Grand Piano or Virtual Piano?? Who Has Both???

[JohnnyTonk]

...anyone have a concert grand(etc...) and uses a software grand like the Steinway Virtual Grand instead for ease of use??

Are they even comparable???

Interested to know how close they are getting...

The demos sound fairly convincing..

Authorized Steinway Demo Page

Thanks..

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTonk

...anyone have a concert grand(etc...) and uses a software grand like the Steinway Virtual Grand instead for ease of use??

Are they even comparable???

Interested to know how close they are getting...

The demos sound fairly convincing..

Authorized Steinway Demo Page

Thanks..

To my ears those samples don't even come close to the real thing. I play a real piano and I love the sound.

[anguswoodhead]

I've used a number of different sampled pianos.
Just bought a 6 foot grand.
Finally the sound I have been seeking.
Can't beat the real thing I reckon.
Same with Organ thru a Leslie - nothing better than a real rotating speaker.

[JohnnyTonk]

Just about to take the plunge on a C7..

Putting it in my new studios live room...(duh!! e!)

What mics (under 5k) have you guys found best on a grand... Lid Up/off? i have done a search on this and found some answers but hopefully not everyone is using C12 and 24's!!!

Cheers

[anguswoodhead]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/work-...ts-please.html

Here's what I use plus some mp3's.

[The Byre]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTonk

...anyone have a concert grand(etc...) and uses a software grand like the Steinway Virtual Grand instead for ease of use??

Are they even comparable???

Interested to know how close they are getting...

The demos sound fairly convincing..

Authorized Steinway Demo Page

Thanks..

We have the real thing (Bösendorfer 275) some of the usual samples and Korg Classic Keys for Triton.

Comparable? Only when held in the background. As a solo instrument, never.

Close? If you don't get to hear the real thing as a comparison, they sound very convincing - but only until you hear the real thing.

[musikwerks]

How would you rate the Bardstown Audio Bosendorfer samples with your knowledge of the real Bosendorfer? I have the Bardstown and really love it.

[JohnnyTonk]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Close? If you don't get to hear the real thing as a comparison, they sound very convincing - but only until you hear the real thing.

Man i'm looking forward to it!!!

Only ever played a C5 in the studio.. and it wasn't sounding great...

Needed a tech!

[MichaelT]

Take the best piano software that you can get your hands on, maybe add a little/or a lot of convolution reverb of a piano's soundboard, then place it in a great sounding room reverb...and the result can be very convincing, depending on the rest of the track.

That said, a real piano doesn't have to try to be convincing. It is what it is...real.

You can make it work either way; you really can. Don't be afraid to use software, but make sure you do your best to give it as much character as possibly. Use the best reverb you can find to put it in a realistic space (a small room, or even a large hall if you're going for that sound)...that alone can go a long way in the software piano world...not all the way, but a long way. (this all assuming you've got a great sample piano to work with...I use Art Vista's pianos, along with Ivory once in a while)

[Fletcher]

We have a 5' "Hardman" from the 40's... I've heard no software that even begins to compare to the real thing. It'll depend on what kind of music you're doing... I've worked on many a project where a "piano in the box" was employed... 5-6 hours and $30-40k of processing gear later we were able to get them to sound acceptable inside a track... stand alone they still sounded kinda "toyish".

As always, YMMV.

Peace.

[AB3]

There is no real piano is a set of two speakers, whether from samples or recorded. So they are all compromises. The only way to hear a real piano is to play one. Once you record it, it is a sampled piano, though it is playing the whole piece in a special way.

So the real issue is how to sample a piano, have it be played from a controller and mimic all the nuances of PLAYING that a real piano does.

If one were playing only one note, theoretically a sampled piano would sound just as good or better than a real piano, if the recording process used by the sampler, piano and room are as good or better.

But unfortunately, once it is all played on SPEAKERS, it no longer sounds like a real piano, BECAUSE real pianos do not use speakers to make their sound.

[Killahurts]

I have a Yamaha DC7 Disclavier Grand in my studio, and I also use samples (lots of different sets, actually).

As a composer, it's just more convenient to use the samplers when possible, especially for bit parts, because they are always tuned and because sometimes I need a specific piano texture.

But if it's solo piano, or something really important for realism, there's nothing like the real thing of course. I usually use 2 or 4 Earthworks mic's to capture the reality, and then maybe some LDC or even a dynamic into the Vipre to supplement the bottom, or not.

The grand piano is a very large instrument and your room will come into play when you're recording it, no matter what. Make sure your room sounds good before you tune, voice and record the piano, and you'll save yourself a lot of headache.

[1954U1]

I've not a grand piano..
but consider myself very lucky for having a 1954's U1 Yamaha 1st series upright [the better upright I've ever played IMO],
this one never stayed in dry environments, so the soundboard is still good.

I can say you that for maybe a single note, the virtual ones I've tried are very similar if not better
[apart for the lacks of dynamics a true hammer-action has].

But every emulation lacks all the things that happen in a real piano in terms of complex interactions between the strings.. not to say the soundboard..
Try to do on a real piano some passages with more than one note played simultaneously,
or also think about the tone added by simply leaving a key pressed while playing others..
The emulation cant handle all of these calculations, and you can hear it instantly.

So, with a virtual piano you lose a lot of sound's attributes.

[seanmccoy]

I have a Kawai RX Series seven-footer, and a very large collection of sampled pianos (Vintech, PMI, Art Vista, Native Instruments, Sampletekk, etc...). I would always use the Kawai, but I have to keep it in a remote studio so it only gets used on piano-specific and large group sessions. The samples have gotten better and better, and with some care can be made to sound very good and very convincing within a mix.

But in addition to the indescribable depth and range of the grand that no sample library can emulate, I find that pianists just play better on the real thing. There's no replacing that tactile feel and the vibe of the instrument filling the room for pure inspiration. Each piano and room are different, but I've gotten good sounds from my Kawai using AT 4033's for a bright pop sound, Earthworks TC40k's for an extremely natural sound, and more recently have been using my new Gefell UMT70s's, which give me the personal and contemporary sound of the AT's, but are noticeably richer and bigger.

[Mr.HOLMES]

As a musician I have to ask how could someone come to the idea that a sample based piano could substitute a real piano?

You can hear in the first two bars of a recording that it was a sampled piano even if it is IVORY etc....the dynamic is not the same it is not breathing.... I just use such a thing for adverts or for customers who have not a lot of money.

If a classical player would ask me for recording I would always advise him to book a studio with a nice Steinway or equivalent Grand Piano.

It is the same with guitars bases etc.... I hate working this way because it kills music.

[RKrizman]

I have a Yamaha C7 and Ivory, and I use both. My grand has a very bulky, fat sound which takes up a lot of space. Ivory has a Steinway sample that is a nice, more growly alterrnative to the Yamaha, but doesn't play quite as convincingly from my weighted control keyboard. The latency bugs me a little.

I use Ivory for writing, usually, and the Yamaha for the final track, unless I need something much more pointed and detailed. A lot of recording studio pianos have had their hammers laquered to get a brighter, more pop sound (Elton John, Bruce Hornsby, etc). I didn't want to do that to my piano, so when I'm looking for a brighter pop sound I'll sometimes go with Ivory, or something cheesier.

In other words, there's no easy answer.

But having a good real piano is rewarding in a zillion different ways.

-R

[Kiwiburger]

I've played with many synth & software pianos, and they all pretty much blow chunks.

Even the expensive multi-gigabyte piano libraries are fundamentally flawed, and certainly not worth the disk space & system crashes. For these very simple reasons:

1 - For some reason, most people making piano libraries don't have good mic technique. I guess they are using a spaced pair usually, and end up with a gutless, phased out middle C. The middle is where the meat is, and I don't care that the bottom and top notes sound totally awesome if the middle sucks.

2 - mono compatibility is usually stink. Same reason as #1.

3 - there is a HUGE difference between playing piano chords one ONE piano, with all the strings interacting with each other and with ONE sounding board, in ONE ambiant space .... compared to LAYERING recordings of single played notes ... where there is no phase coherency between the recordings, and the ambiance stacks up like a bad comb filter ... can you see how wrong this is?

4 - triggering 'release' samples is a gross stupidity. Samplers don't have any way of knowing how long the note has been played for, and therefore don't know how loud the tail has decayed to ... so bringing in a sample at 'X' dB to finish of a note is always going to be wrong. It's just wrong. And NO, this has absolutely nothing to do with the velocity of a MIDI note off event ...

IMO - some dedicated digital pianos from the hardware experts (Roland, Kurzweil, Yamaha, etc) piss all over any software or sample library. Even if they only use mere megabytes of ROM - they have engineered things a lot better than most software libraries can (given current state of sampler formats). Even then - check mono compatibility if you care for useable mixes.

Things could be changing. I recently tried some software that modeled a piano extremely well. It used a few samples, but the core tone was completely virtual and well tweakable to taste. The velocity responded excellently - no rude shocks caused by dud samples - and all with a very small file size and CPU footprint.

Nothing's going to compete with those hoary old upright pianos from Abbey Road or whatever for olde worlde charm. They always pleased me far more than a perfect classical grand piano. But for big pop pianos, sometimes synthetic is perfectly pleasing.

[jbsg02]

For some reason I just LOVE miking pianos

[Holy Grail]

I find it just so much easier to get it to fit in the mix, a real piano. Much more easy !!! And fun !!
It's the same thing with a leslie, the real deal usally "blend" better in the mix. The same is true with guitaramps vs. modelers.

We have a beutiful C7 ! Love that one. If you visit my myspace page, you'll hear it on the track "St louis #1"

- Jon

[Outlaw Hans]

I have a Bluethner grand piano that sounds amazing. But you need the good room and good mics to get it to sound right. I have a pair of Avenson omni's that do the trick perfectly well. I've never been totally pleased with cardioids or LD condensers although I've had nice results with 414's in a different studio.
It's no comparison. Once properly miked the real deal will sit better in the mix and it will give that authentic and professional vibe to the recording.

[mark714]

This question is very genre specific. If the tracks live alongside other instrumentation you can get away with samples fairly easily. If you have the money, resources and knowledge to go the old school route you may be able achieve far greater results. Most music makers do not fall into that category.

Considering the cost associated with obtaining and maintaining quality instruments to record the piano, a sample library can be (and often is) an acceptable alternative to "reality." It still holds true that the real magic lies in the hands of the performer... regardless of the domain in which you record.

My good friend sounds awesome whether he's playing an 8' Steinway, a C9 or the cheapo virtual grand built into Logic 8. Likewise, I sound equally amateur on all three.

[seanmccoy]

Originally Posted by mark714

My good friend sounds awesome whether he's playing an 8' Steinway, a C9 or the cheapo virtual grand built into Logic 8. Likewise, I sound equally amateur on all three.

thumbsup Same here!

[Watersound]

I have a Baldwin grand and it is much better than any samples on its own. I have lots of good sample libraries and depending on the source, they can be great. But like most others have said, the samples just cannot do what a real piano does, period.

[elambo]

I have a 7' Baldwin and 9' Yamaha, and also Ivory. There's no question that the real grand pianos sound better, especially if the track is solo piano, but Ivory is very usable simply because of it's easy-of-use. It's practically impossible to switch between a Bosie, Steinway and Yamaha in the midst of a recording session, but with Ivory it takes only about 5-10 seconds to make that switch. Then you can decide which works best. That kind of versatility can be invaluable. Plus, in a mix it can sound very good. VERY good. But the subtleties of a real piano are just not in the plugin and the average ear can pick that up without much effort when the piano is front and center.

[elambo]

Originally Posted by mark714

My good friend sounds awesome whether he's playing an 8' Steinway, a C9 or the cheapo virtual grand built into Logic 8. Likewise, I sound equally amateur on all three.

This has already been quoted once but it deserves another...

I've found this to be entirely true (and it works for just about any instrument). When we record true pianists, it doesn't much matter if they're using a 9' grand or Ivory - they sound incredible. But sit me at the best Bosendorfer and I'll still sound like a hack, just dragging my wet noodles all over the keys.

On a scale of 1-10, I sound like a 4 with Ivory and a 5 with a grand piano. A pianist sounds like a 9 with Ivory and a 10 with a grand. So, far and away, the biggest difference is the skills, but once you have those skills that extra 10% is nice to have.

[dan p]

As someone said earlier i also have a c7 grand in my living room and i use ivory mostly in the studio.Nothing beats the real thing but the convenience of ivory is not to be denied if you are playin in a track.For Solo Piano I would prefer the the real thing but there is the cost of maintenance ,tuning everytime and gettin those mikes placed just right for your style of music and that can take some time away from being creative.
In the end it's nice to have both Ay!


dan p

[Dirty Halo]

Hey, I too admire the art of a true grand piano. Hell, any piano. The wood, the the feel, the soundboard and all the interactions that produces...

BUT, GIVE ME A BREAK GUYS! I bet you almost ANYTHING the lot of you could not reliably tell the difference in a blind test mix.

A solo piece is another matter (even then, some will be fooled).

-a

[dan p]

Yeah DH, very few would be able to tell the difference especially at 24/192 but someone with a well trained ear may be able to?


Dan P

[Mr.HOLMES]

@all

For several reasons Neumann is doing a micing Piano contest to Tonmeisters every year.
I think micing a good piano sound is not easy.

But as a guitar player I can tell you that things like guitar libraries are awful.
They have no dynamic they always sound the same.

To my ear the same is with all other instruments.
Yes I use BFD Drums and other sampled instruments but just if the client is having a small budget.

If the starter of the discussion can afford a Steinway or other Grand Piano and a great Recording Room...PLEASE go for the real Piano.....Software instruments will not come even CLOSE!!!

[BartsPlace]

I guess the answer is the infamous "it depends." If you're running your own studio for your own work, you can (quite successfully) pick your own poison. If you're running a studio for hire, having a real piano instantly separates you from those with only keyboards. For me it has been one of the first questions out of a potential client's mouth.

Along those lines, I have never been able to convince a real (whatever that means) pianist to use my (very accurate and believable) piano samples while looking at my 7'6" piano through the control room glass - no matter how long it's been since the tuner's last visit.

- Bart