I had a dream

[jindrich]

Couldn't sleep the other day. After 2 hours hanging around the house, thought a little bit of music could help me get some sleep. Slipped Massive Attack's Mezzanine on the CD player and reached to the great AKG K501 phones.

Dived into Mezzanine's dark atmospheres, started to think about analog vs digital, latencies, mixers, top studios demise, sound quality, and how on current recording procedures, trends for best quality results dictate going directly from just outboard to DAW.
Very well. But regarding the latter, in REAL WORKING studio situations I cannot but still see the need of a good mixer, as you always are in the need to manage not only input tracks and returns -doable ITB, but those thousand synths, FXs, DIs, CDs, master recorders.. etc, not to mention the critical monitoring tasks.
Right now, good sounding desks have dissapeared -out of the big Jumbo SSL/Neve kind, but those are just too costly for smaller facilities or producer owned studios.

So I thought, WHAT IF someone could bring together into one developing team:

-George Massenburg
-the Sony's (audio desmantled division) engineers that brought the Oxford and the dmx-r100
-the Yamaha coporation (as manufacturer)

to build a definitive, great sounding and cost effective digital desk?


Something like:

-Features mostly just like those on the Yamaha DM-2000: 96 ch, up to 24@96khz
-GUI and form/shape like the DMX-R100, which I find brilliant. Only slightly bigger in size, to acomodate 8 character scribble script per channel and bigger retro-illumninated buttons (bigger size is good for image too ;-)
-Massenburg/Oxford Dyn and EQ -PER CHANNEL. Also his input to tweak the board to perfection (mix bus, latencies, automation..)
-Maybe just 24 A/Ds, like on the yamaha, and ability to incorporate up to 96 I/O via card interfaces (including MADI as option)
-control surface should easily drive DAWs too (ptools, logic, nuendo)

-Price around 30-40k??

Would that be doable?
I think if done right, not only would be a really great -definitive?- product, but could sell very well because it will adress both the neccesities of small facilities and producer owned studios, and will be perfect for Brodcast, Post and fixed installations as all of them need instant recall too.


Did i dream too much?

[natpub]

, you might ask George, but as I recall, he is not yet convinced that any digital device can do proper compression.

Quite frankly, I would rather he start putting his analog desk out again---if I remember, he made, hmm...2?

ask him sometime about what a "real" pan pot is--be prepared for a long talk:P

[MIKEHARRIS]

the NIH syndrome..(not invented here) would restrict co operation.. maybe convincing Yamaha they're doing something wrong might be the hardest thing as they dont think they are.

[natpub]

Originally posted by MIKEHARRIS
the NIH syndrome..(not invented here) would restrict co operation.. maybe convincing Yamaha they're doing something wrong might be the hardest thing as they dont think they are.

yeah, and now they own Nuendo

Im waiting for things to go to hell :-(

BUT, If you wanna dream, how bout this:

Practially empty and acoustically flat environment, nearly devoid of reflective surfaces. A single comfy chair, floating in a darkened room. A pair of holographic control gloves. A pair of GUI goggles to check controls when desired. A total surround system wedged deep within any walls. All controls are by hand gesture using the gloves. All controls are digital, but all actual modules are analog and outside the room. Everything is mixed to half-inch tape and DSD simultaniously.

I really dont think this is far away.

[jindrich]

massenburg analog desk..,
nice, but analog well done costs a Fortune, and that's where digital would come in handy. If i'm not mistaken, George had an Oxford and was very happy with it with (until Sony dropped it), and sounded great -with sony dynamics.

mike,
yamaha is not doing bad, just that any product can always be improved (like O2R>>DM2000).
And Yamaha has both the manufacturing and Marketing power to put such a thing on the market, and make a profit with it.

I keep on dreaming. What about a 24ch of remote controlled masseburg pres for 20k?

[jindrich]

Originally posted by natpub
Practially empty and acoustically flat environment, nearly devoid of reflective surfaces. A single comfy chair, floating in a darkened room. A pair of holographic control gloves. A pair of GUI goggles to check controls when desired. A total surround system wedged deep within any walls. All controls are by hand gesture using the gloves. All controls are digital, but all actual modules are analog and outside the room. Everything is mixed to half-inch tape and DSD simultaniously.

I really dont think this is far away.

have you ever been IN a studio? with musicians, guitars, mics, pedals, girlfriends, bottles all over...

I'm proposing a working tool, not a gadget for individual virtual reality inmersion

[Fletcher]

Originally posted by jindrich
So I thought, WHAT IF someone could bring together into one developing team:

This very thing was discussed with a non-Yomama manufacturer... slightly different design team but along very similar lines. The estimates for the design was about 30 months at about $60,000 USD per month... plus lunches and travel, etc... call it a cool million.

The net result could indeed be a pretty damn ultimate sounding digital desk that would work well for "analog minds" as well as do a whole boatload more than any other digital desk.

The limited "market research" that was done had the product selling about 40 units in the first year, 80 units in the next year and about 200 in the 3rd followed by the next "latest and greatest" version of that unit which would supplant the earlier version.

Retailing at about $40k per unit it looked like it would indeed be worth the design budget [if the project came to fruition... which is not always guaranteed]... then the cost of manufacturing, marketing, etc. would be covered... the idea went through several stages and was eventually shelved.

However... if you have the intial design budget I can re-assemble the team that could be assembled to accomplish this task. I already know how to do "independent assembly" [well not how to do it, but how to get it done], and how to market it... so if you have the seed capital... LET'S ROCK!!!!!!

[massimo]

My dream of a digital mixer is quite different from yours.

I love using a mixer for mixing, I do not use it for tracking. I hate using computers for music. I'd like to upgrade from my Yamaha 03R, which has served me well as a digital-through box, but hate to be forced to buy unnecessary things like tons of average converters and micpres that are always built in.
I would like a digital/through-only mixer. Like if - say- Yamaha did their DM1000 without throwing in there dozens of mic-pres or a/d converters that noone uses.
Many of us go outboard micpre to outboard converter into the recording medium of choice (mine is a Fostex d2424). No mixer needed for tracking.

Then you go digital out of the recorder. Now you do want a mixer that doesn't cut any corners in terms of digital connectivity, use here part of what you have saved doing without an analog front end. All formats built in.

You love to use outboard analog processing, don't you? No attempt to put any eq or dynamics or effects inboard the mixer. Use your existing gear. Cut production expenses also here, and give us the best and widest possible selection of send-return connections, digital and analog. Put the sole very best A/D and D/A converters HERE.
Then great motorized faders, a choice of digital outputs, memory slots for mix scenes and flexible routing capabilities, features which are already ubiquitous even in low-cost boxes.
Maybe it is philosophically the digital equivalent of the Speck Lilo, as far as I understand
any opinions?
ciao
Massimo

[jindrich]

wow Fletcher, that's very interesting.

When people who never met, coming from different continents and different roots, end up with the same idea, that can only mean that there's really a latent demand for a product that the current market doesn't offer.

Of course, the biggest problem in developing such a product would be real customer demand -once it's finally finished.
Widening the customer target it's the best bet to at least be able to recoup all general R&D costs in sales, if the product is not enourmously sucessful.


Giving the current state of the music recording business, seems that surviving studios will be just a few top dollar 9J/88R rooms for the elite, plus small but good Producer owned studios mostly, along with the odd "multi-flightcased-box/es" to be rented, that will turn any Malibu residence into a recording space.

It's for those last two categories, that a kickass, smart, ergonomically designed, great sounding and cost effective digital board would appeal.
If well executed, the Post, Broadcast and Live industry can be interested too.

Actually, i think SSL has smelled the market and thus released the AWS900.
Digi put the ICON out. But both have some issues. The AWS900 has only 24 channels and cannot be reset in a second. The ICON is too tied to TDM and cannot operate alone (actually is only a mouse ;-). Both are too expensive.



I'm surprised that if design costs were only around 1 million, as you mention, no corporation was interested, when there are so many millions wasted on stupid ".com" projects. I think a well and seriously written Business Plan would open some doors.

Unfortunately, last time i checked, didn't have 1 million around ;-), but would surely be interested in buying such a board.

Hey, have you tried contacting... Steve Ballmer? he built a recstudio with a 9000J INTO his private boat. wich means he has both, lotsa money and interest in music. And this projected mixer would be perfect for him (great sound, 1 operator does all and total recall)

Is it possible to know WHO was behind this project you mention? It's really great that, for a change, a product is developed from its very ground users (a la Massenburg), instead of a manufacturing company imposing their vision.


Really hope this board sees the light some day.

edit: hey can we make this thread a suggestion board for gearsltuzers, how/what should a digital board like that REALISTICALLY have?
I can put all that on an Excel sheet.

[natpub]

Originally posted by jindrich
have you ever been IN a studio? with musicians, guitars, mics, pedals, girlfriends, bottles all over...

I'm proposing a working tool, not a gadget for individual virtual reality inmersion

it would be for mixing, and was intended to be a musing and amusing


relax man

[Fletcher]

Following up on something like this is a little more than a fulltime job... writing the business plan for something like this is also a little more than a fulltime job. I have one full, and two part time jobs at the moment plus the occassional gig here and there... in other words, my plate is kinda full.

A company had an interest in this project and contacted me about perhaps quarterbacking the project. I looked at the project, called a few friends, did a preliminary outline of what I thought would need to happen, or should happen... submitted my recommendation for their review... from there, it was up to the company to proceed or not proceed [they seem to have chosen the latter].

Suffice it to say that I have a little less than zero interest in starting a console manufacturing company though I will be happy to work in a consulting capacity to any console manufacturing company that would like to explore this idea.

For an established manufacturing concern a project like this would require that a separate team be hired and about $2.5M be allocated to the project... for a "start up" it would take a little over $3M to get something like this off the ground.

The danger would be that technology might pass this by before the product is released and the investment capital lost. The larger danger is that the company that creates this beast will have extreme competition from other firms with a similar product [already in development]... in other words, it's an exceptionally risky investment for anyone trying to start something like this... most folk shy away from exceptionally risky investments.

While there are certainly a whole bunch of people to whom $3M USD is a piss hole in the snow... I don't happen to be on a 'home phone number' basis with any of them... if you are, then give them a call and let's get this thing rolling.

Peace.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by jindrich

-Price around 30-40k??


Did i dream too much?

First of all, no one has that kinda dought to blow on a digital console which in a few years will be worth a fifth of that.

Especially when good used analog consoles are around.

The mid price market is all but dead.

Even in the days before cost effective digital it was a black hole for console makers and wannabe console buyers.

Did you dream too much?

Yeah i would say so.

[jindrich]

yeah Fletcher you're right on many of your comments.

Developing and building a mixer like that, would be quite risky giving the current path of technology obsolescence. Also, it has to be considered that competition might be developing a similar or better product.

Still think current offerings dont fill the gap, and that the product might succeed. If only it key focus on

-1) Obsolescence
-2) Features and NAME (status)
-3) PRICE

but above all, this one:
it's not bulding a digital mixer, but a Top Sounding and very Flexible console -to a moderate price, that... happens to be digital (because it's cheaper and more versatile than analog, and it CAN sound good if done right).



Regarding obsolescence, the only way reduce it to its smallest figure is to build the mixer in a modular configuration, like 4 components: controller, processors, I/O and software. You shouldn't need to change the micpres, converters or controller just to gain some functionality. Replace only what's needed, not everything.
Designed to last as much as possible. Anyhow, the controller, Pres and AES/MADI I/O could see 5 generations of the inners.
Also, constant updates and new features shouldn't be the ball of the game here. The Neve 80 series boards have hardly changed in 30 years, still they're very appreciated for what they are.


Regarding points 2 and 3, that's why I put the names of Massenburg and Yamaha on the table. Massenburg has both the name and reputation as well as the skills to build a killer product. On the other hand, Yamaha has the experience, manufacturing resources and marketing power to make the product a success, and keep it to a LOW PRICE.

It could be done for under 30k, or even less, like the dmx-r100 and the DM-2000


The Yamaha evolution:

DMP7 >> DMC1000 >> 02R >> DM-2000 >>>>>>>>> Massenburg-D console, putting the music first.