EMT 140, Lexicon 224 (X) or EMT 251? or AMS RMX16?

[syncussion]

Hello,

I'm in very much in doubt to which reverb i should get and am hoping someone might help me decide or make the choice smaller/easyer.
It's for my home studio. I make electronic music with only 70's analogue synths and my music is mostly very pure/minimal and ambient.
My budget only allows one top reverb right now. Should i get one that doesn't suit me np but i will be unproductive for the time it takes me to sell it and buy another one. Right now the only hardware reverb i own is a great british spring reverb.
Hi end reverbs i've owned in the past are a lex 960L and hated it (ask me why and i'll write a post just as long as this one e), and a Quantec Yardstick which i really liked but isn't the sound i'm looking for for my music.
What i'm looking for in a reverb right now is a very organic huge smooth dense sound that will sustain the resonant tones, drones and percussion of my old synths without getting muddy, in a way that builds a listeners room full of colour that you can get lost in. Lol sorry couldn't find any other words
I have the following reverbs i'm thinking about and have the option to buy:

Lexicon 224 or 224 X. I know it's sound from records and a few samples on the internet and really like it. Think this is the one I'm going to buy (224 or 224 X don't know yet which one) unless anybody tells me one of the others is way better.
Does anybody know what the difference in sound is between the 224 and 224 X? I read somehwere the 224 sounds more dark grainy (14 bit converters) vs the 16 bit converters of the 224 X. Is this a good thing in this case?What are the other differences?

EMT 251. Don't know much about it. Don't have the option to go listen before i buy (it's in another country)
Like the fact that you can experiment with it more and do reverse reverbs etc but i see this as an extra and not of main importance.
How does it compare in sound to a 224/224x?

AMS RMX16. same story as above. Read everybody loves the ambient and reverse programs.

EMT 140 tube or solid state version, both stereo.
I have the option to go listen to them before i would buy one. Although will it do long reverb times? Thought i read somewhere longest decay is around 3.2 seconds but i'm not sure if that's correct. And i might be able to make that longer with compression on the reverb and feeding delays in it? I do not mind the weight/moving it to my home/tuning it but i do move to a different house/city alot and in the future maybe even to a different country and i am keeping this in the back of my mind, but still.. it's the only one that's not digital and i'm sure i will be able to tell very well

Sorry for the long post got a bit longer than expected but i thought a well informed reader can give better advice
Thanks in advance for any help!

[thethrillfactor]

To kinda condense your post down a litte.; you need a reverb that will envelope the sound and not muddy it up right?

Well the truth is that its not really done with 1 reverb its is done with 2 and an outboard delay for a predelay setup.


One handles the intial sound while the other handles the bloom.


The predelay blends the sound in.

Also a touch of modulation can thicken up the bloom.


Which of the one's you've listed?


The 224XL is a dark sounding reverb that can blend well.


The AMS RMX16 has its own unique signature which will dominate a track pretty easily.

The EMT140 needs a little help sometimes when it comes to blending with the sound(it is great initially though).


The 251 while similar sounding to the 250 always feels smaller.


What would i do?

I would probably pick up the 224XL for its dark halls(bloom), a Roland R-880 ver 2.0 with the cards(initial) and either a pair of PCM42's or a AMS1580 for the predelay.

If you buy the EMT140 than you will need a nice EQ(API550's work well withthem), for the bloom the SP2016 seems to blend well with it and for a delay either of the above.

Sorry but the truth is there is no one thing that will do it.

[wwittman]

my penny's worth:

The EMT 250 is my favourite reverb. I've used it on every record i've made for 25+ years.. often as the only reverb.
Nothing sounds like it.
ESPECIALLY the 251, which I think basically sucks.

The 140 plates sound like plates. they are THE plate, naturally, and if well tuned they can be incredible.
Certainly many records were made with great success with only reverb plates, especially before there WERE digital reverbs.
Definitely a classy sound.
but that's if it's in good shape and well TUNED (you need to tune the plate, like a drum head, periodically)

The Lex 224 is a decent digital reverb... not my fave but certainly flexible.

The AMS is probably a better sounding alternative to the Lexicon, and in the same ball park.. plus you get their signature non-linear program (basis of many an 80's drum sound)


It comes down to taste and what your basic idea is about reverb.

Me, I'd rather one grerat sound than a selectable palette of many average sounds.
But that's me.

Given your choices as stated I suppose I would lean to either the plate (if ONE reverb sound works for you) or the AMS.

[Ruudman]

From what I've used the RMX16 for, it gets my vote.
A stellar unit that both enhances and envolves the sound.

If a 250 is within your budget, I'd have a listen to what Thrill
says and get a few different boxes for about the same price.

happy hunting



ruudman

[merlin17]

Regarding the RMX-16 (yeah, it´s me again ;-) ).
I´ve had it for some weeks now and I´m really thrilled.
The non-lin is exactly what I wanted (I seem to be one of the few these days...), I´ve used the reverse and I love the ambience (though it´s TOTALLY different than I imagined).
How do you use the RMX-16 mainly? Some settings you could share?

As I have no manual for the unit, the A-D buttons are non-functional, right?

BTW: I just ordered the V3 eproms as my unit is V2.
I hope they´ll work to update the unit. Anybody knows that? Are the eproms the only update?
I´ve tried to contact Howard Jones at kayamusic but he hasn´t responded to any of my emails. :-/

Peter

[Richard]

The first two replies nailed it for you.
I would add that with any choice, the use of a compressor/expander (post and / or pre) will increase your pallet greatly. Don't overlook tape/DDL's as an alternative to reverb.
Buy an AKG BX20e, the simplest solution.
regards, richard

[Sounds Great]

Originally posted by Richard
The first two replies nailed it for you.
I would add that with any choice, the use of a compressor/expander (post and / or pre) will increase your pallet greatly. Don't overlook tape/DDL's as an alternative to reverb.
Buy an AKG BX20e, the simplest solution.
regards, richard

Hi Richard. The BX20 is an interesting suggestion. Where do you find the most use for it? I had a BX10 almost 25 years ago.

As far as tape, absolutely. I still use my Multivox Multi-echo a lot. I bought it new in 1979!

[Richard]

Originally posted by Sounds Great
Hi Richard. The BX20 is an interesting suggestion. Where do you find the most use for it?

If I have to use reverb I go there first, It's the only one (apart from some very special chambers) that I like.
Richard

[syncussion]

Thank you all for your replies!

I'm really looking for the right long organic "bloom" that i can even put louder than the direct signal if wanted.
If i interpreted your posts correctly this drops the EMT 140 as it's great initially but doesn't do the long bloom very well (correct me if i'm wrong here)
It also drops the EMT 251 as I can not live with the idea that it has a similar sound to the EMT 250 (which i can't afford yet but working hard to be able to one day) but smaller. Too bad though as it's defenately the best looking of them all
The AKG BX-20 is allready on my wishlist and when i run into one at the right price i'll defenately buy it, but this is besides the reverb i'm looking for now which is not the spring sound.

This leaves the Lexicon 224 or 224X which i know i really like.
I read fletcher saying many times the 224XL lost the constant density plates which are really great and the XL goes more in the direction of the 480 soundwise whose sound i'm not looking for. So i'm looking at the X version or the first 224 version. Still not clear though what the difference is between their sound.

Or the AMS RMX 16.
Great to hear it might sound better than a Lexicon 224 and has a distinct unique sound. But i can't find any info for it on the internet, been searching for hours to find samples or a song which clearly shows the ambience program sound.
Anybody know of any songs or samples of it? Or is willing to run a snare or something through a long ambience program setting and post it here?

Once i have the main "bloom" reverb i will defenately experiment with a different initial reverb as you suggest Thrill, thanks.
You're suggesting those specific delays for use as a predelay because of their specific colour? Because those reverbs allready have their own predelay built in right?

[toolstudio]

Originally posted by syncussion
Thank you all for your replies!

I'm really looking for the right long organic "bloom" that i can even put louder than the direct signal if wanted.
If i interpreted your posts correctly this drops the EMT 140 as it's great initially but doesn't do the long bloom very well (correct me if i'm wrong here)
It also drops the EMT 251 as I can not live with the idea that it has a similar sound to the EMT 250 (which i can't afford yet but working hard to be able to one day) but smaller. Too bad though as it's defenately the best looking of them all
The AKG BX-20 is allready on my wishlist and when i run into one at the right price i'll defenately buy it, but this is besides the reverb i'm looking for now which is not the spring sound.

This leaves the Lexicon 224 or 224X which i know i really like.
I read fletcher saying many times the 224XL lost the constant density plates which are really great and the XL goes more in the direction of the 480 soundwise whose sound i'm not looking for. So i'm looking at the X version or the first 224 version. Still not clear though what the difference is between their sound.

Or the AMS RMX 16.
Great to hear it might sound better than a Lexicon 224 and has a distinct unique sound. But i can't find any info for it on the internet, been searching for hours to find samples or a song which clearly shows the ambience program sound.
Anybody know of any songs or samples of it? Or is willing to run a snare or something through a long ambience program setting and post it here?

Once i have the main "bloom" reverb i will defenately experiment with a different initial reverb as you suggest Thrill, thanks.
You're suggesting those specific delays for use as a predelay because of their specific colour? Because those reverbs allready have their own predelay built in right?

Hi,

the 224XL is the same as the 224X, but has a LARC instead of the blue remote.
The 224XL has the constant density plates, labeled CD PLATE in the plates bank.
As much as I like the CD plate, I like the constand density plate in an Yamaha REV1 better.

To hear the ambient alg., on the RMX16, just listen to the Celine Dion stuff, that vocal verb is pretty much all AMS Ambience.


regards,

wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

[Bob Olhsson]

Probably the very best reverb I've ever used were the two solid state EMT-140s that were at Sound Labs in LA during the mid '70s. We had one solid state 140 that was great and two tube 140s that sucked at Motown. At the Quicksilver studio we had a tube 140 that had been retrofitted with Greg Hanks electronics that I would rate as lying somewhere in between.

One real problem with Lexicons is that the pitch gets shifted down as you increase the predelay. I suppose to some it's a feature. Also beware that there are chips in the 224 and its relatives that are no longer available.

I think the WAVES IR-1 is seriously good at chambers and plates. It's so good that I recently "borrowed" my Sony R-7's power cord for another piece of gear. I'm not sure you'd want to use a real hall on a studio pop record so I don't judge it by that.

[zmix]

Originally posted by syncussion


I'm really looking for the right long organic "bloom" that i can even put louder than the direct signal if wanted.

The Lexicon 480 has "Shape" and "Spread" parameters to allow you to dial in exactly this effect.

I think that reverb can be problematic, and can lead to the "When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail" syndrome. Most classic records have shockingly little reverb, even on vocals. I recall mixing some 'alt rock' records in Nashville in the 1990s and the president of the label was concerned only that the studio I chose "Had a 480". I never used a drop of reverb on those records.

Having said that I think that the Sony DRE-2000 was a really incredible and original sounding reverb.

[syncussion]

Originally posted by toolstudio
Hi,

the 224XL is the same as the 224X, but has a LARC instead of the blue remote.
The 224XL has the constant density plates, labeled CD PLATE in the plates bank.
As much as I like the CD plate, I like the constand density plate in an Yamaha REV1 better.

To hear the ambient alg., on the RMX16, just listen to the Celine Dion stuff, that vocal verb is pretty much all AMS Ambience.


regards,

wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

I read somewhere that the actual algorithm of the 224X constant density plates is lost when upgrading to 224XL which is the new lark and new software & algorithms.
Read many posts that the upgrade makes it sound different, also on gearslutz: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/showt...ht=lexicon+224 (bottom of the tread)

Thanks for the RMX tip!
I'm downloading "Celine Dion, The Very Best Of" as I'm writing this and will give it a good listen.. aaargh the torture!

Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
One real problem with Lexicons is that the pitch gets shifted down as you increase the predelay. I suppose to some it's a feature. Also beware that there are chips in the 224 and its relatives that are no longer available.

Aah ok didn't know, but i like it allready
If i don't want that i can always use a seperate predelay, will only give me an extra option.
I'm not really worried about taking the chip risk, i'm used to 70's analogue e

Originally posted by zmix
The Lexicon 480 has "Shape" and "Spread" parameters to allow you to dial in exactly this effect.

Yes i know the 480 and know it will give the right kind of bloom except that i don't like the 480 sound character. To my ears it has well behaved not so fat and huge sounding smoothing "veil"/colour over it's sound. And it has been way overused in electronic music allready.
I need something much more real and raw and huge. Maybe i'm looking for a more grainy sound with lots of analogue coloring on the outputs and should just go with the 224.
Or lets see what celine dion does to me first

[merlin17]

Here´s some RMX-16 reverbs done with a snare drum sample.
This is with a version 2 unit (most units have the V3 software), so the patches may sound different with V3...

the file is:
- snare dry
- Ambience (4sec, hi -4)
- Plate B1 (4sec, hi -4)
- Hall C1 (4sec, hi -4)
- Plate A1 (4sec, hi -5)
- NonLin 1 (mono! 4sec)
- Reverse 1 (mono! 4sec)

Peter

[EngineEars]

Originally posted by zmix
I recall mixing some 'alt rock' records in Nashville in the 1990s and the president of the label was concerned only that the studio I chose "Had a 480".

If it's the same label I'm thinking of making 'alt rock' records in Middle Tennessee in the 90s then I'm sorry you had to deal with that loser. He should go be a label head and let the producer/engineer pick the reverbs. fuuck

Anyway back on topic......does the Klark Teknik DN-780 come anywhere close to the AMS RMX or are they all together different beast? I've always wanted to learn more about the AMS effects boxes but never have time to experiment with them.

[MIKEHARRIS]

Please temper your decision...as Bob Ohlsson pointed out...with the knowledge that most of these units are becoming irrepairable

[EngineEars]

Thanks Merlin17, now I can just sit here and A/B my 780 presets with the RMX on snare! You rock

[merlin17]

EngineEars,

could you post DN780 patches with my snare drum sample?
I´d´be interested to hear those, too, because I´ve heard that it and the RMX-16 look similar but are totally different...

Thanx,
Peter

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by syncussion
You're suggesting those specific delays for use as a predelay because of their specific colour? Because those reverbs allready have their own predelay built in right?

The answer to your question is yes.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by EngineEars

Anyway back on topic......does the Klark Teknik DN-780 come anywhere close to the AMS RMX or are they all together different beast? I've always wanted to learn more about the AMS effects boxes but never have time to experiment with them.

No comparison between both.

The DN-780 is thinner sounding and has less character.


The AMS is all character.


Sometimes its the right thing and sometimes its too much.


I put the RMX16 in the same category as the Eventide SP2016.


Both must haves if you do any popular music.

[Richard]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
No comparison between both.

The DN-780 is thinner sounding and has less character.


The AMS is all character.


Sometimes its the right thing and sometimes its too much.


.

Wish I had said that
Richard

[zmix]

Originally posted by EngineEars
If it's the same label I'm thinking of making 'alt rock' records in Middle Tennessee in the 90s then I'm sorry you had to deal with that loser. He should go be a label head and let the producer/engineer pick the reverbs. fuuck

Anyway back on topic......does the Klark Teknik DN-780 come anywhere close to the AMS RMX or are they all together different beast? I've always wanted to learn more about the AMS effects boxes but never have time to experiment with them.

Sounds like a different guy. The guy I spoke of was great. Just had certain 'yardsticks' when it came to gear, and at the time it seemed that every A-list studio had a 480 and a 224XL.

[BrianBrian]

Damn I wish I could have any one of those verbs. I would probably go with a RMX16 or 224 for electronic/ambient/minimal type work. Also Sigur Ros are big fans of the RMX16, you can clearly hear it on their work.

[Sounds Great]

Originally posted by Richard
If I have to use reverb I go there first, It's the only one (apart from some very special chambers) that I like.
Richard

I had to go back and listen to these songs I recordered for Peter back around 1981. Nothing but the BX10 reverb and Multivox tape echo. And NO compressors at all. On a Scully 16 track tape deck.

Yeah, I gotta get me one of those BX20's. I assume it is even better than the 10?

http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Peter_Himmelman/

(streaming seems to be not working, try downloading one.)

[zmix]

Originally posted by Sounds Great
I had to go back and listen to these songs I recordered for Peter back around 1981. Nothing but the BX10 reverb and Multivox tape echo. And NO compressors at all. On a Scully 16 track tape deck.

Yeah, I gotta get me one of those BX20's. I assume it is even better than the 10?

http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Peter_Himmelman/

(streaming seems to be not working, try downloading one.)

He's come a long way since Sussman Lawrence!

-CZ

[Sounds Great]

Originally posted by zmix
He's come a long way since Sussman Lawrence!

-CZ

Yes he has. I wish he had more recognition. His work on Judging Amy is really excellent. You can actually hear how good the soundtrack is if you listen for it.

[jslstrat]

thethrillfactor
Lives for gear




Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 8,091 Quote:
Originally posted by EngineEars

Anyway back on topic......does the Klark Teknik DN-780 come anywhere close to the AMS RMX or are they all together different beast? I've always wanted to learn more about the AMS effects boxes but never have time to experiment with them.

No comparison between both.

The DN-780 is thinner sounding and has less character.


The AMS is all character.


Sometimes its the right thing and sometimes its too much.


I put the RMX16 in the same category as the Eventide SP2016.


oth must haves if you do any popular music.

*****I couldnt disagree more.......... I have a DN780 and I was going to comment how much the Files Posted with RM16 and snare sounded alot like my DN780. Very nice dense reverbs! And very smooth decays! Excellent on drums and VOX*****
Setting the AUX trims In and out on the console makes a big difference on the effects! . And the great analog factor (caps and transformers)some units sound better than others . How the Digital effect Is brought In and Out of the unit has alot to do with the sound. The DN 780 has transformers on the input and outputs.
Sounds great I love It!. You still see It in all of the major studios..........JSL

[djui5]

If you can't get a 250, get a 224XL

[studio57]

The AKG BX-20 is allready on my wishlist and when i run into one at the right price i'll defenately buy it, but this is besides the reverb i'm looking for now which is not the spring sound.


-----------------
i know this add was old but still......
i have one AKG BX20 E here in finland/europe if someone want so buy or trade to urei 1176

contact studio57 at studio57.fi

www.studio57.fi

[themaidsroom]

get the 140 plate
it is never beyond repair


be well


- jack