double micing toms

[borut]

Perhaps it's not high end topic, but I seem to think it is. You don't see low budget studios using top and bottom mics on toms.

I was wondering (since I never tried it), what is the purpuse of the bottom mic?

What do you gain with it?

What sound to expect from it?

Do you record them to a single track, or do you blend them together later?

Phase problems or benefits?

Positioning of mics?

Bleed?

These questions were "inspired"
by the king's x at wireworld!!!

[Jay Kahrs]

It seems totally excessive to me, the more open mics you have on a given source the more phase smear you can get. Granted, there's wicked tone coming from the bottom head of a drum but I can usually get something good from doing top only or bottom only. The exception to the rule, sometimes...on every other 3rd Monday if there's a blue moon is floor toms. Once in a while I'll want the extra tone from micing the bottom head without giving up attack from the top head.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by borut
Perhaps it's not high end topic, but I seem to think it is. You don't see low budget studios using top and bottom mics on toms.

I agree with Jay, very excessive. Some people here get their sound without tom mics at all. I use top mics just to get a little more direct upfront sound and control of the volume of the toms if necessary. Having bottom mics sounds like either a phase nightmare, or IMO not worth the time to move the mics around to get the phase right anyway.

[DirkB]

I try to get the clarity in the toms from the overheads and the sustaining "boom" from the room(s). The close top mic's are used liken Nathat said: to control some volume, perhaps add some definition and/or as a reverb send....

Never felt the need to mic the bottom and the phase will be a nightmare...

Greetings,
Dirk

[NewOrleansSteve]

O.K.,
I checked in on this thread, because I thought someone would say, “Well, you flip the phase on the bottom mic”. This doesn’t make sense to me. If you flip the phase you are mot blending the two sources together – you are LITERALLY SUBTRACTING the bottom FROM the top mic. Not adding.

So, who here has done this, the phase flip thing?
Please give us some insight.
I’d like to see some more discussion on this here\.

[joeq]

Originally posted by NewOrleansSteve
O.K.,
I checked in on this thread, because I thought someone would say, “Well, you flip the phase on the bottom mic”. This doesn’t make sense to me. If you flip the phase you are mot blending the two sources together – you are LITERALLY SUBTRACTING the bottom FROM the top mic. Not adding.

So, who here has done this, the phase flip thing?
Please give us some insight.
I’d like to see some more discussion on this here\.

In most cases, a bottom mic will be pointing up and a top mic pointing down, thus when the top mic sees (+) the bottom mic will see (-) If the source was a tuning fork with identical mics equidistant above and below you would get wicked cancellation if you did not flip the phase on one of the mics.

Of course on a drum, its much more complex than that, given the broadband nature of drum sounds, the distance of the mics from eachother, from the two respective heads, the natural delay of the resonant head etc. etc.

The IBP lets you "tune" in the phase (In Between Phase) not just "flip"it.

The final arbiter is your ears- does the sound 'add' or 'improve' when you flip the phase; or does it get thinner and weaker? Sometimes I am surprised at which mics need to be flipped for the best sound.

[bloke]

I mic top and bottom of the toms and find it adds HEAPS to the sound, but, I always use the same mics and the same type of rim clips so theyr both in the same position relative to the skins, I also make sure the bottom skin is tuned a bit lower to get the boooooooom (downward inflection), with a single mic I find its a booom, the bottom mic ads 3 or 4 more o's

[Rea]

ive done 2 albums this year, as band member, that used this technic.one with one of the greatest engineers of the past 2 decades whos work evetrone knows and mostly likes, and one with a much less known engineer, but a killer one never the less.

the former even used 2 mics on the kick(front and back).

the sound was to die for, and im not talking about mixes, just right at the control after a take.

its warm punchy and full.makes you drull when you hear those toms.

the way they were doing it is by recording to the same track after playing abit with the volume ratio of each signal(top and bottom) until it sounded awsome and then left it there,

i love it!

[loudist]

Finally, a reply from a couple of experienced recordists that have used the technique sucessfully.

The trick is to get your OH imaging first then add mics one at a time (start with snare and kick) to see whether they are adding or not. Phase flip as needed.
An X/Y Scope comes in handy.
I agree that you might be surprised at which mics require the 'flip'.

Not one technique works in all MUSICAL situations... Zep proved that time and again.
Too many recordings have room sound when it isn't apropriate.

[Jason Poulin]

A mic placed properly in front of the kit can get some good meat out of those toms!

Then put it through a meat grinding distressor

Hit it hard!!!

Jason

[paterno]

I LOVE TOP AND BOTTOM MICS ON TOMS !!!!!

It's not excessive if you find you get great results with it. It is not the phase nightmare some might think if you keep the mics close and pay attention to the polarity in relation to the top mic.

I started doing it again about a year and half ago, because i was thinking about the Queen tom sounds on the Roy Thomas Baker/ Mike Stone era stuff, and it was the only way i could think of to get the size those toms have. And it worked great!! I basically get the basic tom sound going with just the top mics and the check the polarity against the overheads to get them correct. Then i invert the polarity of the bottom mic [relative to the polarity of the top mic], and blend it in to taste. I always combine them together with the corresponding top mic when I print them. I did it on a 3 piece rock band thing that I worked on last spring, and the toms sound pretty amazing!

It is not the call for everything [like a jazz record], but there's nothing like it when you need big toms...

Cheers,
John

[mwagener]

When we did the MOAW with King's X, Fletcher reminded me of that technique, which I had not used in a few years. The tom sound on that recording is one of the best I got out of my drumkit, also of course due to Fletcher's ability to tune drums until they "sing".

I have since used the dual mic technique on toms again and love it. You place the top mic where you get the most punch and then have somebody move the bottom mic (polarity reversed) towards and away from the bottom head until you get the best sound. The phase sitation between the two mics helps keeping the cymbals out of the tom track, no negative effects noticed here. I mix the two mics of each tom to one track. On the last recording we used SM58s on the top and Sennheiser 504s on the bottom.

I think in recording you can't be excessive enough, the whole minimalist thing doesn't work for me. If it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing...

[heinz]

Originally posted by mwagener
I think in recording you can't be excessive enough, the whole minimalist thing doesn't work for me. If it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing...

I love that man, totally fearless. Go big or go home!

[zmix]

Another advantage of using top and bottom mics is that there is greater common mode rejection, in other words, since the two mics are out of phase, they will cancel extraneous signals and the toms will have far less kit leakage in them.

[Bob Olhsson]

I did it for years, first saw Cal Harris do it around 1968. It's tricky to get set up right but if you've got the time it's great.

Digital also really shines here because you had to mix the mikes together before going to analog tape or you'd never get the phasing to sound right. Slipping samples around can also be more effective than just flipping the phase.

[loudist]

Originally posted by mwagener
If it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing...

Watch out, another MW quote for Fletchers sig... h e h e h

[loudist]

Originally posted by zmix
Another advantage of using top and bottom mics is that there is greater common mode rejection, in other words, since the two mics are out of phase, they will cancel extraneous signals and the toms will have far less kit leakage in them.

Dude... you are such a Deadhead.
I kid, I KID!

That was the Dead's live vocal setup (2 mics one polarity reversed per vocal) in the wall of sound PA period in the 70's where the PA was set up behind the band...
Every mic (I do mean every onstage mic) had its own preamp amplifier and speaker behind the band... the mix happened in the air, hence... wall of sound.

Yea! Sounded awesome.

[bnath]

Originally posted by mwagener
I think in recording you can't be excessive enough, the whole minimalist thing doesn't work for me. If it's worth doing, it's worth over-doing...

+1


b :*

[mdbeh]

Originally posted by mwagener
When we did the MOAW with King's X, Fletcher reminded me of that technique, which I had not used in a few years. The tom sound on that recording is one of the best I got out of my drumkit, also of course due to Fletcher's ability to tune drums until they "sing".

The pair of Josephson E22S's didn't hurt either, as I recall.

Seriously... if it sounds good, go for it. In this case, it sounded very, very nice.

[Fletcher]

Yep, the e22S's didn't hurt a bit... but as Michael just pointed out he did the top and bottom thing with a 58 and 504 with I'm sure excellent results.

The whole reason for the 'double mic' thing on the toms is to use the phase relationship of the two mics for EQ as well as cymbal rejection.

It definitely will add some time to the setup... but it's usually worth it [unless it's done poorly in which case it's beyond a waste of time bordering on destructive].

[zmix]

Originally posted by zmix

Another advantage of using top and bottom mics is that there is greater common mode rejection, in other words, since the two mics are out of phase, they will cancel extraneous signals and the toms will have far less kit leakage in them.

Dude... you are such a Deadhead.
I kid, I KID!

I think the two mic approach was used alot on Hendrix' vocal mic, too!

[zmix]

Originally posted by Fletcher
....The whole reason for the 'double mic' thing on the toms is to use the phase relationship of the two mics for EQ ....

Same goes for front and back mics on an open back guitar cabinet... very interesting EQ possibilities.

[keiffer]

It's based on the genre... for instance

Jazz - Seldom to never

Rock - generally

Heavy Rock - Always... love the bottom head on a well tuned Tom

I usually, but not always, flip the polarity on mics that look at the overheads or are on the other side of what the overheads see...

Kick
Tom Bottoms
Snare Bottom

Of course, the determining factor though is how it sounds

-keith-

[Jay Kahrs]

I find that I get the best sounds by starting with tuning the kit for the desired sounds then starting with the room mics, adding overheads and then kick, snare & toms checking for phase in one speaker mono along the way. It's just a program that works for me...especially if the drummer is making noise that's worth capturing.

[Duardo]

I remember reading an interview with the drummer from Poison back in the late '80's where he said that they would put microphones on the top and bottom of all of his toms, as well as one on the shell.

-Duardo

[Realtugs]

Originally posted by Duardo
I remember reading an interview with the drummer from Poison back in the late '80's where he said that they would put microphones on the top and bottom of all of his toms, as well as one on the shell.

-Duardo

Before or after he put on his lipstick?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[stealthbalance]

ive used both top and bottom tom mics tons and i also haven't used top and bottom tom mics tons. its just a slightly diff sound. as far as it being exessive, whatever floats your boat do it.

s

[7rojo7]

Any kind of music that's extremely aggressive needs a super tight close mic'ing of the instruments, too much ambience can absolutely ruin a good performance. you don't want to waste too much time when you have an artist in the studio ready to play. You must, especially if you have not had the time to do pre production, set up for both instances. Depending on the material you have to record.
For jazz and even some types of rock I can setup only OH and in front of the kit and it works, for pop it would never work and any kind of speed death core metal it wouldn't work either. you have to do what works for the music. A jazz drummer can't even play on a rock kit, they find that the sound of the kit makes their arms heavy. Thus drummers (if they're good) from each style of music tune their kits differently and their music has different sensibilities which dictate different recording techniques. For jazz lately I'm favoring a mono OH and one in front of the kit, if I put that up for Brutal Truth you wouldn't even hear the toms or the snare or the kik just some whizzy hihat. 2 mics on evry drum, a mic on evry group of cymbals. I still tune the drums and do soundcheck myself before a drummer even wakes up, any changes are usually very minor, there are many ways to tune a kit. Also drawing automation has alleviated any type of bleed problem if there is one, in tracking there's usually a relationship between mic, mic placement and mic amp gain that works best to reduce the effects of bleed. Gates seem to work better if there's not a highly compressed or a track that's too hot or too low ( I never track with them) but that's for mixing.

[Nu-tra]

I've been doing the top and bottom micing on the tom. I've been using a x/y meter to check phase and correlation. I notinced my 2nd rack tom goes out of phase when struck with more force. I think I have to retune it for the top and bottom skin might be the same pitch causing the out of phase sound within the drum. anyone else have this problem? the meter is confusing. Is it ok when the correlation is inbetween 0 and +1? between the top and bottom mic?