Purple MC77 users?
BIG_MYDUS
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#1
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Purple MC77 users?

Hi guys,

Been getting into the MC77's we have recently bought. Love 'em but my problem is, compared to the 1176's (black or silver) i've used the input pot has to be set real low, around 7-8 o'clock. Are they all like this or is there input gain calibration i need to do? Just seems strange for the input gain to be next to nothing.

Thanx

Mike
#2
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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When I bought mine a 1 1/2 years ago I was wondering the same thing. I was getting all sort of gain reduction but didn't think the input was hot enough for it to happen. I called Andrew and he explained that it's around 9:00. What really screwed me up was the input meter was reading very low. Thought I had a bad unit. There is a little mention in the manual that the input meter doesn't always read accurate depending on the load. Should be a bigger mention in CAPS and BOLD. Having a input meter that isn't accurate makes it worse than not havng one at all. Haven't used the input meter since. It's useless. Love my MC77 though. I have 3 in the studio at the moment and they really sound great. Good compliment with the orig blackie and the 2 UA reissues I have.
#3
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Original 1176LN's had no input metering capability... frankly, I don't know why Andrew added it and frankly I've never used it. Original 1176LN's were also meant for "professional" installations which were generally terminated at 600 ohms... these days levels and input impedances are 2/3rd's a crap shoot.

It wasn't until I went back and used my analog deck for a session that I realized how much hotter I was printing than I used to print when I used tape. Since that time I have backed off the levels at which I print... the audio has gotten FAR more open and I'm taxing my outboard gear [and desk] far less.

Terry Manning had a quote I read once... "yellow is the new red"... once I adopted that policy I found the input attenuator on my MC-77 at 10 o'clock [where it should be] and my output knob around 2 o'clock [where it should be] and all has been right with the world ever since.

Peace.
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23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Original 1176LN's had no input metering capability... frankly, I don't know why Andrew added it and frankly I've never used it. Original 1176LN's were also meant for "professional" installations which were generally terminated at 600 ohms... these days levels and input impedances are 2/3rd's a crap shoot.

It wasn't until I went back and used my analog deck for a session that I realized how much hotter I was printing than I used to print when I used tape. Since that time I have backed off the levels at which I print... the audio has gotten FAR more open and I'm taxing my outboard gear [and desk] far less.

Terry Manning had a quote I read once... "yellow is the new red"... once I adopted that policy I found the input attenuator on my MC-77 at 10 o'clock [where it should be] and my output knob around 2 o'clock [where it should be] and all has been right with the world ever since.

Peace.
this man speaks the stone cold truth. and yellow is the new red... truer words never spoken...
#5
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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My MC77 runs best at 10 O'clock and 2 O'clock just as Fletcher indicated.
BIG_MYDUS
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#6
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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thanks guys. at least i know they aren't faulty thumbsup
#7
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Well that's funny since Andrew told me that the standard 1176 10:00 didn't apply and that 9:00 was the MC77s equivalent of 10:00. That's what I've found running a calibrated tone thru it.
#8
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Original 1176LN's had no input metering capability... frankly, I don't know why Andrew added it and frankly I've never used it. Original 1176LN's were also meant for "professional" installations which were generally terminated at 600 ohms... these days levels and input impedances are 2/3rd's a crap shoot.

It wasn't until I went back and used my analog deck for a session that I realized how much hotter I was printing than I used to print when I used tape. Since that time I have backed off the levels at which I print... the audio has gotten FAR more open and I'm taxing my outboard gear [and desk] far less.

Terry Manning had a quote I read once... "yellow is the new red"... once I adopted that policy I found the input attenuator on my MC-77 at 10 o'clock [where it should be] and my output knob around 2 o'clock [where it should be] and all has been right with the world ever since.

Peace.
could NOT have said it better. i have experienced the EXACT same thing.

LOVE the purple 76/77's. anxious to check out the new action comps.

best,

jchristopherhughes
#9
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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I just don't look at the meter. I've known some guys to put a piece of tape over it.

Listen...

Love my Purple.
#10
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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It's not about looking at the meter, it's about hearing more gain reduction than you expect for the settings you have. That was the issue.
#11
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Quote:
I've known some guys to put a piece of tape over it.
That, to me, is silly. Anyone who doesn't use all the tools they have available is walking on one leg. There's absolutely nothing wrong with using both your ears and eyes. They can work at the same time, or in close time proximity to each other. I've never understood this attitude.
#12
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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I've just bought one and found that it behaves much as I would expect. But then I discovered the evils of hot tracking long ago...he said smugly.

#13
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Hey Mike, hope you're good.

10-2 o'clock here via the Audix console insert. If you wanna A-B please pop over.

all the best

Andy
#14
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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I tried to explain to my buddy (a full sail student) the problems with recording hot as possible (as they're taught to do so) get magnified when running outboard gear or mixing out of the box, or even with plugins and arguably the summing ITB. His response was "that makes sense if you're doing jazz or something, but not rock"

#15
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyd View Post
It's not about looking at the meter, it's about hearing more gain reduction than you expect for the settings you have. That was the issue.
That's a function of "the eye generation"... the "10-2" thing was always just a rough starting point from which you tweezed by ear. I've had my input attenuator at "2" and my output at "10" on a bunch of occassions... my input at 9 and the output at 3 on a bunch of occasions [with both the MC-77 & the 1176LN]... but for the most part the starting point is "10 & 2"... which is rarely ever the end point.

Peace.
#16
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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"10" & "2" Just like driving...

Keep your eyes on the road and your hands upon the wheel (insert a good Jim Morrison growl)

I've found the MC77/1176 a fairly easy thing to tweak to taste, these are good starting points, but there's not really too far you can go wrong.

But hey, experimentation leads us to things like the Dr. Pepper setting, right?

What if I... ? Try it.

-andrews
#17
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundsundergroun View Post
I tried to explain to my buddy (a full sail student) the problems with recording hot as possible (as they're taught to do so) get magnified when running outboard gear or mixing out of the box, or even with plugins and arguably the summing ITB. His response was "that makes sense if you're doing jazz or something, but not rock"


It's just ridiculous. Apart from anything else there's no logic to the statement. The jazz would be arguably worse affected by signal to noise issues whereas the rock would completely mask any noise. You should record at the right level for the pre whatever that is and then make sure that you have adequate headroom. Whoever came up with the -18 calibration level was not an idiot. It seeems to work very well. It's always depressing when you hear this stuff being propagated by academic institutions.
#18
23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack ruston View Post
it's just ridiculous. Apart from anything else there's no logic to the statement. The jazz would be arguably worse affected by signal to noise issues whereas the rock would completely mask any noise.
"but dude, it's gotta be loud so it can rock!!!!"
#19
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Quote:
That's a function of "the eye generation"... the "10-2" thing was always just a rough starting point from which you tweezed by ear.
What generation would that be? For as long as I can remember the 10/2:00 has been kicking around and I'm 48. I always felt that the setting evolved out of the fact that if you send +4 input into those settings it yields that thing we all love.
I don't preset any of my gear but if I'm going for that vibe it's where I'll start.
Any one who thinks you can glue your knobs to one setting is missing out on how much fun you can have with a piece of gear.
#20
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Dang, then that must be my problem <smacks forehead> 8-)

I read that you should ALWAYS glue the knobs on every new piece of equipment, so I've been doing that. Just goes to show you can't believe what you read on the internet. I'm going to found the No Glued Knobs Foundation to help other people like myself, and maybe do some TV specials where people can talk about how ungluing the knobs on their equipment changed their lives and break down and cry and whatnot. Is Sally Struthers still available?
#21
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Original 1176LN's had no input metering capability... frankly, I don't know why Andrew added it and frankly I've never used it. Original 1176LN's were also meant for "professional" installations which were generally terminated at 600 ohms... these days levels and input impedances are 2/3rd's a crap shoot.

It wasn't until I went back and used my analog deck for a session that I realized how much hotter I was printing than I used to print when I used tape. Since that time I have backed off the levels at which I print... the audio has gotten FAR more open and I'm taxing my outboard gear [and desk] far less.

Terry Manning had a quote I read once... "yellow is the new red"... once I adopted that policy I found the input attenuator on my MC-77 at 10 o'clock [where it should be] and my output knob around 2 o'clock [where it should be] and all has been right with the world ever since.

Peace.
I like this thread; validation, I'm not alone...

It's a funny thing... My console (Trident Series70) is set at 600 ohm for outboard, and my MC77 likes it...

I track lower on my RADAR (at analog levels in digital hovering around -12 -14 sometimes peaking at -6) and mixes are more open on my console, hmm.. things are matched....

It's funny when people cram as much as they can into digital and on playback through their analog gear have not headroom left and wonder why...
BIG_MYDUS
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#22
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolz View Post
Hey Mike, hope you're good.

10-2 o'clock here via the Audix console insert. If you wanna A-B please pop over.

all the best

Andy
Hey Andy,

Not bad here just living lol, when we get some downtime i will try and do that.
Hope all is good.
#23
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellyd View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
That's a function of "the eye generation"... the "10-2" thing was always just a rough starting point from which you tweezed by ear.
What generation would that be?
That would be the generation that stares at computer monitors and looks at wave forms and will every now and then make an audio determination by the "look" of the waveform. FWIW, I'm 47 on the cusp of 48... we ain't that far apart.

The recording as loud as you can thing with digital started with the 16 bit recorders... SONY 3324's, Mitsubishi X-850's, etc. With a 16 bit word length the resolution of the audio suffers until you use up damn near every bit of word length... hence getting every channel up to the top of the meter was the closest way to get audio to sound like audio from those machines.

With the word length of 24 bit recorders this practice is far less crucial so you can indeed give the audio a hell of a lot more 'breathing room' and still get a clear recording... I reckon the guys that teach at 'Full Pail' never got the memo.

Peace.
#24
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Fletcher I agree esp with all this info on the internet that there's a certain preset mentality both with plugins and analog gear.
#25
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Dr. Pepper

Ummmmmm.....sorry guys

The Dr. Pepper 10 and 2 thing only relates to attack and release settings... not input and output gain.

You can adjust the input and output stages to get the right gain staging/compression you need and still get the tone from the dial's '3' attack, '5' release' and 4:1 ratio.

Cheers,
Chad
#26
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyork View Post
Ummmmmm.....sorry guys

The Dr. Pepper 10 and 2 thing only relates to attack and release settings... not input and output gain.

You can adjust the input and output stages to get the right gain staging/compression you need and still get the tone from the dial's '3' attack, '5' release' and 4:1 ratio.

Cheers,
Chad
Sorry Chad, but 10 and 2 have only been referenced as a starting points with which typical compression can be achieved. The point of the thread was to illustrate that 10 (or even 7, as the initial post reported) is a bit low given the fact that it has so much more gain available. I hope to god that 1176 users know about the tone shaping ability of the attack and release.
#27
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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On an MC-77 or 1176LN my starting attack and release times are 3 o'clock... tweeze to taste [YMWV].

The "10-2" for the I/O and the "3 o'clock" on the attack and release are merely starting points... rarely, if ever, end points.

Peace.
#28
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
  #28
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Agreed with many of the above.

When I first got my first 77 I was a little perplexed by the I/O metering. I wasn't overly concerned as I've always set these things by ear anyway but it was slightly weird not to see what I was apparently hearing. Once I figured out it was a quirk of the unit and hearing really is the best policy - still - I found myself, somewhat magically, at the 10 and 2 setting for 90% of my 77 use. Mine is almost always on electric bass on a rock mix, hardware inserted in N4 (The Matrix is on the way!) and those I/O settings along with A/R settings of about 12 - 3 o'clock are pretty much ear candy for bass. Tweak the release for aggression and the attack for punch and you're off.

It also makes a killer machine for rock vocals!

<GM>
#29
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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My point was that the thread seemed to have a bunch of people chiming in that 10 and 2 1176 setting was related to I/O. Which it isn't. It is 10 o'clock attack (or 3 on the dial) and 2 o'clock release (or 5 on the dial )

Seems a little weird to have a "standard" input/threshold setting when tracks coming off the mtr or board are going to have different signal strength depending on what or how it was tracked...

Likewise aren't you going to want to adjust the output makeup gain relative to the amount of compression you're applying??

To me this is the same thing as saying you have a favourite threshold setting.

but hey, whatever floats your boat. thumbsup

Chad
#30
24th July 2008
Old 24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Original 1176LN's had no input metering capability... frankly, I don't know why Andrew added it and frankly I've never used it. Original 1176LN's were also meant for "professional" installations which were generally terminated at 600 ohms... these days levels and input impedances are 2/3rd's a crap shoot.

It wasn't until I went back and used my analog deck for a session that I realized how much hotter I was printing than I used to print when I used tape. Since that time I have backed off the levels at which I print... the audio has gotten FAR more open and I'm taxing my outboard gear [and desk] far less.

Terry Manning had a quote I read once... "yellow is the new red"... once I adopted that policy I found the input attenuator on my MC-77 at 10 o'clock [where it should be] and my output knob around 2 o'clock [where it should be] and all has been right with the world ever since.

Peace.
I will never forget the first time I mixed tracks off of a pro tools rig rather than tape into an SSL desk. My first thought, was this sounds like shit. I looked at the levels of the audio, and the audio was so much hotter than what I was used to dealing with. I turned down the feed to the desk, and I was back in familiar territory. That was a note to self moment.
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