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A Mic with the high-end rasp of an ELAM 251 and the velvet mids of the U47?
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MrVelvet
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23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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A Mic with the high-end rasp of an ELAM 251 and the velvet mids of the U47?

Love the high-end "rasp" of the ELAM and would love to have a U47-style mic that has this kind of high end, combined with the smoothness in the mids.

While it may sound a little opposed at first, I think this two qualities could indeed go well together. Is there any mic out there in that vein?
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23rd July 2008
Old 23rd July 2008
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I wouldn't consider a real Ela M 251 to have a ton of top end...The ones I've used have been fantastic in the midrange - just something about that midrange that just works. C12's seem a little more scooped than the 251's - maybe more highs and lows - but the 251 is pretty much the perfect mic if you ask me.
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23rd July 2008
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Hey John,

thanks! Yeah, it's really hard to describe what I mean - I'm definitely not looking for a "scooped" thing. To me, the 251 already is a bit too much scooped in the mids compared to a U47. And the U47 doesn't have the "rasp" of the ELAM going on... Like I said, it's hard to describe, just based on my personal opinion and experience.

One good example for everyone to hear might be two Mark Knopfler records: The vocals of the title track of "The Ragpicker's Dream" (according to Chuck Ainlay, the vocals were cut through an old ELAM 251 and and a pretty neutral MSS-10) and pretty much any vocal on his latest record, "Kill To Get Crimson", captured with an old U47.

I think you can hear the rasp clearly on the ELAM while being pretty "clear" in the mids, while the U47 stuff has that velvet magic in the mids but not that raspy top end. This equals my personal experiences pretty good.
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23rd July 2008
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The "rasp" comes from Knopfler... not the mic.
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23rd July 2008
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I dunno, Jonkenn. 251s are very open on top. Way brighter than a U47. As somebody recently commented, "It's a classy brightness." But it is definitely a bright mic, which is the hallmark of the CK12 capsule.
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23rd July 2008
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Sorry to disagree JJ... but I must. I've found good 251's to sound kinda closed down on the top and good 47's to have a really open 'sparkly' [think 13k-ish range] top... obviously our mileage has differed.

Peace.
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23rd July 2008
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Fletcher, if you look at a response graph for a 251, the presence peak is +5dB at 10+ kHz! That is hardly "closed down" on top. If that's what you're hearing, something is definitely wrong.

The really "bright" U47s that I have found, tend to be ones with old M7s that have stiffened. I do not find K47 equipped U47s to be anywhere near as bright as a C12 or 251.

The U47 has a mid range presence peak, in addition to one at around 10kHz, not found in the 251. But as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure you can ask Allen Sides to confirm this, any 251 that does not sparkle on top is not working right. And if you look at the Neumann documentation, the 47 top bump is at 10kHz, with the shelf hitting 0dB around 12kHz, IIRC.
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23rd July 2008
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My bad... I'll start recording response graphs instead of music... but seeing as you're into "response graphs" where do the two mics roll off on the top? Is that +5 @ 10k caused by the phase shift associated with a lower top end roll off or is it a genuine presence peak? ... which would give one set of results in application and another set of results in test measurements [as test equipment can't make differentiations the human ear can make].

The "air" I'm talking about in a 47 comes from the standing wave in the head grill assembly... not from the capsule.
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23rd July 2008
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Fletcher, I'm going to have to disagree. First off, response graphs are very reliable in terms of reflecting what we are hearing. If you look at the response graph of what happens when you change polar patterns, for instance, it corresponds EXACTLY to what you hear.

Secondly, the difference in capsules is MUCH larger than the difference in grill baskets. In contrast to the frequency response difference between a K47 and a CK12, the difference between the standing wave found in a 251 basket and a 47 basket negligible, at best.
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23rd July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
the difference between the standing wave found in a 251 basket and a 47 basket negligible, at best.

Negatory good buddy... let's just agree to disagree and be done with it... or better yet... you're right [or you're right until you do some other homework... in which case you'll still be right].
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23rd July 2008
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Of course, my friend. Just use the the ENTIRE quote: "In contrast to the frequency response difference between a K47 and a CK12, the difference between the standing wave found in a 251 basket and a 47 basket negligible, at best."
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23rd July 2008
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MEOW...where's the popcorn. Actually, if I were to describe the two mics, I would consider a great 47 as being "ballsy, chest-pounding and pleasantly nasal-ish"...I would describe the great quality of a good 251 to be "big bottomed, velvet-like reediness with just the right amount of air"...but hey - that's just me...
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24th July 2008
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The difference in capsules is MUCH larger than the difference in grill baskets. In contrast to the frequency response difference between a K47 and a CK12, the difference between the standing wave found in a 251 basket and a 47 basket negligible, at best.[/quote]

Man you two fight like old hags, quite funny really but just because you both have differing oppinions, don't make it a personal sledge against the other.

But i must say, the above quote is definately true!! The difference in capsules is much larger.

And as far as doing my homework goes, i have done plenty! cheers. ben
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24th July 2008
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Fletcher and I don't fight. I love Fletcher. He's been very good to me. What good is a friend if you can't disagree with them? We're having a civilized difference of opinion.
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24th July 2008
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I find response graphs for many real-world microphones to be nothing more than damned lies. They're the equivalent of MPG estimates for cars. stike

But of course, YMMV.
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24th July 2008
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Many times I've found Brauner VM1 KHE to just do what OP asked minus slight less magic (read distortion) of older mics, but still very pleasant and nice.
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24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxostoma rufum View Post
They're the equivalent of MPG estimates for cars.

But of course, YMMV.
No pun intended?
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24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toxostoma rufum View Post
They're the equivalent of MPG estimates for cars. stike

But of course, YMMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
No pun intended?
awesome.
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24th July 2008
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I think the problem here is that M7's really change over time - they get brighter and lose some bottom end.

When we had Telefunken send us one of their U47AE's I found it quite dull in comparison to our originals (actually JJ you remember I even sent you the files). I had T-USA replace it with a brighter capsule and it almost matched perfectly.

The difference was this: The dark capsule had about a 1.5 dB boost at 5k & 10k. The one that matched our original had a 3dB/3.5dB boost at 5k & 10k. That small difference had a huge effect in "opening" up the u47.

Now looking back, I suspect the original T-USA capsule was probably closer to "stock" than the brighter one I replaced it with (although I prefer the brighter one). This is also supported by the fact that Armando (Del Cosmos on GS) received a U47AE with a capsule that matched my "brighter T-USA M7" and he found it brighter than his originals.

I think the problem here is that we are "dancing about architecture". A CK12 can be brighter on top (and should be) than a U47, but a U47 usually has a harder top than a CK12 - is that sparkly, raspier, brighter, or just harsher?

Technically speaking, I think most would consider a CK12 brighter, or at least more open on top than a normally functioning U47<--- which is a pretty rare bird to find these days.
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24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcher View Post
Negatory good buddy... let's just agree to disagree and be done with it... or better yet... you're right [or you're right until you do some other homework... in which case you'll still be right].
Classic! My thoughts exactly. Clearly know him well.

For whatever reason, our 251 appears to exhibit more high end than our 47, which is by no means dark.
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Ah, yes. Pot shots from ignoble, craven, anonymous users. Speaking of classic.
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24th July 2008
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Tony, I don't know if I ever sent you the file of the tests I did a couple months back, where I put about six different K47s on a pair of U47s. The only one that was a little too bright and brittle on top was a new one that came in a T-USA U47M, but I reversed it, and the other side was mellower. (I also gutted the mic, and replaced everything except for the VF14 and xformer. Ask Barry about the before and after.)

Anyway, I was finding the high end timbre to be pretty ballpark on all of them, though. The differences were more in terms of smoothness. It was the low end and mids that seemed to vary most noticeably between capsules.
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24th July 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GYang View Post
Many times I've found Brauner VM1 KHE to just do what OP asked minus slight less magic (read distortion) of older mics, but still very pleasant and nice.
Keep in mind that KHE's were hand-tuned to the clients spec, and unless you purchased two of them as "matched"...there were slight but notable differences in every KHE I've heard (which is only 4...but still). In general, though, I've found it to be a microphone that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with 251's or U47s. It's got a far more hifi/over-realistic/pulls you into the mouth of the singer kind of sound.
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25th July 2008
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A Mic with the high-end rasp of an ELAM 251 and the velvet mids of the U47?


Well I do think a good U49 could give you that, but still think ELAM 251 has it all, some times is tricky to listen songs and and try to make a comparative out of there because you never know what the side chain was. so.

If you have the money and already have the ELAM251 and the U47 get a 49 a Sony G800 and a Brauner VM1 KHE and enjoy them.

if you only have money for one big guy, get the ELAM 251.


cheersdfegad

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25th July 2008
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Quote:
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Ah, yes. Pot shots from ignoble, craven, anonymous users. Speaking of classic.
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19th April 2010
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Quote:
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Fletcher, I'm going to have to disagree. First off, response graphs are very reliable in terms of reflecting what we are hearing. If you look at the response graph of what happens when you change polar patterns, for instance, it corresponds EXACTLY to what you hear.
Problem with response curves is they don't really account for the changing frequency response at different distances. The U47 changes quite a bit depending on your distance, which seems to have more bass proximity boost than most other microphones I've tried.

To the original poster, if you want something that falls between a U47 and an original 251, you might want to look at the new Telefunken 251e, and maybe just try out some different tubes in it. We tested them all recently and found the new 251e to be just a bit mellower than our vintage 251 and just a bit brighter than a U47 (at least in this particular test).

Here are the clips: Tube Microphone Comparison - Telefunken 251, U47, C12, and More
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20th April 2010
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Quote:
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Love the high-end "rasp" of the ELAM and would love to have a U47-style mic that has this kind of high end
You're not satisfied with both classy sounds? Then nobody can help you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jjblair View Post
I dunno, Jonkenn. 251s are very open on top. Way brighter than a U47. As somebody recently commented, "It's a classy brightness." But it is definitely a bright mic, which is the hallmark of the CK12 capsule.
I second everything JJ said...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg B View Post
...if you want something that falls between a U47 and an original 251, you might want to look at the new Telefunken 251e).

Here are the clips: Tube Microphone Comparison - Telefunken 251, U47, C12, and More


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20th April 2010
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Your wish has been granted.



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Your wish has been granted.

It is 24 bit wavs - as well as mp3's
Ahh, nice catch, thx.

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