare that a drummer has come here and not been able to play with a click and was any good. BTW Keith Moon absolutely could play to a click. The who would play to prerecorded tracks when they did songs from who's next and Quadrephenia. As a matter of fact I saw the who at the garden once when they started Baba O'Riley and moon didnt have his headphones on. They had to stop, rewind the deck and start over.

So, was Moon playing to prerecorded tracks or a click?

[chrisso]

Originally posted by Fleaman
So, was Moon playing to prerecorded tracks or a click?

Does it matter? It's virtually the same thing. If I was Moonie I'd probably be playing to the sequencer part and a click.

I agree that drummers should be able to play to a click.
I find an actual click sound is more uncomfortable to play with.
I have absolutely no problem playing to an 8's or 16's shaker pattern, or a guide drum machine etc....

[David Herbert]

As a drummer I think my best performances were to a click. Some drummers or songs don't need a click though.
If you want to see an absolutely insane performance to a click rent "The Kids Are Alright". The studio recording of Won't Get Fooled Again is on it (or is it Who Are You?). David

[brendondp]

Okay, I'll try and be a little diplomatic without totally disregarding my preferences.

I have absolutely no bones with the Bonham/Moon/Watts style of drumming - dynamic, shifting, grooving - because their drumming was intrinsicly linked to the music they made. Time...? It's just never mattered to me. I love the music. I love the drumming. No issue. In fact, if pressed, I say I prefer the "organic-ness" of the click-free rock approach vs. the tight "processed" nature of quanticized tracks, which to my ears, often rob the music of "groove" and "feel". Yes Virginia, it's very subjective.

But yes, I've played to a click many times, mostly to tracks in Reason or other pre-programmed tracks, that have usually been made prior to me playing on the track. It's taken me practise (and I much prefer a loop or shaker/tambourine than listening to a tock-tock-tock), but I've adapted and feel okay with it. For tracks where the loops are going to be on the finished product, then yeah, of course.

But if we're talking rock(!) here, like the Doors, or the Stones, or Zep, or the Icarus Line, or Shellac, or Isis, then click-schmick. If the drummer can make music without a click then great. If the band can make music without a click, even better. I can't tell you how many of my favourite rock (and non-rock) albums have been made sans click and without quanticization.

Some drummers really prefer playing to a click, in which case forcing them to do otherwise may prove counter-productive. If you're recording everything seperately, a solution may be just to have him/her play to a guitar scratch track that, say, the guitarist has done in sync with a click/loop.

Blahblahblah. It's so subjective. But, goddammit, I love Bonham and Watts and Moon, and the absence of a click (on many, not all tracks) has never caused me concern, much as I'm sure it never has them.

Cheers,

bdp

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by David Herbert
As a drummer I think my best performances were to a click. Some drummers or songs don't need a click though.
If you want to see an absolutely insane performance to a click rent "The Kids Are Alright". The studio recording of Won't Get Fooled Again is on it (or is it Who Are You?). David

On the album "the kids are alright" the difference between Moon's playing (live, not studio) with and without a click is TREMENDOUS. He's WAY better without a click! Just kills his style.

I don't know if it's a similar issue but also check out "Stairway to Heaven" from "The Song Remains the Same" to see how dead that groove is for Bonzo, for whatever reason. It's just not at all the same as the other tracks. Maybe it's just having JPJ on keys bass instead of bass guitar, I don't know. Or maybe the mellotron stuff was pre-recorded.

As far as I'm concerned, click tracks and music are mutually incompatible. Music has tempo shifts and subtleties- ritardandos, accelerandos, a chorus at a slightly different tempo than the verse, and if the last verse is the same as the first, something is seriously wrong. Clicks can't do ANY of that.

[brendondp]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
As far as I'm concerned, click tracks and music are mutually incompatible. Music has tempo shifts and subtleties- ritardandos, accelerandos, a chorus at a slightly different tempo than the verse, and if the last verse is the same as the first, something is seriously wrong. Clicks can't do ANY of that.

Ted,

I think I may have to form an alliance with you.

Why do I love it when the tempo increases slightly before the chorus, and then holds over the course of the chorus, to come back down a little at the verse, to alter slightly at the bridge and then belt it on the outro?

So often I hear a song and think, "Dude, it's the chorus - pump it up a little would ya?" But of course, then I remember the producer wanted it "tight" and "locked down", and they shifted all the tracks in Pro Tools anyway.

One way around this is to have the click/loop alter tempo at significant markers - 120 for V1, 122 for the Ch, 121 for V2, 122 for the Ch, 120 for the bridge, 122 for the solo and 123(!!) for the Ch and Outro. That sometimes works quite well.

Of course, you could just play sans click and do it because it felt right, but no one plays by feel anymore, do they?

Cheers,

bdp

[DirkB]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
Much like eating oysters and reading James Joyce, it takes practice to play with a click. A number of the guys who work for me tell me that they don't actually 'hear' the click once they start playing because they are right on top of it.

When great drummers play with a click, the feel doesn't go away.

I'm a drummer and have been playing with a click, live and in the studio, for more than 10 years.
What Dave said is true: you don't even hear the click anymore. In fact, when I'm not hearing it, I know I'm good...

Greetings,
Dirk

[David R.]

Recording drummers with the rest of the band, click is not necessary. If I am planning to piece the rest of the music together after, you betcha.

Of course this can change depending on the drummer.

Rule #1 - There are no rules
Rule #2 - See rule #1

[quadwould]

as i usually come into a project at the editing,mixing stage i have to Deal with the fact that there is a click usually, and the performance, though it may have Some feel, probably suffered because the drummer just doesn't click with clicks. so edit away i must... but only to achive a bit more feel, and sometimes to get the ****** back on the damn beat.

(I am a drummer i can say these things)




Toolskid, now where is he?? he's a drum editing guru

[Fleaman]

Originally posted by brendondp
Ted,


Of course, you could just play sans click and do it because it felt right, but no one plays by feel anymore, do they?

Cheers,

bdp

It seems like it.

Strident timings these days seems to be the requirement.

Along with Autotune, vocal align, beat doctor.

Ok, maybe not everything on the Radio has been chopped to pcs by all these things, but it sure seems to sound like it.

While it's a different argument (is it?), big label projects essentially require all of tools to the trade to be used. Their idea of a 'Perfect' album.

I think I’m straying OT here, but I long for the days when I thought 'Punching In' was cheating



Fleaman

[Ted Nightshade]

Well, the click or metronome as we used to call it (something about the pendulum motion is just groovier, don'tcha think? For a machine anyway ) is a great practice tool. It can be cool to reference it to get the tempo that was so good before.

I could use a metronome that was infinitely adjustable, so I could get just the right tempo. I so often need something in between the settings. Anybody know of such a thing? Bonus points if it stops when you look at it mean.

[Fleaman]

>>
>>
>>
Originally posted by Fleaman:
So, was Moon playing to prerecorded tracks or a click?

Originally posted by chrisso
Does it matter? It's virtually the same thing.

Not the same thing to me....not at all.

You could have pre-recorded tracks, Gtr, Bass, Vocals and the drummer can easily lay his parts down to said tracks, it's virtually the same as playing with the band live. No click needs to be involved---for the drummer.

Or,

You could be tracking the song from scratch. You got your click, and the rest of the band. The band will rely on the drummer to keep time/tempo with click, and the rest of the band will play in time with the drummer. If the drummer keeps time, all is well.

These 2 examples are completely different...to me.



Fleaman

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by Fleaman
>>
>>
>>
Originally posted by Fleaman:
So, was Moon playing to prerecorded tracks or a click?



Not the same thing to me....not at all.

You could have pre-recorded tracks, Gtr, Bass, Vocals and the drummer can easily lay his parts down to said tracks, it's virtually the same as playing with the band live. No click needs to be involved---for the drummer.

Or,

You could be tracking the song from scratch. You got your click, and the rest of the band. The band will rely on the drummer to keep time/tempo with click, and the rest of the band will play in time with the drummer. If the drummer keeps time, all is well.

These 2 examples are completely different...to me.



Fleaman

They are indeed different. But both involve playing with a something (backing tracks or a click) that can't hear you and is not playing any differently because you are playing- neither can play along with you.

[Fleaman]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
They are indeed different. But both involve playing with a something (backing tracks or a click) that can't hear you and is not playing any differently because you are playing- neither can play along with you.

Good point.

Although, I don't know many (if any?) that start tracking the vocals first, to a click. Then add the Guitars, bass and drums last.

In theory, if everyone in the band had the same near perfect timing to a click, then it shouldn't matter (in a sense) who you start tracking first with a click.

It's just easier to fix vocals than drums.

Amongst many other things...

Fleaman

[dale116dot7]

I've done it twice. The drummer needed vocals so she did not get lost in the song. There were a lot of tempo and time signature changes in the piece, it was easy to get lost.

One other place where a click has proven to be almost essential is when a 5-string banjo player gets thrown in to do some overdubs at the last minute. That Scruggs-style roll really sounds unsettled as an overdub at the best of times, without a click it is most often a trainwreck waiting to (or most times, not waiting to) happen. I think it's hard to lock to a 4/4 beat on the kit when you're playing a constant (never-ending it seems) stream of 16th notes and trying to get four in per beat. The slightest speed-up makes the player have to play catch-up.

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by dale116dot7
I've done it twice. The drummer needed vocals so she did not get lost in the song. There were a lot of tempo and time signature changes in the piece, it was easy to get lost.

One other place where a click has proven to be almost essential is when a 5-string banjo player gets thrown in to do some overdubs at the last minute. That Scruggs-style roll really sounds unsettled as an overdub at the best of times, without a click it is most often a trainwreck waiting to (or most times, not waiting to) happen. I think it's hard to lock to a 4/4 beat on the kit when you're playing a constant (never-ending it seems) stream of 16th notes and trying to get four in per beat. The slightest speed-up makes the player have to play catch-up.

This may not always be practical, for whatever reason, but I would solve all of the above problems by tracking the band together at the same time.

[heinz]

playing w/click really is trivial for a pro drummer.

much more challenging is maintaining an adequate supply of beer and smokes at the session.

[ajcamlet]

i gotta say the most humiliating thing for me to witness is a drummer trying to play to a clik, and failing. As an engineer, i have watched the morale of band sink to the lowest depths when they see thier drummer- whom may or may not had given them killer live performances- falls completly flat on thier face in the studio.

Makes me cringe....

[Ted Nightshade]

Originally posted by heinz
playing w/click really is trivial for a pro drummer.

It may be child's play for a pro drummer (I'm thinking that depends a LOT on your definition of "pro"), but it still limits their expression of tempo severely. Damn shame with a good drummer. That's a lot of the whole point of drumming.

[not_so_new]

One of the best drummers around these parts (guy is an absolute MONSTER) told me once that a really good drummer can play to a click and still sound human. The key is to know the click so well that you are good enough to play on top and maybe a little in front when you want to push the song and then play back in the pocket when you want to bring the song back.

I play to a click all the time when I am practicing because it helps me to know my weaknesses (I rush out of fills to my downs on the 1 sometimes) and because of this when I am tracking I kind of know when I am pushing and laying back. I am not really good at it like the guy above (hey I am a guitar player first after all ) but I know what he is talking about and it does work.

Yes I play a bunch of different styles and have done session work on different projects as well, no complaints playing to a click here from me or my clients...

[Ted Nightshade]

It's true, very few of us seem to miss spontaneity and flexibility of tempo.

At least in modern pop music- anybody recorded any Cuban or African drumming with a click recently? Any Chopin?

[7rojo7]

"a really good drummer can play to a click and still sound human." "play on top and maybe a little in front when you want to push the song and then play back in the pocket when you want to bring the song back." or other niceties.
I've recorded Bernard Purdie (just one example) a few times and this is how he did it and it really sounds like the song jumps or swings or does what ever it has to do. I've recorded a bunch of others too that can do the same thing. No Sweat.
I happen to like ritardando and accellerando a fermata (corona in italian) a tempo jump. depends on the music.
I find that it's great to start the song especially if a groove is really only working at a specific tempo. It's also tied up with the melody which is super important. after the first verse mute it, you can always realign it to the live track later.
For some types of music it just doesn't work.
Sometimes it's not the drummer's fault, they can get pulled off by the rest of the band.
If I'm producing I always have a click ready with the preferred tempo of the song. I've always been able to edit from different takes or pickups, it's engineering 101, you'd probably be surprised how much of your favorite music has really been produced, including moving anticipations and hesitations and band punchin pickups etc... varispeed, tom and cymbal overdubs.
organic shmorganic
it comes from the movie industry though, interesting huh?

[Telecastr]

Originally posted by not_so_new
The key is to know the click so well that you are good enough to play on top and maybe a little in front when you want to push the song and then play back in the pocket when you want to bring the song back.

great point.

also, another thing about the greats like Moon and Bohnam, etc. is that these guys also were around in a time where discipline in practicing one's instrument was an automatic. all the stories you hear about all these guys, not only drummers, practicing for days at a time. now, you'd be suprised at the amount of people who only practice when they have band practice. there is no more discipline in developing the skill anymore. having bands play to click tracks who never practice to a click is a waste of time, theirs and ours.

i tell bands to practice for a couple months with a metronome, then come record with me. even if they can't follow the click after that two months, they are still always much tighter than they were. the band i recorded a couple weeks ago said their drummer could play to a click because he'd been playing drums for 8 years. i asked if he practiced to a metronome and they said no. he ended up following the click ok, but he's still got late hits all over the place. it wasn't the click messing him up either. that's how he plays live too. i've seend this band live over the last 2 years and have not seen much improvement in how well they play together. they're just as mediocre as they were the first time i saw them. it's a shame because the songwriter is pretty good. unless they get rid of the drummer, they won't go far. the rest of the band is tighter on tempo, mostly because the guitar players are used to playing with delay pedals. the problem we ran into when recording, is that the guitars can't play in time with the delay or they're off with the drums. if they play to the drums, they can't use delay or the guitars sound way off.

i think it's important for drummers especially to practice with a metronome always. once they get disciplined enough in keeping a steady beat, then i say go without a click, but only after they've learned how to play with one. you can't do it the other way around.

[Dave Martin]

I should also point out that the drummers in this area generally use shakers of some sort for a click, not that 'tick tock' sound. Some will also use loops, sequences, or whatever works for them. But when the producer says, "Let's try it 2 clicks faster", the drummer needs to be ablt to increase the BPM by exactly two clicks.