Recording kick drum which Pres/comps?

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Just wondering what the hot setup is for recording kick drum for rock?
I have a ton of mics and am planning on using a d112 inside the kick and a soundelux195 or a shure ksm32 outside up close or further back in a tunnel.
I did a search on here about tecniques folks used for recording kick but haven't found as much about pres or comps used with these mics, whats your favorite setup for rock?
Thanks
daniel

[Dave Martin]

Remember that all opinions are just that - opinions. For example, I really dislike the D-112 on kick; I'll use either a Beta 52 or an RE-20. Recently, I've been using a UA 2108 for a pre; before that, a Daking. I use the Daking EQ and comp with the 2108.

[Musiclab]

I tend to use either a D12e or a Beyer M88. I agree with Dave,I don't care for the D112, it sounds too boxy for me. I try to not multi mike individual drums so much. The room mics and overheads will get me plenty of gank. My favorite pre for kick is a focusrite ISA 110. I might eq the kick a little in the recording but I try to avoid it if I can. generally I prefer to eq in the mix rather than recording.I don't compress the kick to tape, I prefer to compress it in the mix. I usually use a distressor. I also used 421's and Re-20's and liked them.

[FOURTHTUNZ]

thanks guys, more mics to try! The last band I recorded I used the d112, vipre and an 1176 no eq at tracking or multing at mix time.
I wished I had either backed the mic off a little for a little more low end or used an outside mic. I did have enough at mix time but I like to try to get it up front without eq or multing if I can.
I have an enough tracks so I thought this time I would try one outside of the kick. I had a d12e but sold it, didn't seem to have alot of high end for the one mic thing, with metal, ya know, click and ballsrollz
I'm using my 421's on toms and haven't tried the shure, beyer or the re-20, more to buy!
All ideas welcome
daniel

[sonic dogg]

For metal i used to use a sennheiser m409 right in on the head and an 87 out in front about two feet...i recently heard a daking pre for drums and was very impressed...

[groundcontrol]

I vary the "inside" mic a bit depending on the BD to be recorded and the studio I'm at. I've had good luck with an AKG D222 (great unsung mic!), D20 (old classic!), Beyer M88 (great mic too!), EV RE-20 (another great multi-purpose mic!) and recently the EV-868 BD mic. And of course the old standby, the MD421.
I can't stand the dfegadD112, what a piece! fuuck
(BTW, has anybody tried the new Audio-Technica dual element BD mic?)

Outside, I'll invariably have a fet47 or R-121. (Sometime you don't need an outside mic though...)

Generally both mic will go to 1066's or 1073's.


One point of interest is the fact that I'll generally try not to use the same mic on the BD as the bass amp for better separation. So if I go for a fat and deep kick with a lot of the sound coming from, say, a 47, I'll try to go for a punchier, tighter bass amp sound and will likely use an RE-20 (works well with an SVT and 10" speakers). So I'll use something else inside the kick. Some songs demand the reverse approach, so I might use a fet47 on the amp (works well with a B15, sometimes with something else added to capture the "point" of the sound) and something more midish + the Royer in front for the kick.

Often times I don't use comps on the way in. If the drummer/bass drum needs it, I'll use some but mostly very lightly. Again depending on what's needed and what's available, it will be a Distressor, LA-2A, 1176, 160VU.

I usually eq the kick mics a little bit on the way in (especially if there is a Pultec or derivative available!) and, when going to digital, like to put a Fatso at the end of the chain for yet some more distortion and a little transient softening when the BD is hit hard.

Recording drums IS fun!!!

[Steamy Williams]

I agree about the D112, I don't like it on Kick. Sometimes it is ok in combination with another mic on a bass cab. I find kick is the hardest to drum to get right, but I do more dancey stuff were the kick needs to be bigger than it does in rock. I generally like to put something nice and valvey like a Rode Classic, Neaumann M149 or U47 about a foot away from the Kick. I also have an SM58 near where the pedal hits the skin on the other side of the kick. Nothing actually goes inside the drum. Then with the faders I have one control for the boom (the valve/condensor) and one for the click (SM58). This works pretty well for me. The rest of the mics are:

C414 x 2: overhead left/right
SM58: mono overhead (heavily compressed)
SM57 x 2: snare top/bottom
Other Condensor: hihat or ride
There is no close micing for toms which I find always sounds crap.

I don't eq or compress when tracking, unless its vocals or bass. Mic pres would either be my Soundcraft Ghost or whatever was in the commercial studio I was using at the time. Most of my compression comes from a Cranesong STC-8 as thats my only outboard compressor. Sounds great on kick though. Eq at mix would be any plug-in (Ren EQ, D2, etc) or the Ghost again. However, I'd love to get a CLM Dynamics Expounder which has dynamic eq, that would be amazing for kick.

[Jules]

Groundcontrol said -

"sometimes with something else added to capture the "point" of the sound) and something more midish + the Royer in front for the kick.

Often times I don't use comps on the way in. If the drummer/bass drum needs it, I'll use some but mostly very lightly. Again depending on what's needed and what's available, it will be a Distressor, LA-2A, 1176, 160VU.

I usually eq the kick mics a little bit on the way in (especially if there is a Pultec or derivative available!) and, when going to digital, like to put a Fatso at the end of the chain for yet some more distortion and a little transient softening when the BD is hit hard."

***********************

For Pro Tools / DAW recording, I agree totally!

[robp]

It all depends on the drum, drummer, and project. I've had sucess with EV RE-20, Rode NTV, Brauner Phantom C , Royer 121 .... usally thru Neve 1272 or API 312. I don't usually track with a compressor, if I do, its a Telefunken U373a or API 2500. The D-112 is not usally my first choice on kick, but in it's defense, I did get a brillant sound out of one thru a Telefunken V672 on a recent rock session. Huge and open, definately not boxy.


robp
www.witchdoctorrecording.com

[Jay Kahrs]

My first choice for inside mics are usually a 421 or Beta 52, sometimes aimed at the corner where the head meets the shell. If neither one of those is working the D112 might be another trick to pull out but generally it doesn't work well for me on kick.

Outside mics are either a 414B/ULS in figure 8 or a 47Fet or similar mic. On a budget the AT4047 works well. Placement on that mic totally varies. Could be anywhere from 6-8" off the front head to about 5-6 feet back.

Pres vary a bit. Usually OSA, Daking or a Neve on the inside, outside is Neve or Daking with some EQ on it. And yes, I'll EQ a bit to tape, I also compress the outside mic all the time and sometimes the inside, that depends on how consistant the player is.

I think tuning is much more important though. How do you prefer to have the bass drum tuned?

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
My first choice for inside mics are usually a 421 or Beta 52, sometimes aimed at the corner where the head meets the shell. If neither one of those is working the D112 might be another trick to pull out but generally it doesn't work well for me on kick.

Outside mics are either a 414B/ULS in figure 8 or a 47Fet or similar mic. On a budget the AT4047 works well. Placement on that mic totally varies. Could be anywhere from 6-8" off the front head to about 5-6 feet back.

Pres vary a bit. Usually OSA, Daking or a Neve on the inside, outside is Neve or Daking with some EQ on it. And yes, I'll EQ a bit to tape, I also compress the outside mic all the time and sometimes the inside, that depends on how consistant the player is.

I think tuning is much more important though. How do you prefer to have the bass drum tuned?

Jay I have the osa but no neves
Bands usually use my kit, so I can tweak to my satisfaction, I find the kick a bitter harder to tune myself though, cause it depends alot on the drummers foot(and sometimes their beater).
I play the kit alittle myself so I think that helps.
I'm not one to tune to a note or that kind of thing, I use drum tension thingy to get an even tension on the beater head, and thats usually tuned tighter than the front head for response. Also depends on the tempo. I like the pillow thing for rock but I'd like to have a couple different kick drums like I do snare drums so I wouldn't have to take all the lugs off to get rid of the pillow
I'm just starting to get enough pres and mics to experiment a little, thanks for the help

daniel

[Bruce Keen]

I've found that the tone of a closed Kick drum is much more defined. I've had good results with a D12 beater side and 47 fet on front head. I also got a very nice low end from a Sony C800 about 30cm center on the front. I think it's nice to take the time to get the outside mic at the right distance so the low end doesn't need EQ or rolloff. Since we're talking about pres I ran into trouble with a pair of 1073 that were flaky. I was getting really weird distortion on the impact but very short. Those two have gone to maintenance. I've found that the UA2108 gives a slight edge to the kick that is nice. I'm not very good at deciding how much attack I need when I'm tracking and I usually fine tune the amount of D12 (421 is cool too) right up till the end of the mix. Having a Massive Passive is so cool to eq the two mics so they really blend, but phase is more important. I admire people who can put up a single kick mic and say that's it. I think it has to do with confidence. Another important discovery this year was goat skins. I just love that tone, the round low end that you can tune low but still get the impact with. As for comps I leave them out. Don't you just hate it when a drummer really feels a piece of music and you end up with thonk thonk stomping all the way through. I mean drums are your most dynamic instrument, they put life in your track. If the drummer isn't consitent or musical that's a different matter. I've also found that the best drums I've done are those I didn't eq or comp and then treated the lot as a stereo pair. Squashing each mic to death never made drums sound full and open or big. A good analog tape does all that squashing so beautifully, even the Fatso can't touch that, but then I have grown to like the definition of attack on digital also. I can't wait to try the 121 ribbon. I'm tracking drums in 2 days and I'll get a chance to try my Slam on Kick. I can't imagine it being bad. I'll let you know even if nobody wants to, just for an extra dose of slutiness. All in all I guess that it's more important to experiment, have a tape op move mics around and listen for yourself because it's more interesting to perfect a technique you like than just copy somebody else's and then adapt that technique to the music style and drummer. I also think that the tuning, the skins and mic placement are so much more important than the pre or the comp. Also it helps to get the drummer himself involved in his sound and point out which mic is doing what as well as how his drums fit into the track without processing.

enough for now

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by FOURTHTUNZ
Jay I have the osa but no neves

Which model of OSA, they all sound completely different? If it's the Lundahl model, it has the same low end power of something like a Great River NV or Brent Averill 1272, different top and mid though.

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by NathanEldred
Which model of OSA, they all sound completely different? If it's the Lundahl model, it has the same low end power of something like a Great River NV or Brent Averill 1272, different top and mid though.

I'm borrowing 4 different types right now, I can't make up my mind which ones I like the best! I'd like 2 or 3 of each!
What a slut huh
daniel

[Tubelover]

Originally posted by Musiclab
... My favorite pre for kick is a focusrite ISA 110...

The original or the re-issue ?

I'm eyeing the re-issue but holding out until someone tells me it's the real deal.

[Jay Kahrs]

I've heard that the ISA110 reissue isn't being made anymore. Bummer. I borrowed one for a week before I bought my Dakings and I liked it a lot.

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Originally posted by Bruce KEEN
A good analog tape does all that squashing so beautifully, even the Fatso can't touch that, but then I have grown to like the definition of attack on digital also. I can't wait to try the 121 ribbon. I'm tracking drums in 2 days and I'll get a chance to try my Slam on Kick. I can't imagine it being bad. I'll let you know even if nobody wants to, just for an extra dose of slutiness.
enough for now

Bruce thanks for the great comments! I'll be interested in hearing what you think of the slam on kick and more info about the fatso, especially how it sounds in protools or other digital stuff.
thanks
daniel

[adam_w]

Well, despite the lack of D112 fans here tonight, I like the D112 right at the outer rim into Neve 1064 channel with minor EQ & no compressor on the way in. I also find tuning the kick drum helps - people expect stuffing a load of crap in a kick drum to do the job, but they are just like a snare, really and need a little attention !

I find the API stuff too middy, but punchy... think "bok" - you NEED to EQ that sucka. The telefunken and DW fearn stuff can be good. Tracked a kit with ALL fearn once...oh god..

[chap]

I agree with the idea that you should try anything.
My general get started (for pop/folk/rock) approach is: RE 20 to Focusrite 215 (the real ones) to a Vari Mu or Distressor if needed. The eq's in the Blue 215's love drums.
Sometimes I'll add either a Royer or an M149 further out from the RE 20 if ambient sound is needed.

[Jules]

Last weekend -

D112 inside - Neve 1073 mic pre / eq
Royer 121 - outside - Helios mic pre / eq (pop shield in front of it)

Blanket tunnel for the Royer outer mic

Sumed in a valve Pultec mono mixer -

into a DBX 160vu

Into a Fatso

Into Prism Dream ADA converter

[Bruce Keen]

Oh my. I just recorded a kick with the Slam. D12 batter side and 47 fet outside. The fet limiter on the d12 and the Opto with 100hz SC filter on the 47 fet made for an interesting combination. The low end in these preamps is amazing and the attack is really pure. The converter is cool too. This mic pre is not transparent but it's character is tight and open. The fearn does that in a similar way. It seems to me and I am in no way an expert that I like what happens to the transients in these two mic pres. I have had really nice results tracking through an API desk with no eq at all but I was tracking to a 16trk 2" Sculley which impacted a very particular "fat" sound whan overdriven. I really feel that analog tape is really where the drums in general are at home. Digital is nice but the "coloration" of tape is really nice on transients. I'd say that the Fatso gets you halfway there. It really does help. But it's no tape. I have heard a great kick recorded with Telefunken V72s and also through a really old neve desk (no idea which model).
It's all valid really and it should be said that one should really try and check as many as possible and make notes during sessions to be able to remember 6 months afterwards why that particular sound was cool. But again 70% of your sound is the drum itself. Tuning, heads, shell, beater, drummer,decay, attack. There's no point in having the best pre and mikes if the source isn't grooving with the bass.

[Nutmeg II.]

Had good results using old AKG 414 (silver body) or AKG 414TLII at figur8 close to the batterheads rim inside the drum.
Add a SM56/58 or what ever in the hole of the front head.
Use a dbx160 for a little more bite on the dynamic mic.

[jon]

I pay a lot of attention to the sound of bass drum when tracking.

I quite like the ATM25...since getting one a couple years back, it has replaced the RE20 as my main mic, often seconded by a 421 inside as well, plus sometimes a phase-reversed 414ULS by the drummer's foot for click+sub bass and/or a U47 outside.

Neve 1073 pre, EQ depends on context, no comp or just a slight touch of SSL J channel dynamics or 160VU to bring up the punch of the attack.

[Daniel]

Originally posted by Jules
Last weekend -

Into Prism Dream ADA converter

Hey guys let me know what you think about my web designer for my new site?

It has a whole Pro Tools Message Board that includes info on the recording of the current supergroup.

Kick drum setup already posted!

Thanx everybody,
http://www.sevenxseventy.com
Click on the BIG question mark for the tools board.

Sorry for the Spam, let me know if it's ok so far?

Dan Spitz

[FOURTHTUNZ]

Guys thanks for the good stuff
Making me question my m.o. which is why I love this place!
I'm doing some piano sessions right now, which are fun but I can't wait to apply some of your ideas. I just got a phoenix pre for the piano sessions, I'd like to try it on kick and overheads.
I'd also like to try something other than the d112 inside, when I get a chance. Guess I'll have to rob one of the 421's from the toms Thanks
daniel

ps, what is it about the 1073? Isn't that kind of dark sounding on the kick? I don't have one yet, I have a vintech 1272 that I've got to try on kick.....

[Jay Kahrs]

When you try the Vintech on kick experiment with overdriving it a bit. Sometimes it sounds great, sometimes it sounds really bad. Also, I almost always have to EQ the kick so have a decent EQ handy.

[Etnier]

I"m a litte surpised the Audix D6 hasn't made it into this discussion so far. I really like it. I had a D112 for about a year and didn't like it at all. RE-20 remains on-hand, but the D6 is first choice now....

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by Etnier
I"m a litte surpised the Audix D6 hasn't made it into this discussion so far. I really like it. I had a D112 for about a year and didn't like it at all. RE-20 remains on-hand, but the D6 is first choice now....

I just got one for an evaluation - it worked well on the drummer I used it with, but that wasn't a 'normal' drum session. I'm looking forward to trying it with one of my rock drummers.

[mixer]

i also use a 421 going thru a neve or api...also like the 441,, try to not use compression during the tracking phaze..rather do it later when i am sculpting the sound of the entire kit...

[SonsofJorel]

For a few sessions I've ran the kick and snare into a P.A. set up behind the kit (mics split into console and P.A.) to get a bit bigger of a sound (421 in kick and 57 on snare) The bleed through the tom and overheads can get ya a little more, But, there's a lot of variables to that. and the bottom line is if the kit ain't tuned "properly" then no matter what it's going to be a trainwreck!