Guitar rigs for the ultimate Modern Rock sound?

[James Lugo]

I'm wondering what you guys are using as far as amps, guitars, pick ups and mics to get the killer heavy tones. I have a Marshall JCM2000 DSL 100, Boogie Triple Reftifier and a Marshall 300 watt straight cab. I have a stock Les Paul Standered and a modded paul with a Duncan JB in the rear - amoung about 10 other guiatrs. I've been micing with 57's on and off axis using a 1073, TG Channel, BA 312 and a Trident S20.

The sounds are good but I feel it could be better. I can't seem to get condesor mics to really work for me, I think it's lack of expirience with them on cabs.

Does anyone know the guitar set up on the new Avril Laviegn (sp?) tune Happy Ending. I love that tone. Or the rig on Perfect Circles' Judas!

The Boogie is a new purchase and I'm having problems getting it work for me personally, there's something unmusical soudning about it but I know it has a place in the studio.

We've been tracking a shread band ala Malsmsteen this week, so the studio has been loaded with a s**t load of amps and guitars, it has kind of inspired me. We tracked an Engl amp, it sounded good, also a Genz Benz amp which was way to buzzy sounding for me.

I know this is a strange thread but I'm really looking for something to help spark my next move forward.

[drew]

A Royer 121 with that 57 will open up new tones for sure.

[Panopticon]

I'm using really similar stuff: TSL100, Triple Rec, a couple 1960's loaded with different speakers, and SM57's to Great River pre's. I'm usually pleased with everything, but a while back I got to use a Soldano SLO 100 (really kick-ass) and a Diezel VH4 (uber kick-ass). That made for a good time.

[84K]

The Perfect Circle tone in that song sounds kind of 80s... The Jack the bass Jack the Treble and cut out a lot of mids. Then adjust the Presence to taste.

The best amps for those tones (and all heavy modern rock tones) are: Deizel VH4S(channel 3 and 4), Bogner Ecstacy 101b, or a Diezel Herbert (Channel 3). The amps you have should do the job, so I wouldn't go off and spend all that money.... that is just the "In a Perfect World" setup.

First thing I would do is get a 2X12 by THD with their special custom treated speakers, and the small rear port(about $600). That way, you don't have to tax the mic input as much and you still acheive your tonal needs. Good Luck!!!

[luap]

Well I'm using a USA strat with a Kinman bridge pickup to a Cornford Harlequin amp. SMOOOOTH.

[paulbystereo]

As far as mics go, you can't go wrong with a 57 and R121 combo through a pair of Neves or Chandler TGs.

I've been feeling lately that the guitar and amp are more important than the mic and pre combo. Along with the amps you have, and the Bogner and Deizel, you should check out the VHT stuff. I've really liked those amps for the modern rock sound.

One more thing, you should definitely try getting your hands on the VHT fatbottom cab or the Mesa recto cab. I always find the Marshall 300 watt cab way too sizzly for me with a loose bottom end. I think the VHT and Mesa cabs (VHT being my preference) would be better for the modern rock sound.

[drew]

The Randall MTS stuff is an affordable way to get a lot of these tones. Definitely worth looking into. Michael Wagener turned me on to it.

[wwittman]

For "modern" rock sounds, I find the Triple Rectifier seems to be the standard.

I actually don't like the Mesa guitar cabs though, they sound boxy to me.
I much prefer the Mesa head through a Marshall or Hiwatt 4x12 instead.
And i mic it with a Gefell UM70 or a Neumann U-87 right up close on one speaker... picking the best sounding speaker by listening to each.

Which condensers have you tried and "not liked"?

[James Lugo]

Man, thanks for all the input. Gregg Sartiano and I are going down to this high end amp joint in Orange County this week and check out some amps.

[Panopticon]

Originally posted by wwittman

I actually don't like the Mesa guitar cabs though, they sound boxy to me.
I much prefer the Mesa head through a Marshall or Hiwatt 4x12 instead.

I'd have to agree with this. The cab makes a huge difference in overall sound, and the Mesa cabs have always sounded muddy to me. I usually go with Marshalls, but here again speaker selection makes such a noticeable difference that it can't be overlooked. It would be great to have the money and space for 10 cabs loaded with all the good options...

[biggator6]

PRS guitars are pretty popular for modern rock... a TON of those bands are PRS->Triple Recto for their rigs.

I have a PRS and an old Rivera TBR-1SL which does the modern rock sound pretty damn well (and a lot of other things, too)..

I don't have a Royer (yet) but a '57 up close and a condenser about 4-5' back does it for me... strangely, I love the original AKG C3000 for guitar cabs... it's so harsh and nasal that it just works (hmm... like a 57?)
"-)

[Faderjockey]

As a gtr player I can not believe I'm seeing people talk about Randall again.....Man I hated that stuff when it was out. Now because MW used it we're all going to like it again...Yuck! The Randall cabs are the worst...We go round and round with mics and pres and cables blah blah...on this forum. But we are going to use great mics and pres to record Randall.....?

It's funny I've heard worse then Randall...It just always sucks to me....

I like old tube amps...Marshall (New marshalls blow...I hate PC boards in my amps), Echelon (barber electronics)- Okay this is new but hey!! Point to point wiring sounds awesome, fender, Dumble..Sometimes Soldano...

Always Barber Electronic pedals....

Royer, U195....Really I can get most mics to work....But 57 is something I just got real tired of.....maybe I'm the only one on here that doesn't want to copy people...I like finding my on sounds....hmmm..Sort of like the mackie Adat days to me....Everyone was running that way..We kept tape as long as we could then went to DA38 and pro tools just because every one else went Adat...Glad I didn't follow then...Adats blow..even more then Randall's.

Not saying anything negative about MW by the way. I love him...grew up on all the stuff he did.....Just thought hearing about Randall was funny. Randall reminds me of Def Lep, Whitesnake, 80's(Which I come from by the way maybe that's why it's funny to me)...Good for them if it works...Can't wait to here the Kings X stuff I'm sure it will be awesome.

[juniorhifikit]

I believe the Randall the MW refers to has nothing to do with any of their past or recent past amps.

FWIW, I've rewired several amps, removing the PC board and using point-to-point wiring. Not a world of difference. The old Marshalls with PC boards have HUGE foil traces that are far apart (no capacitance) and sound damn good to me. Although, each one sounds different than the next - part tolerances and human error!

[DirkB]

Well, I record quite a lot of heavy dirt guitar and what has been the absolute joy, was the last album I did:

Don't know what guitar was used
amp: ENGL SE, it's the be all - end all of ENGL tops, don't know if it's even available in the US already, but I haven't heard much better. It has a lot of options and excells at both clean and dirt/crunch sounds.
ENGL 4x12 cab with vintage speakers (forgot the type)
Combo of SM57 through IBP and R-121, both into Chandler TG-2 preamp...



Greetings,
Dirk

[lowswing]

Using power soak was the best thing that got me closer to the ultimate heavy guitar sound.
now i'm managed to get a very distorted "loud" sound without "overdrivring" the room which use to make my distotion recording a bit muddy .

[drew]

Originally posted by Faderjockey
\
It's funny I've heard worse then Randall...It just always sucks to me....

you might want to make sure you've actually heard what you are saying sucks Ronni. The MTS stuff is designed by Bruce Egnater and is pretty good.

http://www.egnater.com/index2.htm

My guitar rig of the last two years has been a 50/50 split between an EL34 loaded Mesa Dual Rectifier Rack into a cabinet and a Fender Prosonic Combo running Class A.
2 x SM57's on the best speaker of each amp and a condensor further back in the room.
Sounds great, although with all guitar sounds sometimes it sounds better than others.

I've been tracking a bit with a POD PRO XT lately- sounds great. The A/B tests I've done with the tube amps is pretty astounding really.

[BattleAngel]

James,

The guitar path for A Perfect Circle's Judith is as follows:

1) Les Paul Classic outfitted with Tom Anderson H3+ pickups. These are super, super high output pickups with a very balanced response. Great pickups in a great guitar is key, and that's a pretty great combination right there. I'm actually planning on getting a Class 5 or gary rossington Les Paul and putting either Mastertone (active, but outclasses EMG) or Anderson H3+ in it.
2) Marshall JMP head modded by Dave Friedman of rack systems. Basically, he took the preamp from a Naylor Super Drive 60 (I have a duel drive that is totally 'the shit' for this kind of sound, though I'm thinking of selling it because I live in NYC and can get by w/ just my 8 watt Carr) and wired it into the power section of a 100 Watt marshall.
3) 2 VHT 4x12 cabs, I believe he mic'd the bottom cab's speakers, which I believe were the vintage 30 variety, as opposed to the new eminence speakers VHT had designed for them.

I imagine that a Les Paul w/ great pickups into either a Naylor 60 or a VHT Deliverance (have you heard about these? They look like they were born for this role) into a 4x12 (bogner, egnater, diezel, or VHT are the 'top dog' cabinets for heavy rock) will get you the ultimate Modern Rock sound.

The THD Flexi 50 is also worth a look, too.

[Faderjockey]

Guess I'm just use to hearing the old stuff...Didn't know Randall was doing anything new. Besides those little pop in modules I saw in GC mag.

Power soaks help...We use the Weber boxes on Marshall Pexi alot....They do help get the tube warmth happening.

Hey Drew checked out the link...
If you ever get one let me know I'd like to play through it.

Here is one for you..

http://barberelectronics.com/echelon.htm

[drew]

you're welcome anytime. I've got 10 of the 14 modules so you can try a bunch of them. PM me and we'll set it up.

[DirkB]

Originally posted by BattleAngel
James,

The guitar path for A Perfect Circle's Judith is as follows:

1) Les Paul Classic outfitted with Tom Anderson H3+ pickups. These are super, super high output pickups with a very balanced response. Great pickups in a great guitar is key, and that's a pretty great combination right there. I'm actually planning on getting a Class 5 or gary rossington Les Paul and putting either Mastertone (active, but outclasses EMG) or Anderson H3+ in it.
2) Marshall JMP head modded by Dave Friedman of rack systems. Basically, he took the preamp from a Naylor Super Drive 60 (I have a duel drive that is totally 'the shit' for this kind of sound, though I'm thinking of selling it because I live in NYC and can get by w/ just my 8 watt Carr) and wired it into the power section of a 100 Watt marshall.
3) 2 VHT 4x12 cabs, I believe he mic'd the bottom cab's speakers, which I believe were the vintage 30 variety, as opposed to the new eminence speakers VHT had designed for them.

I imagine that a Les Paul w/ great pickups into either a Naylor 60 or a VHT Deliverance (have you heard about these? They look like they were born for this role) into a 4x12 (bogner, egnater, diezel, or VHT are the 'top dog' cabinets for heavy rock) will get you the ultimate Modern Rock sound.

The THD Flexi 50 is also worth a look, too.

for the Naylor!

A friend brought it into the studio a couple months ago (don't know what type) and it basiccaly had two nobs on it and sounded HUGE. Very creamy, midrange tube tone and very complementary to the ENGL SE which is a little more deeper and goes higher...

Greetings,
Dirk

[eberrong]

I think you have the right equipment. There are lots of modern rock records made with the gear you've quoted. This is a farily common chain...

Les Paul-->Mesa Dual Rectifier-->Mesa Rectifier 4x12 (Vintage 30's)-->SM57-->Neve 1073

Mesa Boogie Rectifier amps are hard to get good settings. You really have to spend some time tweaking the settings. Also the triple rectifier (150W) is going to have to be extremely loud to get the power tube distortion happening.

Also try mixing the Marshall and Mesa sounds together. Some people are using splitters and running 2-3 amps at a time.

[James Lugo]

Thanks everyone! I'm really pumped.

BattleAngel,
Great insight, tomorrow I'm going amp shopping with a buddy. Checking out the Soldano and Bogner. I demoed all the Bogner heads a few months ago and wasn't really into it but maybe I need to revisit the Bogner action.

I have a Paul with Duncan JB's and one stock. I'll check out the Tom Anderson pick ups.

We used a friends Royer 121 this weekend on guitars and it really sounded great...

[wwittman]

one more thing, in MY experience you need to be loud to sound loud.

Power soaks are a compromise... the sound is as much about speakers moving air and distorting as it is about amp distortion.

[mwagener]

Originally posted by wwittman
one more thing, in MY experience you need to be loud to sound loud.

Power soaks are a compromise... the sound is as much about speakers moving air and distorting as it is about amp distortion.

AMEN!!!

[the1Hub]

Some great advise on this thread.
http://marsh.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/287/?SQ=db8015ba7f08acfa06716f53477847e3

[Faderjockey]

Power soaks are a compromise... the sound is as much about speakers moving air and distorting as it is about amp distortion.

Yes...But when you have say a 100 watt Plexi and you have a 4x12 with 35 watt vintage green backs...It safer to use that weber box to pull so more ass out of the head....

But I'm not saying it's not loud....It's very loud! but it helps make the head think it's even louder.

[neve1073]

Originally posted by eberrong
I think you have the right equipment. There are lots of modern rock records made with the gear you've quoted. This is a farily common chain...

Les Paul-->Mesa Dual Rectifier-->Mesa Rectifier 4x12 (Vintage 30's)-->SM57-->Neve 1073

Mesa Boogie Rectifier amps are hard to get good settings. You really have to spend some time tweaking the settings. Also the triple rectifier (150W) is going to have to be extremely loud to get the power tube distortion happening.

Also try mixing the Marshall and Mesa sounds together. Some people are using splitters and running 2-3 amps at a time.

Who makes a good splitter box? That's what I need.

[84K]

Originally posted by neve1073
Who makes a good splitter box? That's what I need.

Kendrick makes a nice one.... the best is the Lucas Deceiver.... You can order it from the guys at Compass Point.... Best Of Luck!!

[brendondp]

Originally posted by neve1073
Who makes a good splitter box? That's what I need.

Lehle make an excellent one.

As I've previously posted elsewhere, the best heavy guitar sound I've heard comes from a mix of multiple amps.

Seriously, a splitter box and, say, a Vox or a Marshall, combined with, say, a Mesa/VHT/Bogner will get you great crunch and definition from the former, with heft and saturation from the latter.

This is where reamping can be your friend. As can an effective power-soak, but again, as wwittman stated above, is often a sonic compromise.

Cheers,

bdp