When you are recording guitars, how much room are you micing?

fuzzmike · 11th February 2005

When you are recording guitars, how much room do you use? Do you set up a room mic, deep in the room? Do you set up a mic close to the cab set to omni or 8? Do you just fake it with outboard reverb?

DirkB · 11th February 2005

El. guitar always close, SM57 against the grill and R-121 about 5" from grill. Of course since the R121 is figure of 8 some space is captured, but since the amps are usually LOUD

it's very dry, not alot of room.

One thing: I'm mostly (95%) of the time recording heavy guitars. When I need something cleaner, often some sort of analog delay pedal is added if we want some depth...

Greetings,
Dirk

Ol' Betsey · 11th February 2005

Hi Fuzz,

Depends on what type of sounds I'm recording but like Dirk, I'm usually right up on the speaker unless I'm using the room for effect.

DON'T under-estimate the effect the room has on the sound EVEN when close micing though.

If I'm in a less-than-ideal space I really try to keep the sound as dry as possible (go-bo's etc.).

The 121 is another favourite of mine and because of the Fig 8 I pretty much always line something up behind the mic.

R.

Lee Knight · 11th February 2005

My room is 12'x20'. Combi control/recording room. Last night I got a sound very much like Richie Blockmore's on Machine Head. I put a Senn 609 3" off the grill, angled to be on axis with the cone halfway between the edge and the center of the speaker. Then... 17' away I pointed a C1 away from the amp into the opposing wall. Panned them -75 and +75. Awesome...

Drumsound · 11th February 2005

I prefer a close mic. I feel timing is usually better, because the player is reacting to the other tracks/players and I'm not introducing the slight delay from the amp sound getting to the mic. Sometimes I combine a close and a far. There are also times where the effect of distance is of crucial importance. I was going for a Jimmy Vaughn pointy Tele thing recently. The mic was about eight feet or so back and the room was very lively and it sounded great.

Jules · 11th February 2005

Very little

maskedman72 · 11th February 2005

none.......ever. (i record mostly metal/death metal styles)

Bob Olhsson · 12th February 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Jules
Very little

less than that!

Joba · 12th February 2005

Usually one or two close mics and one 2-3m out. The room mic can be a condenser in cardioid or omni. I often delay the room mic and use that instead of a delay on the close mic.

PaRaNoId · 12th February 2005

I mic the grille with a dynamic, a LDC or MDC 2 feet away from the amp, and an SDC at least 6 feet way pointed away from the amp. I then blend and pan to taste. I always time-align the 2ft mic with the close-in one, but i never time-align the distant/room mic. BTW i'm big on using natural revreb on most instruments...

Knastratt · 12th February 2005

If the room sounds excellent - a lot. Stereo ambience is gold worth in the mix.

But if the ambience sucks - AltiVerb is a good option.

For really heavy guitars = bone dry. Even DI'ed.

Lord Fear · 12th February 2005

I usually use a 57 and a 121 as well, and I find that I don't need any room ambience, however it really does depend on the situation. I've had great results from sticking a 414 TL-II like 4 feet back and blending them all together before the signal goes to tape, remember the best EQ is natural phase EQ.

Unknown soldier · 13th February 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Ol' Betsey
DON'T under-estimate the effect the room has on the sound EVEN when close micing though.
R. [/B]

This is an interesting subject......I recently put my 4X12 into the kitchen to see what it sounded like. Close micing with a Senn 421 about 6 inches from the grill. Sounds different than the living room, also miced 6 inches.....

So what this says is that cardiod mics pic up ambience even if they are very close to the source. I'm sure this gets complex and could be explained further by an acoustics expert...anyone?

DirkB · 13th February 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Unknown soldier
This is an interesting subject......I recently put my 4X12 into the kitchen to see what it sounded like. Close micing with a Senn 421 about 6 inches from the grill. Sounds different than the living room, also miced 6 inches.....

So what this says is that cardiod mics pic up ambience even if they are very close to the source. I'm sure this gets complex and could be explained further by an acoustics expert...anyone?

Well, you always have the reflections from the floor for example, which may only be 15-20" away from the speaker. If you're micing from 6" then these floor reflections definitely will be pickep up by the mic...

Greetings,
Dirk

cjogo · 13th February 2005

Depends on the amp size >>but generally SM58 or 609 on the speaker....and a Rode tube in a 5X9 sound baffle ~~ about 6-8 ft out and 2 ft above the cabinet

.CRYSTAL STUDIOS

Norman Lindsey · 13th February 2005

Quote:

For really heavy guitars = bone dry. Even DI'ed.

yes i agree there.less room always seems better if the guitars don't have that much space to them.
it's always a bad day when you can't remove the room from a track and you really need to.

i like a good '57 up close , run to the control room , if it don't sound good run back to the cab and just move it a few inches then run back to the control room while the dude's still playing and listen carefully over the monitors. if it ain't right then , then **** with the amp. if it ain't right then , then play the axe yourself and show the dude what to do.
it's always better to go down slightly brighter ( just a bit ) usually this gets cranked in at mixing anyway.like an 8k-12k.
this also makes the guitar track a bit quieter if you need to roll it off .

cjogo · 13th February 2005

We have good wireless set of phones > the X DREAM--fairly tight/isolated. Can find the sweet spot whilst moving the mics 'round...without returning to the board each time

Norman Lindsey · 13th February 2005

Quote:

We have good wireless set of phones > the X DREAM--fairly tight/isolated. Can find the sweet spot whilst moving the mics 'round...without returning to the board each time

i never trust that sorry. tutt
you still 'feel' rumble and lower frequencies .it doesn't give you a true indication just another luxury to cut some corners.
If you have great monitors , use 'em.
Micing the guitar cab is one of those crucial times .too much 'squelch' or 'grunt' can completely ruin my day if it can't be removed satisfactorily.

antti · 13th February 2005

Depends on style. When working in a studio with nice room I tend to put 2 close mics, amb mic and take di as well(after gtr or pedal). Then I'll mix between the 4 (using 1-4 sources) to
get a sound. I always buss them to 1 track. In my little 'studio' (which used
to be a commercial mastering room) I only put one or two mics (plus di sometimes) and do the same thing. My room is quite dead. Sometimes I only use amb mic if the song/arrangement/style needs it. Once I recorded a guitar part using 3 Marshall stacks (all at 11) and close-miked them with 57s on each and used a blumlein pair of ribbons for room. That went to 2 tracks. Sounded cool. It depends..

cjogo · 13th February 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by Norman Lindsey
i never trust that sorry. tutt
you still 'feel' rumble and lower frequencies .it doesn't give you a true indication just another luxury to cut some corners.
If you have great monitors , use 'em.
Micing the guitar cab is one of those crucial times .too much 'squelch' or 'grunt' can completely ruin my day if it can't be removed satisfactorily.

we don't have that luxury >> the studio/control room is the "all in one"--the amp is only 10 feet from the board.>> .so we are always in the ~headphone mode~ when the record light is on ~~ we also record at very low volumes {the phones are louder then the amp-HA} = our house amp in is Blues Junior and a small Crate . Hey, This is a respectable neighborhood .....

Andy Sneap · 13th February 2005

I never mic the room, just a 57 close in everytime. I have stopped building boxes, gobo's etc round the cabs though, as I was tending to hear close reflections (even when using a foam screen in front) so I just go with a deadish room now.

Norman Lindsey · 14th February 2005

Quote:

we don't have that luxury >> the studio/control room is the "all in one"--the amp is only 10 feet from the board.>> .so we are always in the ~headphone mode~ when the record light is on ~~ we also record at very low volumes {the phones are louder then the amp-HA} = our house amp in is Blues Junior and a small Crate . Hey, This is a respectable neighborhood .....

heya i understand.good move.clean floors

Quote:

I never mic the room, just a 57 close in everytime. I have stopped building boxes, gobo's etc round the cabs though, as I was tending to hear close reflections (even when using a foam screen in front) so I just go with a deadish room now

Yah , small reflections and peaks can be really irritating especially when layering multiples.
It's ok for room in spacey music ( holes in the soundscape )
otherwise you can end up with mush

cebolao · 23rd February 2005

many people here use more than 1 mic i see.

of course we get richer sound when we mix more microphones. but we have the delay and phase problems.

yesterday i recorded distorted guitar. i put sm57 close to the amp and brauner phantom-c in a small distance. the phasey effect was terrible. i moved the brauner many times, i even asked the guitarist to move there and back while i was listening to it and i COULD NOT find a place where there was absolutely NO phasing effect.

i ended up finding a place where the phasey effect was audible in high frequencies and i filtered everything above low middle from the brauner, so i got only the lows from it (that's what i needed to make the sound bigger and more fat), and the phasey frequencies were cut.

but what if i needed those high frequencies? how do you deal with this problem? is it possible to find an "ideal" place? or there is always some phasey effect taht you accept and treat it as a part of guitar sound?

bloodstone · 23rd February 2005

Sometimes no room, sometimes lots of room, sometimes all room. Whatever sounds best. On surf instrumentals, I have used all room/no close mic to great effect.

Ol' Betsey · 23rd February 2005

Quote:

Originally posted by cebolao
many people here use more than 1 mic i see...

You can always try one of these:

http://www.mercenary.com/litlabibpanp.html

R.

pgk · 23rd February 2005

as much room as i can get away with depending on what the song and part calls for. and more than that if i can get away with it! i live for room sounds. i love it when a guitar player hits a chord and the snares rattle. especially when i'm doing trad blues albums. my ideal tone is like those early 50's BB King RPM and Modern recordings; almost all of his guitar tone is the bleed from the vocal mic. he sings, you can hear the fills just perfect. then when he solos he backs away from the vocal mic and BAM, the tone gets enveloped in the room and there's the greatest guitar tone i've ever heard. the Sun Records Howlin' Wolf recordings with Pat Hare and Wille Johnson are also on my Mount Rushmore of Tone as well. just killer guitar tone.

11th February 2005	#1
fuzzmike Gear interested Joined: Dec 2004 Posts: 23 Thread Starter	When you are recording guitars, how much room are you micing? When you are recording guitars, how much room do you use? Do you set up a room mic, deep in the room? Do you set up a mic close to the cab set to omni or 8? Do you just fake it with outboard reverb?

11th February 2005	#2
DirkB Lives for gear Joined: Jul 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,722	El. guitar always close, SM57 against the grill and R-121 about 5" from grill. Of course since the R121 is figure of 8 some space is captured, but since the amps are usually LOUD it's very dry, not alot of room. One thing: I'm mostly (95%) of the time recording heavy guitars. When I need something cleaner, often some sort of analog delay pedal is added if we want some depth... Greetings, Dirk __________________ -progress takes away what forever took to find- Dave Matthews

11th February 2005	#3
Ol' Betsey Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2002 Location: London Posts: 2,035 1 Review written	Hi Fuzz, Depends on what type of sounds I'm recording but like Dirk, I'm usually right up on the speaker unless I'm using the room for effect. DON'T under-estimate the effect the room has on the sound EVEN when close micing though. If I'm in a less-than-ideal space I really try to keep the sound as dry as possible (go-bo's etc.). The 121 is another favourite of mine and because of the Fig 8 I pretty much always line something up behind the mic. R. __________________ The Speaker Snuggy is specifically designed to compensate for the additive effect of using plugins which literally remove the blanket from your speakers. These plugins can sound good when solo'd, but when used across dozens of tracks they can leave your speakers sounding cold and insecure. (Casey / Bricasti) When I haven't any blue I use red. (Pablo Picasso) Ol' Betsey Satan - The Original Flower Shop 8 track - "She fought long and she fought hard..."

11th February 2005	#5
Drumsound Lives for gear Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Bloomington Il Posts: 5,185	I prefer a close mic. I feel timing is usually better, because the player is reacting to the other tracks/players and I'm not introducing the slight delay from the amp sound getting to the mic. Sometimes I combine a close and a far. There are also times where the effect of distance is of crucial importance. I was going for a Jimmy Vaughn pointy Tele thing recently. The mic was about eight feet or so back and the room was very lively and it sounded great. __________________ Tony Oxide Lounge Recording See the Oxide Lounge! Follow me on TWITTER! WWJMD? Come see me on the Tape Op boards! It's only inches on the reel to reel

12th February 2005	#10
PaRaNoId Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 550	arrgghh I mic the grille with a dynamic, a LDC or MDC 2 feet away from the amp, and an SDC at least 6 feet way pointed away from the amp. I then blend and pan to taste. I always time-align the 2ft mic with the close-in one, but i never time-align the distant/room mic. BTW i'm big on using natural revreb on most instruments... __________________ It's not the tools, it's the talent... Clients include- GIN BLOSSOMS, SOCIAL DISTORTION, HOT HOT HEAT, CIRCA SURVIVE, SILVER SUN PICKUPS, PHOENIX, DIRTY HEADS, ROGER CLYNE AND THE PACEMAKERS, BUSTICLES, ABOVE THE LOVE...

11th February 2005	#4
Lee Knight Gear addict Joined: Jul 2004 Location: Encinitas, CA Posts: 351	My room is 12'x20'. Combi control/recording room. Last night I got a sound very much like Richie Blockmore's on Machine Head. I put a Senn 609 3" off the grill, angled to be on axis with the cone halfway between the edge and the center of the speaker. Then... 17' away I pointed a C1 away from the amp into the opposing wall. Panned them -75 and +75. Awesome...

11th February 2005	#6
Jules Gearslutz.com admin Joined: Apr 2002 Location: A Yank in London, UK Posts: 17,805 1 Review written	Very little

11th February 2005	#7
maskedman72 Lives for gear Joined: Apr 2004 Location: michigan Posts: 1,456	none.......ever. (i record mostly metal/death metal styles)

12th February 2005	#9
Joba Gear Head Joined: Nov 2003 Location: Europe Posts: 70	Usually one or two close mics and one 2-3m out. The room mic can be a condenser in cardioid or omni. I often delay the room mic and use that instead of a delay on the close mic.

12th February 2005	#11
Knastratt Lives for gear Joined: Feb 2004 Location: Karlstad, Sweden Posts: 785	If the room sounds excellent - a lot. Stereo ambience is gold worth in the mix. But if the ambience sucks - AltiVerb is a good option. For really heavy guitars = bone dry. Even DI'ed. __________________ Pär Hällquist mixerized.com studio __________________ Firmly stuck between Fletcher-Munson and Dunning-Kruger

12th February 2005	#12
Lord Fear Gear maniac Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 269	I usually use a 57 and a 121 as well, and I find that I don't need any room ambience, however it really does depend on the situation. I've had great results from sticking a 414 TL-II like 4 feet back and blending them all together before the signal goes to tape, remember the best EQ is natural phase EQ.

13th February 2005	#15
cjogo Lives for gear Joined: Dec 2002 Location: CARMEL Posts: 1,547	Depends on the amp size >>but generally SM58 or 609 on the speaker....and a Rode tube in a 5X9 sound baffle ~~ about 6-8 ft out and 2 ft above the cabinet .CRYSTAL STUDIOS

13th February 2005	#19
antti Gear addict Joined: Feb 2005 Location: From North Pole to the Amazonas via Londonistan Posts: 310	Depends on style. When working in a studio with nice room I tend to put 2 close mics, amb mic and take di as well(after gtr or pedal). Then I'll mix between the 4 (using 1-4 sources) to get a sound. I always buss them to 1 track. In my little 'studio' (which used to be a commercial mastering room) I only put one or two mics (plus di sometimes) and do the same thing. My room is quite dead. Sometimes I only use amb mic if the song/arrangement/style needs it. Once I recorded a guitar part using 3 Marshall stacks (all at 11) and close-miked them with 57s on each and used a blumlein pair of ribbons for room. That went to 2 tracks. Sounded cool. It depends..

13th February 2005	#21
Andy Sneap Gear nut Joined: Jun 2002 Location: Derbyshire Posts: 131	I never mic the room, just a 57 close in everytime. I have stopped building boxes, gobo's etc round the cabs though, as I was tending to hear close reflections (even when using a foam screen in front) so I just go with a deadish room now.

23rd February 2005	#23
cebolao Lives for gear Joined: May 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 529	many people here use more than 1 mic i see. of course we get richer sound when we mix more microphones. but we have the delay and phase problems. yesterday i recorded distorted guitar. i put sm57 close to the amp and brauner phantom-c in a small distance. the phasey effect was terrible. i moved the brauner many times, i even asked the guitarist to move there and back while i was listening to it and i COULD NOT find a place where there was absolutely NO phasing effect. i ended up finding a place where the phasey effect was audible in high frequencies and i filtered everything above low middle from the brauner, so i got only the lows from it (that's what i needed to make the sound bigger and more fat), and the phasey frequencies were cut. but what if i needed those high frequencies? how do you deal with this problem? is it possible to find an "ideal" place? or there is always some phasey effect taht you accept and treat it as a part of guitar sound?

23rd February 2005	#24
bloodstone Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2003 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 657	It depends Sometimes no room, sometimes lots of room, sometimes all room. Whatever sounds best. On surf instrumentals, I have used all room/no close mic to great effect.

23rd February 2005	#26
pgk Gear nut Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 112	as much room as i can get away with depending on what the song and part calls for. and more than that if i can get away with it! i live for room sounds. i love it when a guitar player hits a chord and the snares rattle. especially when i'm doing trad blues albums. my ideal tone is like those early 50's BB King RPM and Modern recordings; almost all of his guitar tone is the bleed from the vocal mic. he sings, you can hear the fills just perfect. then when he solos he backs away from the vocal mic and BAM, the tone gets enveloped in the room and there's the greatest guitar tone i've ever heard. the Sun Records Howlin' Wolf recordings with Pat Hare and Wille Johnson are also on my Mount Rushmore of Tone as well. just killer guitar tone.

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