New Event Opal Monitors - not your regular speakers

[CoolColJ]

A little comparison of the HiLo and Saffire A/D - gives you an idea of the difference in sound I thought I heard from the Opals when I had them as my monitor outs

Lynx HiLo vs Saffire Pro 24 DSP A/D


edit - I do think it speaks volumes how well the Opals can convey the difference in colouration. I did not hear this same type of thing on the Twins and other speakers I had here before

[CoolColJ]

Well since having the Lynx Hilo driving the Opals.
The sound became really dead and muddy - not right.

I tinkered with the EQ and it still didn't sound right...
Then I set back everything flat and moved the speakers a bit, mainly rotating them a few inches outwards and boom, crispness, detail and width and depth

Acoustics works in strange ways sometimes...
Anyway the combo is unbelievable, with regard to incidental spikey details in mixes, things like low volume percussion, and tambourines are so sharp and precise and really stand out now.

The transparency of the combo is pretty breath taking
I keep hearing new "clicks" and spikey things that I have double check on headphones to make sure I'm not hearing artifacts/glitches as opposed to actual mix elements

[Ty Ford]

Heh, as the OP of this thread, started in July 2008, it's pretty amazing how long the commentary has lasted. Has there been any string about a monitor (or anything else) that's lasted this long?

Yes, the Opals are very revealing and offer a new perspective in listening. I'm still digging mine and really appreciate what they do. I had the opportunity to compare one of mine with a more recent model a few weeks ago and, even with the changes, they worked very well as a pair.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Andy_bt]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

Well since having the Lynx Hilo driving the Opals.
The sound became really dead and muddy - not right.

I tinkered with the EQ and it still didn't sound right...
Then I set back everything flat and moved the speakers a bit, mainly rotating them a few inches outwards and boom, crispness, detail and width and depth

Acoustics works in strange ways sometimes...

Just rotating mines from vertical to horizontal considerably helped reducing a deep in the lows... go figure!
A.

[CoolColJ]

I measured my Opal setup today with Room EQ Wizard, at my listening position, mic pointed straight ahead.
Used a Behringer ECM8000.
Much better system than the Studio EQ you get with the Opals....

EQ Set flat - I had been boosting the top end a bit, because since using the Lynx Hilo I thought it sounded muddy, and I was right - top end roll off
At least at my listening position, the Events are not bright and peaky up top like some say...

Big notch down at 78 hertz though. Going to try EQ it up with REW and the ARC system and see what happens
Overall flatter than I expected, and it does hit 40 hertz

[CoolColJ]

Hmm, so I ran the Opals through the ARC system in my room, and the results surprised me. The sound improved quite a bit, but the graph of the frequency responce doesn't seem to correlate with the top end roll off I got measured with Room EQ wizard, even when using the same mics....



I used 32 measuring spots with ARC spread around my whole listening area
The orange line is what my speakers measured at, and the white is the ARC corrected responce.
So that big dip at 78 hertz is still there on the right speaker, and a bit further down on the left one, but the top end is not rolled off, infact the oppposite!
Like +6db at 20 khz different....?

The "mud" I hear is the 3-4db bulge in the lower mids at the 200-330 hertz area, I presume.
And it looks like the bump in the low frequencies on the right was cancelled by the roll off on the left

ARC clears up the sound quite a bit and tightens everything up
I used the Genelec 8050 image, there was no Opal image in ARC

[Andy_bt]

There are some correction files available on the net for the ECM8000 you can load into REW (ARC is optimized with the mic so the measurements are probably more accurate).
Anyway for the highs I'd rather trust my ears and adjust so it fits my tastes, I think it's in the lows where it's really nice to get some visual feedback on what's going on.
Did you try measuring each monitor separately? it makes monitor and bass traps placement a lot easier. It's nice also to have as similar as possible responses on both monitors in order to not screw the stereo image too much.
Cheers,
A.

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by Andy_bt

There are some correction files available on the net for the ECM8000 you can load into REW (ARC is optimized with the mic so the measurements are probably more accurate).
Anyway for the highs I'd rather trust my ears and adjust so it fits my tastes, I think it's in the lows where it's really nice to get some visual feedback on what's going on.
Did you try measuring each monitor separately? it makes monitor and bass traps placement a lot easier. It's nice also to have as similar as possible responses on both monitors in order to not screw the stereo image too much.
Cheers,
A.

Ok I loaded the ECM8000 cal file into REW, and it still has roll off over 10khz....I wonder if it's due to the preamp....?

In any case the EQ on the Opal works pretty well
Both speakers measured, 1m away at the centre of both - Used both the low shelf and parametric at depth 4, Q of 5 at 220hertz. Quite an audible difference, but still there are those nulls.


Here with EQ'ed Opal, left and right speaker measured separately at the same location as above. No null at 5 khz, which maybe caused by phase cancellation at the mic?

[thetalkinghead]

i have a huge ass hole at 60hz. sucks having that. using a sub to fill it up

[Prick Up UR Ears]

[QUOTE=thetalkinghead;8136430]i have a huge ass hole at 60hz. sucks having that. using a sub to fill it up[/QUOTE

may be changing placement and treating the room first helps already?

[goldencd]

Originally Posted by thetalkinghead

i have a huge ass hole

maybe see a doctor

[Camembert]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

Ok I loaded the ECM8000 cal file into REW, and it still has roll off over 10khz....I wonder if it's due to the preamp....?

In any case the EQ on the Opal works pretty well
Both speakers measured, 1m away at the centre of both - Used both the low shelf and parametric at depth 4, Q of 5 at 220hertz. Quite an audible difference, but still there are those nulls.


Here with EQ'ed Opal, left and right speaker measured separately at the same location as above. No null at 5 khz, which maybe caused by phase cancellation at the mic?

Hi, did you tried to calibrate the soundcard + preamp?

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by Camembert

Hi, did you tried to calibrate the soundcard + preamp?

Yes

I took the Event Opals off the rubber plinths it comes with, and my heavy duty wooden stands, that are weighed down by metal plates, and put them up on small compressed felt pads (surface savers), sitting ontop sand filled and spiked Ultimate Studio stands. The position is narrower by 14 inches on each side and the tweeter is now higher than my ears by 3 inches. The sound immediately changed - much brighter, tighter, but less stereo width off course.

Set ECM8000 exactly the distance between the tweeters, in centre, front, pointed forwards. But the massive nulls are there, 72 hertz, 6khz, and 17khz. The low end one hasn't changed much, from 79 down to 72. And now instead of the muddy sounding bump at 200-300 hz, I get at dip at 258.




Much less variation between the speakers when measured separately now. Still rolling off above 10khz though
Red = left speaker, Blue = right speaker


Here is with the ECM8000 8 inches away - pic

Originally Posted by thetalkinghead

i have a huge ass hole at 60hz. sucks having that. using a sub to fill it up

Try and move the speakers, I had them pretty wide before on my heavy duty wooden stands. I moved inwards onto Ultimate Studio, sand filled and spiked stands, and big difference in sound! Bass came back, the sound and definition tightened up, and the mud is gone! They are further forward and a little wider than the position I had them in the above graphs.

I moved them back to their original position to compare, and honestly difference is night and day! Listening to Jean Michel Jarre's Equinoxe part 4, which has a prominent analog bass sound, really drove this difference home.

Position or speaker stand? Not sure, but where they used to be, the sounds was bigger and wider, but the bass sound from Equinoxe part 4 was totally canceled out, and the whole sound had a smeared almost flanged type sound - hence comb filtered character and nulls in the frequency responce, and muddy sound....

It still sounded a bit off, the left speaker didn't sound as loud, and there was still a softness to the sound, but when I shut my door, which is a few meters behind the left speaker in that corner, boom the final piece of the puzzle fell into place
Every opening in the room sure makes a difference. Something I never noticed before, I think the addition of Opal and Lynx Hilo together made it much more obvious

[Andy_bt]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

Yes
Set ECM8000 exactly the distance between the tweeters, in centre, front, pointed forwards. But the massive nulls are there, 72 hertz, 6khz, and 17khz. The low end one hasn't changed much, from 79 down to 72. And now instead of the muddy sounding bump at 200-300 hz, I get at dip at 258.

I moved them back to their original position to compare, and honestly difference is night and day! Listening to Jean Michel Jarre's Equinoxe part 4, which has a prominent analog bass sound, really drove this difference home.

Position or speaker stand? Not sure, but where they used to be, the sounds was bigger and wider, but the bass sound from Equinoxe part 4 was totally canceled out, and the whole sound had a smeared almost flanged type sound - hence comb filtered character and nulls in the frequency responce, and muddy sound....

It still sounded a bit off, the left speaker didn't sound as loud, and there was still a softness to the sound, but when I shut my door, which is a few meters behind the left speaker in that corner, boom the final piece of the puzzle fell into place
Every opening in the room sure makes a difference. Something I never noticed before, I think the addition of Opal and Lynx Hilo together made it much more obvious

Hey CoolcolJ,

Glad you're getting a better sound!
I would place the ECM at the mix position and point it up as it's omni.
Why not go to the acoustics forum? there's a lot of very competent guys who could probably give you some top notch advice about placement and treatment if you show them your room setup.
A.

[Fleaman]

Originally Posted by thetalkinghead

i have a huge ass hole at 60hz. sucks having that. using a sub to fill it up

Then it is your room/positioning that is creating that null, not the Opals.
You're forcing the fix by using a sub, not much different than say EQ'ing your mix buss to fill the hole.

If it were me, I'd fix the room/positioning before using a sub. And it's very likely that if you tried the Opals in a different room as I mentioned, you'd find they probably wouldn't have that hole at 60hz.

As Andy_bt said, go to the acoustics forum This is a room issue, not a Opal issue.

[CoolColJ]

I know a few here that have found more bass switching from TRS-XLR, to TRS-TRS cables.

For me it's the opposite..?!
I have been using TRS-XLR with the Opals, and yesterday switched to TRS-TRS and man it does sound different.....
It's much brighter, less mids and bass, with the TRS-TRS.
TRS-XLR sounds much thicker and bassier on my Opals, to the point of sounding muddy sometimes...

very strange - cables or Opal issue?

Could explain the 10khz roll off....
TRS-TRS sounds excessively bright now with my analog synths

[CoolColJ]

Ok I tried the following from Hilo to Opal, and they all sounded different....

Silver TRS to TRS premium cable - lean bass, scooped mids, very bright sound
Silver TRS to XLR - cheaper cable - lots of bottom end and lower mids, big fuzzy sound, kinda muddy
Gold TRS to TRS - full bottom end, very nice and honey sweet tuneful sound.... which is supposed to be a cheap patch cable
TRS Patch Cable Stereo / Balanced Lead 6.5mm 1/4" 80cm | Swamp

I actually bought the gold TRS cable to use with the Motu 2408 mk3 to send CV signals to my analog synths from Silentway VST..... but it sounds so nice with the Hilo and Opal, that I might have to get some custom made gold connectors and 110ohm cables from Redco...

[Elix]

This is quite hard to take by word. Maybe do some measurements for objective comparison?

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by Elix

This is quite hard to take by word. Maybe do some measurements for objective comparison?

I guess I could do some REW sweeps from the Opal, or maybe try and do a loopback with the cables where possible with my Lynx Hilo to see if it's just a cable issue.

The silver TRS to XLR is what I was using when I complained about excessive bass and mudiness, and where I recorded the 10khz dropoff graphs with REW above.... The bass boom and extra thickness is ridiculus with this cable!

The premium silver TRS to TRS cable seems to be the most accurate. It just sounds so bright because I'm so used to listening to the above cable!

I'm going to get some custom made 110ohm AES/EBU cables from Redco for audio use (instead of digital), to see if a better quality cable and connectors, of both TRS-TRS and XLR-TRS types to see if it's just a cable/connector quality issue and not the type of cable used...

The silver TRS-XLR cable is also the same one I used with the Focal Twins, with the Opals on the premium TRS cable, when I had both... which might explain why I heard the tonal differences between them that I did - mainly the Twins sounded more cloudy down low, and thicker through the mids.... which could have been caused by that specific cable....
Assuming if it's just a cable quality issue that is

[thetalkinghead]

Originally Posted by Fleaman

Then it is your room/positioning that is creating that null, not the Opals.
You're forcing the fix by using a sub, not much different than say EQ'ing your mix buss to fill the hole.

If it were me, I'd fix the room/positioning before using a sub. And it's very likely that if you tried the Opals in a different room as I mentioned, you'd find they probably wouldn't have that hole at 60hz.

As Andy_bt said, go to the acoustics forum This is a room issue, not a Opal issue.

yea for now its ooookay but far from ideal. really not sure how else i can improve the acoustics. ive done everything possible. changing rooms is not an option for me. :/ really sucks. will go to acoustics forum...

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

I know a few here that have found more bass switching from TRS-XLR, to TRS-TRS cables.

For me it's the opposite..?!
I have been using TRS-XLR with the Opals, and yesterday switched to TRS-TRS and man it does sound different.....
It's much brighter, less mids and bass, with the TRS-TRS.
TRS-XLR sounds much thicker and bassier on my Opals, to the point of sounding muddy sometimes...

very strange - cables or Opal issue?

Could explain the 10khz roll off....
TRS-TRS sounds excessively bright now with my analog synths

that is really not okay... for $3000 speakers to sound totally different with cables that should sound EXACTLY the same.

whats also not okay is that there isnt an Event rep on this thread explaining what the **** is going on.

[Ty Ford]

"whats also not okay is that there isnt an Event rep on this thread explaining what the **** is going on."

Not a job I'd want; a forum with an abundance of whiners and nay-sayers who would like nothing but to piss in Event's well.

I think some of the posters on this thread must be related to people who were at the witch hunts in Salem, Massachusetts.

Sad.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by thetalkinghead

yea for now its ooookay but far from ideal. really not sure how else i can improve the acoustics. ive done everything possible. changing rooms is not an option for me. :/ really sucks. will go to acoustics forum...



that is really not okay... for $3000 speakers to sound totally different with cables that should sound EXACTLY the same.

whats also not okay is that there isnt an Event rep on this thread explaining what the **** is going on.

Not really, all cables do not sound exactly the same. Quality of shielding, solder, connectors, silver/copper wire, capacitance etc all effect the sound. Cables act like filters so it's not a surprise why I hear the difference between them.

And I also read from an interview with the guy behind Cranesong stuff, that the impendance levels of DACs and circuitry can greatly effect the sound depending on the cables and circuitry in the conversion

If anything, if I did not hear a difference then the quality of monitors would be crappy so as to mask the difference you would think?

[FakeOnMercy]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

Not really, all cables do not sound exactly the same. Quality of shielding, solder, connectors, silver/copper wire, capacitance etc all effect the sound. Cables act like filters so it's not a surprise why I hear the difference between them.

And I also read from an interview with the guy behind Cranesong stuff, that the impendance levels of DACs and circuitry can greatly effect the sound depending on the cables and circuitry in the conversion

If anything, if I did not hear a difference then the quality of monitors would be crappy so as to mask the difference you would think?

+1

I changed from cheap TRS-TRS to Vovox Sonorus Direct S XLR-XLR and WOWwwww what an improvement. The low end is much punchier and the overal sound has more definition. That has nothing to do with the Opals. I heard the cable on ATC SCM100's in the store and the sound improved also on them. I always loved my Opals and now I love them even more! My gf said the cheaper cables have sand in them :-)

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by CoolColJ

Not really, all cables do not sound exactly the same. Quality of shielding, solder, connectors, silver/copper wire, capacitance etc all effect the sound. Cables act like filters so it's not a surprise why I hear the difference between them.

And I also read from an interview with the guy behind Cranesong stuff, that the impendance levels of DACs and circuitry can greatly effect the sound depending on the cables and circuitry in the conversion

If anything, if I did not hear a difference then the quality of monitors would be crappy so as to mask the difference you would think?

Also +1

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Lux]

Originally Posted by FakeOnMercy

+1

I changed from cheap TRS-TRS to Vovox Sonorus Direct S XLR-XLR and WOWwwww what an improvement. The low end is much punchier and the overal sound has more definition. That has nothing to do with the Opals. I heard the cable on ATC SCM100's in the store and the sound improved also on them. I always loved my Opals and now I love them even more! My gf said the cheaper cables have sand in them :-)

Have same experience- had own made xlr to trs to Opals (balanced) - ok quality, tried ordinarie mic cables, xlr-xlr. Result; even better low end, more overall defined sound, somehow more easy to make mix decisions. Now I am curios to try with quality xlr cables. ( By the way, Event recommend the use of xlr connection)

[hop.sing]

Originally Posted by Lux

Have same experience- had own made xlr to trs to Opals (balanced) - ok quality, tried ordinarie mic cables, xlr-xlr. Result; even better low end, more overall defined sound, somehow more easy to make mix decisions. Now I am curios to try with quality xlr cables. ( By the way, Event recommend the use of xlr connection)

This cable topic sounds pretty mysterious to me. Since there are no transformers in the opals and assuming they use common design practices and impedances for the input stage, there really should be no influence of cable material and construction. Especially since you normally use a pretty short one from mixing desk, controller or converter.
I would say, it is impossible to measure or hear a difference between cheap or expensive cables of a few meters in a regular line level application like connecting active speakers. That does of course not apply in high impedance applications like connecting passive guitars or some old synths and organs that have a high output impedance.
If the opals behave otherwise, that would be a hint to drastic design errors IMO.
By the way, I have the opals and really like them a lot, they are connected with regular xlr cables and they sound stellar that way. Next time in the studio, I will connect them with a trs plug and try to hear a difference.

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by hop.sing

This cable topic sounds pretty mysterious to me. Since there are no transformers in the opals and assuming they use common design practices and impedances for the input stage, there really should be no influence of cable material and construction. Especially since you normally use a pretty short one from mixing desk, controller or converter.
I would say, it is impossible to measure or hear a difference between cheap or expensive cables of a few meters in a regular line level application like connecting active speakers. That does of course not apply in high impedance applications like connecting passive guitars or some old synths and organs that have a high output impedance.
If the opals behave otherwise, that would be a hint to drastic design errors IMO.
By the way, I have the opals and really like them a lot, they are connected with regular xlr cables and they sound stellar that way. Next time in the studio, I will connect them with a trs plug and try to hear a difference.

I've switched the cables at least 10 times already between 3 different types, and the differences are not subtle! And my ears/listening and perception are not crap. As much difference as there are between speakers. From flat and bright to coloured and tubey/transformer sounding...

It could be the DAC side coupling that is responsible, but your forgetting that we have a low level signal that is getting amplified a lot. I'm using a Lynx Hilo. As that Cranesong dude said, DAC chips have impedances that need to be taken into account of

The cable differences from hooking up a synth to a mixer is not that great, but it's there. But from a DAC to amp, amp to speaker is where it's quite big

[thetalkinghead]

of course there is a difference between the quality of cables... obviously. a mogami will sound much better than a monoprice.

my point was that cables of equal quality of the same brand should sound the same. why would a mogami trs to trs and mogami trs to xlr produce drastically different results? youre telling me thats okay? in that case why are the opals the only monitors that are sensitive to this?

again, i love my opals and will keep them for many more years.. but this issue is NOT okay.

i mean seriously did you guys not know what i meant?

[FakeOnMercy]

Yup you are right, that isn't normal!

[CoolColJ]

Originally Posted by thetalkinghead

of course there is a difference between the quality of cables... obviously. a mogami will sound much better than a monoprice.

my point was that cables of equal quality of the same brand should sound the same. why would a mogami trs to trs and mogami trs to xlr produce drastically different results? youre telling me thats okay? in that case why are the opals the only monitors that are sensitive to this?

again, i love my opals and will keep them for many more years.. but this issue is NOT okay.

i mean seriously did you guys not know what i meant?

Nobody said that, the cables were different. In any case the connectors of each type are different. You also don't know what types of solder was used and the quality of such etc etc

I have a sets of Neutrik connectors on Gotham GAC2AES 110ohm cables from Redco coming - XLR to XLR, TRS to XLR and TRS to TRS. We will see how different they sound, if any.
Someone here did a shootout between various cables and these ranked right up there with a even tone, not too harsh or dull, with a full sound.

Will also get Belden 1800F cable also on Neutrik connectors, later on from Blue Jeans Cable. They have lesser shielding, but are also low capacitance AES/EBU 110 ohm cables, and see how they compare

These are are only $40+ a 15 feet cable and are custom made, so probably cheaper than off the shelf cables. Not really willing to spend over $100 a cable like some of these esoteric pure silver cables are... Yes silver has a different sound to copper....