LE vs HD.....the big debate

[Matt Whritenour]

Hi,

I have a 002r, and would possibly one day like to switch to HD (or whatever the higher level is at the time) but before I even consider actually going to HD, I would much rather (and I'm going to) have 16 Hi End Converters (maybe 18 if I used spdif also) and switch to Pro Tools M-Powered along with the M-Audio Profire Lightbridge M-Audio ProFire Lightbridge | Sweetwater.com

This way you can use all high quality external converters and avoid the digi ones. And you will have that extra money you didn't spend on HD if you need any outboard gear. I'd much rather have great outboard than an HD system, esp. if I can use all high quality converters.

Also if you buy converters that have the HD option slot. If you decide to go HD you can keep your current converters and hook them right up to the Core/Accell Cards

[superiorsound]

That seems like a great idea! I didnt know they made anything like that. I am still curious to findout the difference though. I have mixed in many hd studios and cant tell the difference. I dont know im stuck.

Thanks,

[Dirty Halo]

Part of this "High-End" decision depends on what kind of studio you run. If it is truly a professional studio, ie with clients, etc. then PTHD and one to one compatibility with other high-end facilities is something to consider.

Other than that, I agree that converter quality will affect sound more than HD vs. LE. Not sure what function are or are not in LD compared to my HD system, but I bet not many of them have to do with sound... I guess sample rate specs should be considered.


-a

[Matt Whritenour]

I should add to that then, with a Digi LE interface if you use the the ADAT input you can only run up to 48k where with the M-Audio Profire Lightbridge you can run 96k with SMUX inputs. I should also mention that even though the Lightbridge can do up to like 34i/36o ProTools does limit it to 18i/o.

There is no reason why the sound would be any different. Are the TDM plugins better than RTAS? or is it just nice that you have DSP for them?
With computers getting faster and faster you can run tons of RTAS plugs with no hickups. HD does have Automatic Delay Compensation. If you did stick with a LE/MP system I would also make sure to have the Music Production toolkit if you do not already have it.

[superiorsound]

I do have the music production toolkit that is why I am on the ropes. Yes it is somewhat of a professional studio as i have several paying clients. So the only difference is track count and sample rate? If I am using top notch converters/mics/preamps theres no reason to move then?

[neilio]

Originally Posted by superiorsound

That seems like a great idea! I didnt know they made anything like that. I am still curious to findout the difference though. I have mixed in many hd studios and cant tell the difference. I dont know im stuck.

Thanks,

the main differences between the two are dedicated plugs, higher track counts, a few extra goodies, a few extra tools...

but what everyone usually forgets is the difference in hd/ mix, is the professional abilty to LOCK to or generate timecode to other pro devices, through either the old usd, or the newer sync box....

what that allows is dead accurate locking to incoming timecodes, for sync transfers, tape machines, video devices, blackburst, 29.97, 299.97 df, etc etc...

that besides the more raw power, is how i always viewed the the extra cost of the higher systems...it makes pro tools able to play with the other big boys....

now with that being said, you may want to pick a used mix/888 system, u can very much use modern convertors, and time clocks, but for pennies on the dollar for a hd system...

there would be drawbacks, an older system, older plugs...but for about a grand you could get an older PRO system, and if it makes you money, than look into the hd system. by that token, hd has been around for awhile, id be suspect that something new is 6 months to year away...

[sevendaysoff]

Originally Posted by superiorsound

That seems like a great idea! I didnt know they made anything like that. I am still curious to findout the difference though. I have mixed in many hd studios and cant tell the difference. I dont know im stuck.

Thanks,

thats crazy because i can hear a dramatic difference just playing back an LE session in HD.

also, you can only use 10 digital inputs with an 002r/002/003/003r . So getting a 16 channel interface would be overkill. If you want to upgrade your LE setup grab a lynx aurora 8 with a lt-adat card and a good 2 channel spdif converter.

as far as quality goes, HD sounds much better, there are more factors then 'a couple extra goodies' . such as added headroom, different playback engine, a 48 bit mix system & matrix opposed to 32 bit float, higher track counts, higher sample rates, delay compensation, etc. etc. the list goes on.

if your using LE now why would you have to go all the way to HD3 ?!?!

I would get yourself a used PCI-X core card and HD process card and you'll still have much more power than your LE system. Why do you need to jump from 48 tracks (LE with MP Toolkit) to 192 (HD3)? HD1 core can still do 96 tracks @ 48k with no stress on comp.

[superiorsound]

The reason I would go to HD3 is because I would get a smoking deal 8200 for the HD3 where if i go with an hd1 its 6 grand so for the extra 2 grand I would get 9k worth of plugs. I actually have all my gear linked to lucid gen x clock. I have noticed a difference since I added it low end is much more tighter. So your saying there will be a bigger difference in quality. The thing that would suck is I have a sh*t load of plugs which would cost a fortune to switch to tdm.

Let me ask you this do you think its possible to produce professional mixes via an LE rig?

[dhiltonlittle]

Originally Posted by superiorsound

The reason I would go to HD3 is because I would get a smoking deal 8200 for the HD3 where if i go with an hd1 its 6 grand so for the extra 2 grand I would get 9k worth of plugs. I actually have all my gear linked to lucid gen x clock. I have noticed a difference since I added it low end is much more tighter. So your saying there will be a bigger difference in quality. The thing that would suck is I have a sh*t load of plugs which would cost a fortune to switch to tdm.

Let me ask you this do you think its possible to produce professional mixes via an LE rig?

If you know how to mix you can mix on anything. LE/HD/Nuendo/SSL/Neve/Whatever. unless you have a professional/commercial studio HD is not a wise investment unless you have alot of $ laying around and already have awesome mics, converters, preamps, eq's, dynamics, and room treatment. with the music production toolkit and the knowledge to compensate for delay manually you'll be fine without it. especially with the cpu you have! just my opinion....

[sevendaysoff]

Originally Posted by superiorsound

Let me ask you this do you think its possible to produce professional mixes via an LE rig?

yes and i have done just that. you need a quality D/A though. mixing in HD is a little less taxing and you dont have to watch your back in terms of headroom. I find it much easier to get the space and air in mixes on my HD system as w/ LE I always find myself backtracking and turning things down as the mix progresses.

If I were you I would save your $$ and you could get mytek, hd1 core and hd process card for that kind of coin. the $8200 doesnt get you any converters and it sounds like HD3 is overkill for what you do anyways (although I dont really know).

[BLUElightCory]

I wanted to throw this in there...

If your computer can run a lot of RTAS plugs and tracks already, you could consider just going with an HD1 system with nice converters. This way, you'd be able to reap the benefits of an HD system, PLUS you'd still have all the RTAS power of your current rig, on top of the processing power from the HD Core card. You can always add more cards later as you wish, and the initial investment is much lower.

[Quint]

From looking at your website, it looks like you mix ITB. Aside from the differences already mentioned, another big difference between HD and LE is the mix portion of the audio engine. There are several lengthy threads on the difference between LE and HD when it comes to this issue (HD is supposed to be better). So that might be something to consider too. There are also the previously mentioned issues of TDM vs RTAS, etc, etc. The relevance of those issues would just depend on you and your setup/situation.

That being said, if you already have good converters or are planning on getting some, why do you have to use Pro Tools at all? Keep the LE around for compatibility, so that you can import/export Pro Tools files when/if needed, but use something else like Logic, Cubase, or Nuendo to do your work in. These other DAW's are every bit as good as HD and current computer power has eliminated HD's advantage in the processing power department.

I would use good converters (better than Digi anyway) and use another DAW for everything. Then, if you need to import somebody's Pro Tools file or export a Pro Tools file to somebody else, simply fire up the LE and use it for that purpose and then convert back and forth between LE and your main DAW when these situations arise. Also, if you just have to use Pro Tools but don't wanna spend the mula for HD, I'd get rid of the LE and get M-powered (for the reasons mentioned above).

Oh, and if you're just dying to spend some money, why not take the money you'd save by not buying HD and take that money and get you a decent console or summing box so you can mix, or at least sum, OTB?

[superiorsound]

Thanks for the info!

As I stated above I have quite a few clients and only been involved in mixing for 4-5 years seems as if it just came out of nowhere. My actual budget is 20k if I make the move. I already have the RME 8 channels so I would probably go with apoggee 16 channels. I already have tons of gear which i really can utilize as inserts becasue of latency.....

Once again thank you all for the great information.


I would consider my studio a semi commercial...being started out as personal stuff and merged into ...now everyone around here seems to come to me to record.

Frank

[superiorsound]

I would use good converters (better than Digi anyway) and use another DAW for everything. Then, if you need to import somebody's Pro Tools file or export a Pro Tools file to somebody else, simply fire up the LE and use it for that purpose and then convert back and forth between LE and your main DAW. Also, if you just have to use Pro Tools but don't wanna spend the mula for HD, I'd get rid of the LE and get M-powered (for the reasons mentioned above).

Oh, and if you're just dying to spend some money, why not take the money you'd save by not buying HD and take that money and get you a decent console or summing box so you can mix, or at least sum, OTB?[/quote]


lol dredding spending the money but am at a point as a studio where I find myself questioning it. I have done some killer projects using my set up and have even had some big studios that master my project saying the stuff sounds great( now htat could be just hype to get my clients business) but I just wanted some professional feedback from the Gear Slut gurus.

[thethrillfactor]

Go to HD3.

The day you are fortunate enough to have the "name producer of the month" book time and want to overdub vocal tracks for example and his songs have 180 tracks with every TDM plug in you could imagine and you can't even open it, is the day you'll realize why so many pros use HD.

What's even crazier is when the "hottest producer/ITB mixer of the year" wants to do a session and you realize that even an HD3 is not enough is the day you realize why the hell would anyone do LE to begin with.

[Quint]

lol dredding spending the money but am at a point as a studio where I find myself questioning it. I have done some killer projects using my set up and have even had some big studios that master my project saying the stuff sounds great( now htat could be just hype to get my clients business) but I just wanted some professional feedback from the Gear Slut gurus.

Well, if I was you I would either get a full blown HD system to mix with, use a different DAW, or make a move to OTB. What I wouldn't do is use LE to mix with, that is if you're trying to go a fully professional route.

[mistaD]

Originally Posted by Matt Whritenour

I should add to that then, with a Digi LE interface if you use the the ADAT input you can only run up to 48k where with the M-Audio Profire Lightbridge you can run 96k with SMUX inputs. I should also mention that even though the Lightbridge can do up to like 34i/36o ProTools does limit it to 18i/o.

Is there any way around the 18 i/o? Is the only way for someone to be able to use 32 channels of i/o to upgrade to a hd system?

[Quint]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Go to HD3.

The day you are fortunate enough to have the "name producer of the month" book time and want to overdub vocal tracks for example and his songs have 180 tracks with every TDM plug in you could imagine and you can't even open it, is the day you'll realize why so many pros use HD.

What's even crazier is when the "hottest producer/ITB mixer of the year" wants to do a session and you realize that even an HD3 is not enough is the day you realize why the hell would anyone do LE to begin with.

I wouldn't disagree with this if there is the real possibility or desire to eventually achieve a situation(s) where the "hottest producer/ITB mixer of the year" is coming into the studio. However, I guess I just got the impression that he wasn't quite to that level and wasn't necessarily aiming for that either. If so, then, yes, HD definitely has it's advantages.

[ORGANIK]

my 2 cents if you can drop 10 g's get an hd rig no questions asked, if you cant get great converters and go logic. logic 8 with a new mac is no different plug in wise than hd maybe a bit but without 3 dsp cards i have no problem usuing a huge assortment of vsynths, samplers, multiple reverbs and at least eq and comp on almost every track

[Quint]

Originally Posted by mistaD

Is there any way around the 18 i/o? Is the only way for someone to be able to use 32 channels of i/o to upgrade to a hd system?

There was a bug in the code for the M-powered 7.3 release that allowed higher counts of i/o. I think it only worked for mac users and was quickly repaired in 7.4. It also required that you had to have the M-audio lightbridge or whatever it's called. So that would work, but it's kind of a bullshit means of getting more i/o and you wouldn't ever be able to upgrade. Do a search about this here on Gslutz if you're interested.

Aside from that, there is no way to get higher i/o through Pro Tools unless you go the HD route.

[dhiltonlittle]

Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

Go to HD3.

The day you are fortunate enough to have the "name producer of the month" book time and want to overdub vocal tracks for example and his songs have 180 tracks with every TDM plug in you could imagine and you can't even open it, is the day you'll realize why so many pros use HD.

What's even crazier is when the "hottest producer/ITB mixer of the year" wants to do a session and you realize that even an HD3 is not enough is the day you realize why the hell would anyone do LE to begin with.

this is very true. i have an HD system and LE at home. i guess we don't really know what the op is trying to do. my impression from the looks of his site and the posts so far was that it is a guy just trying to get better sounding results out of his setup for his own personal projects. not have "x" mixer or "x" producer come in and work in his room. although that may be a long term goal for him. i think from looking at his gear list that the money could be better spent on other things if looking to get better SOUNDING mixes than an HD system at this point.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by dhiltonlittle

this is very true. i have an HD system and LE at home. i guess we don't really know what the op is trying to do. my impression from the looks of his site and the posts so far was that it is a guy just trying to get better sounding results out of his setup for his own personal projects. not have "x" mixer or "x" producer come in and work in his room. although that may be a long term goal for him. i think from looking at his gear list that the money could be better spent on other things if looking to get better SOUNDING mixes than an HD system at this point.

Yeah i gathered but in his website it says its a public studio open to the public. If you are running a studio as a business you have to think past the immediate. If your goal is to keep booking clients at $25-$35 pr/hr than the High End forumn is not the place you probably want to be. If your goal is to book the best clients who undertstand and want to pay for a studio with the necessary tools(which a full blown HD system is) than its a no brainer. The goal should always be to get the best clients who will pay the most money. I mean if its not than someone should rethink if they really want the studio as a business to begin with.

[ddageek]

By all means go HD If you can but before you do remember Apple is most likely going to drop G5 support with snow leopard So I would first get a Mac Pro! otherwise your going to find your self with a n orphaned system!
Also lets not for get low latency monitoring on HD!

[elambo]

I wouldn't work in a pro studio that uses LE. It's a substantial gear shortcut and it would indicate that other shortcuts, which could be less obvious, must certainly be throughout the studio.

There's one aspect.

The other is the fact that HD sounds better internally, not in reference to converters, etc. The technical theories are all over this forum.

[superiorsound]

Well let me start off by saying thank you to all those who responded. I have worked with a couple big dogs and thats why I came here. I valid all your opinions and wanted some candor feedback. I do take my music very serious and its something I love to do. I plan on playing with the big boys! I wouldnt have sunk over 100k sofar into it if I didnt want to play with the big boys. THrill...I am open to the public....I plan on staying open thus far I am doing great!......

Fyi just some background. I am 26 been engineering for only 4-5 years never did any schooling learned on my own......from readying gearslutz and some on the job training at some bigger studios thats it. So when I humbly come to this high end forum trust me I mean business. I have worked with several very popular hip hop artist including bonecrusher(formerly of so so def) and universal records (jerimiah freed) so I wouldnt consider what i do a joke.

[Quint]

Originally Posted by superiorsound

Well let me start off by saying thank you to all those who responded. I have worked with a couple big dogs and thats why I came here. I valid all your opinions and wanted some candor feedback. I do take my music very serious and its something I love to do. I plan on playing with the big boys! I wouldnt have sunk over 100k sofar into it if I didnt want to play with the big boys. THrill...I am open to the public....I plan on staying open thus far I am doing great!......

Fyi just some background. I am 26 been engineering for only 4-5 years never did any schooling learned on my own......from readying gearslutz and some on the job training at some bigger studios thats it. So when I humbly come to this high end forum trust me I mean business. I have worked with several very popular hip hop artist including bonecrusher(formerly of so so def) and universal records (jerimiah freed) so I wouldnt consider what i do a joke.

Well if compatibility with other studios/engineers is going to be an issue, HD is definitely something to consider then.

[userofgear]

hello,

there seems to be a popular need to avoid the digidesign 192 interface. i do not see any real reason for it. there are disadvantages to using other interfaces that some people are not taking into account or, perhaps, even aware of.
when overdubbing, the placement in time of the audio is not accurate with third party devices in pro tools hd [or le].
the ability of the software to compensate for the hardware's a to d and d to a conversion delays is a significant feature of pro tools hd that does not exist in pro tools le. it only works when using digidesign interfaces. in the i/o setup window, see: "compensate for input delays after record pass", and "compensate for output delays after record pass".
trying to use "high-end" interfaces for tracking and overdubbing is not a good strategy. those types of converters generally have significantly more latency than the digi 192, because they typically rely on a lot of dsp for their various tricks and turns.
likewise, trying to use "high-end" interfaces with pro tools le is subject to the same issues.
logic audio has a feature that allows a "recording delay" parameter to be specified. however, it is in milleseconds, and not sample accurate.
it appears that pro tools hd, using a digidesign interface, may be the only solution that handles converter delays accurately, and that goes to the timing and feel of the music, which is more important than tiny differences in converter quality.
overall, it appears that a lot of people dislike the digidesign converters because it is trendy to talk that way.
in their defense, they are using what is arguably the best chip available, and they have it working with a good clock, and in an array, and with real good latency figures, and they have the hd system designed to correct for what little latency there is.
on the other hand, the fact that digidesign does not allow a user-definable setting to accomodate third-party interfaces would appear to be bad business ethics.

userofgear

[kittonian]

Originally Posted by userofgear

hello,

there seems to be a popular need to avoid the digidesign 192 interface. i do not see any real reason for it. there are disadvantages to using other interfaces that some people are not taking into account or, perhaps, even aware of.
when overdubbing, the placement in time of the audio is not accurate with third party devices in pro tools hd [or le].
the ability of the software to compensate for the hardware's a to d and d to a conversion delays is a significant feature of pro tools hd that does not exist in pro tools le. it only works when using digidesign interfaces. in the i/o setup window, see: "compensate for input delays after record pass", and "compensate for output delays after record pass".
trying to use "high-end" interfaces for tracking and overdubbing is not a good strategy. those types of converters generally have significantly more latency than the digi 192, because they typically rely on a lot of dsp for their various tricks and turns.
likewise, trying to use "high-end" interfaces with pro tools le is subject to the same issues.
logic audio has a feature that allows a "recording delay" parameter to be specified. however, it is in milleseconds, and not sample accurate.
it appears that pro tools hd, using a digidesign interface, may be the only solution that handles converter delays accurately, and that goes to the timing and feel of the music, which is more important than tiny differences in converter quality.
overall, it appears that a lot of people dislike the digidesign converters because it is trendy to talk that way.
in their defense, they are using what is arguably the best chip available, and they have it working with a good clock, and in an array, and with real good latency figures, and they have the hd system designed to correct for what little latency there is.
on the other hand, the fact that digidesign does not allow a user-definable setting to accomodate third-party interfaces would appear to be bad business ethics.

userofgear

It has nothing to with "trendy" it has to do with sound superiority. There's nothing wrong with the Digi 192, but being an 8+ year old design, conversion has come leaps and bounds since then.

Also, you are correct with regards to the limitations of most every 3rd party interface, but the Lynx Aurora16 with the LT-HD card does everything that the 192 does and provides a lot more i/o with superior sound quality. It's also sample and port accurate to the 192 which means it integrates flawlessly with PT|HD. No other 3rd party converter does this, at least at this time.

[sevendaysoff]

Originally Posted by userofgear

hello,

there seems to be a popular need to avoid the digidesign 192 interface. i do not see any real reason for it. there are disadvantages to using other interfaces that some people are not taking into account or, perhaps, even aware of.
when overdubbing, the placement in time of the audio is not accurate with third party devices in pro tools hd [or le].
the ability of the software to compensate for the hardware's a to d and d to a conversion delays is a significant feature of pro tools hd that does not exist in pro tools le. it only works when using digidesign interfaces. in the i/o setup window, see: "compensate for input delays after record pass", and "compensate for output delays after record pass".
trying to use "high-end" interfaces for tracking and overdubbing is not a good strategy. those types of converters generally have significantly more latency than the digi 192, because they typically rely on a lot of dsp for their various tricks and turns.
likewise, trying to use "high-end" interfaces with pro tools le is subject to the same issues.
logic audio has a feature that allows a "recording delay" parameter to be specified. however, it is in milleseconds, and not sample accurate.
it appears that pro tools hd, using a digidesign interface, may be the only solution that handles converter delays accurately, and that goes to the timing and feel of the music, which is more important than tiny differences in converter quality.
overall, it appears that a lot of people dislike the digidesign converters because it is trendy to talk that way.
in their defense, they are using what is arguably the best chip available, and they have it working with a good clock, and in an array, and with real good latency figures, and they have the hd system designed to correct for what little latency there is.
on the other hand, the fact that digidesign does not allow a user-definable setting to accommodate third-party interfaces would appear to be bad business ethics.

userofgear

i actually like the 192. i think once you reach the quality of such converters differences are really minimal, especially for musical program that is going to be cut down to 44.1/16 anyways.

i prefer lynx primarily for the value, second factor was the quality. i believe the digi192, apogee adx and lynx aurora are all on the same level. it just so happened that i lucked out and preferred the quality of the lynx over these other 2 units anyways. and i still saved a decent amount of money over the apogee stuff.

to the op: I understand you have a budget but I would use some of that money towards other things rather than going full HD3, especially if you say you're getting alogn fine with a MP toolkit and 002. Get a nice summing box with an HD2 setup and some lynx converters or whichever your tastes prefer. use the rest of the budget to get some TDM plugs, you'll be fine. my .02 !