When do you go for a "plate" verb vs. a "hall" or "room"

[fuzzmike]

I just curious about how you guys work. When I'm mixing I usually set up 3 reverbs.

1) small room with stereo reflection: to add some depth to really dry sources, and to add a bit of stereo width to mono sources that need it.

2) a verb dedicated for drums. Something like a drum room to help glue the kit together, or a long "crack" verb for the snare and toms (depends on the song)

3) then a something like a 2 or 3 second verb. I usually keep flipping through patches till I find something that fits the feel of the song.

I usually don't go for plate patches though. Not because I don't like them...maybe I'm scared of them .

Where do you usually apply your plates?

[Revelation]

Plates bring to my mind the Beach Boys, and a lot of recordings done in the 80's. We have such a natural sound in recordings these days, that I just don't use them. Not that they can't be used, and I know many use them for many situations, but I get so many great reverb sounds with other settings in my SIR Lex Waves reverbs, plus my Dreamverb UAD reverb when I don't want the reverb to be as smooth sounding.

[fuzzmike]

I'm going through this reverb dillema right now. I was mixing an orchestral cue for a friend of mine, and I was using Altiverb as my reverb (which is better than Space Designer for convo reverb IMO). So he loved everything except that he though when he used his PCM91, the track feels wider and more natural (ambiently speaking). So I'm thinking of getting a Kurzweil Rumor which I've heard very good things about.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by fuzzmike
So he loved everything except that he though when he used his PCM91, the track feels wider and more natural (ambiently speaking). So I'm thinking of getting a Kurzweil Rumor which I've heard very good things about.

Nothing sounds like a Lexicon, so if he likes the Lexicon sound, go with a Lexicon.


I use plates by the way on different sources:

1)Lead vocals and backgrounds

2)Snares

3)Strings

4)keys

Sometimes to make them work you have to make a chain, like a plate into a chorus or vice versa.

[Jay Kahrs]

I'll set up 2-3 verbs for a given project. Usually one short, one long and one specialty verb like a spring or a 8 second decay or something. Usually all of 'em are stereo and I'll pan the returns around as needed. I usually start with a plate or a hall and if those aren't fitting I'll try different things until I find something I do like. Though, it's hard to not like a good plate...the problem is finding a plate 'verb in a digital box that actually sounds something like a plate.

[fuzzmike]

I just saw a post that Fletcher said the Rumor had amazing plates. I just don't want to pay even $1000 used for a PCM when I could get in that range quality for 1/2 the price. I prefer to work "in the box" too, so this in kind of traumatic for me.

[Jay Kahrs]

I haven't had a chance to muck with a Rumor but I have messed with the KSP8, if they have the same engine and algorithms then it should be killer. And FWIW, I still haven't heard a 'verb plug that matches a dedicated box for overall quality.

[Macaroni]

UA recently released their EMT-140 plugin, which was designed after 3 different EMT140 units at a well known recording studio in Sausalito. It sounds fantastic and has gotten rave reviews by users - even those who used the same hardware units at that studio.

There are a variety of presets that provide the usual plate sounds and even ambient, shorter decay stuff too. Definitely worth checking out, and only $150 if you have a UAD-1 card.

[DirkB]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
I haven't had a chance to muck with a Rumor but I have messed with the KSP8, if they have the same engine and algorithms then it should be killer. And FWIW, I still haven't heard a 'verb plug that matches a dedicated box for overall quality.

Well, I did a limited A/B of the Rumour and KSP and, even while the Rumour was connected via the analogue I/O and the KSP digitally, we could not detect which was which using the same presets.
On another blind test with a Rumour, PCM90 and M3000 the Rumour plates came out favourably, while the M3000 had the best room programs (to 3 listeners). We did prefer the halls of the PCM90. I got me an M3000 and Rumour and that's all the reverb I need in the rockmusic I generally work on...

A usual approach for me would be:
Kurzweil plate for vocals
M3000 small room for drums
M3000 any preset that fits a special feature in the song or to set a combination for the leadvocal: f.e. dark room in the chorus, rumour plate in vers.

I tend to use plates with a 50-100ms predelay to get some space and decay to vocals. The rooms are generally used to create depth by sending stuff to the back.
Most of the time I try the reverb to be unnoticed.

Greetings,
Dirk

[DirkB]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
And FWIW, I still haven't heard a 'verb plug that matches a dedicated box for overall quality.

My neither...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by fuzzmike
I just saw a post that Fletcher said the Rumor had amazing plates. I just don't want to pay even $1000 used for a PCM when I could get in that range quality for 1/2 the price. I prefer to work "in the box" too, so this in kind of traumatic for me.

Yeah but a Rumor doesn't sound like a Lexicon(not even close).


And most of the Lexicon boxes have digital ins.

[drundall]

Regarding the original question, I use plates a lot because they're generally brighter and are more present in a dense mix for me. I'll sometimes EQ the send so things don't get too harsh.
Depends a lot on the style of music.

[bigmanoncampus]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Yeah but a Rumor doesn't sound like a Lexicon(not even close).

I agree, the rumour does sound a lot better.

And most of the Lexicon boxes have digital ins.

So does the Rumour

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by bigmanoncampus
I agree, the rumour does sound a lot better.

Not when you need the Lexicon sound and the Lexicon reverb sound has a certain signature.

For something in its price range, i would choose the Sony DPS-V77 over the Rumour for plates.

If you don't need digital ins, i would choose the Sony R7.

[alphajerk]

i love plates on guitars...

[Tim L]

The plates in the Rumour are excellent! I end up using plates on vox quite a bit... some incidental percusion stuff as well but mostly vocals.

For the money (or even quite a bit more) you can't beat this thing!

[BrianBrian]

I really like the sound of plates on vocals with a healthy amount of pre-delay. Plates can also make background vocals sound massive and gel together nicely. Of course, plates sound awesome on snares, toms and most other percussion (bongos, congas, etc). The right plate on an acoustic guitar can be amazing. I also like using plates to make big washes as a special effect, chaining a delay with a good amount of feedback into a long decay plate. Hell now that I think of it pianos sound cool with something like an EMT 140. Just experiment, and don't fear the plate.

[jdunn]

For something in its price range, i would choose the Sony DPS-V77 over the Rumour for plates.

Sweet, I have 2 of those already. I also picked up a pair of Lexicon PCM 42's recently after reading that thread. And I still have my Lexicon M300.

Thanks to Thrillfactor for the expertise on reverbs/delays! Hey, what do you recommend for acoustic jazz music? I've gotten good mileage out of the 300, but people do say that the TC's (3000/4000) have better sounding halls/rooms than the Lexicons.

[wallace]

I have the rumor and think it's awesome. It's been a great addition to my studio for less than $400. I haven't heard the PCM70 but I have heard that it's similar in some regards, maybe not. I like having outboard reverb so it doesn't eat up computer power (the latency thing sucks though).

[M2E]

Well I have to say that I love Plates.
1. A Plate of chicken and cornbread smoother in gray sauce.
2. I wish I had a hall full of weed sellers willing to bring a dime bag back.
3. I also love a room full of naked women as well. But that's just me I guess.

Great question. Jus mess'n round.

M2E

[De chromium cob]

Originally posted by wallace
I haven't heard the PCM70 but I have heard that it's similar in some regards, maybe not.

Yes- both plug into the wall, so they're similar in some regards....

[Alécio Costa]

I have been doing lots of gospel/dance stuff lately.
Here is the way I assign reverbs ( Bob C. wet school, ok?):
2 Rev halls for vocals, BGVs, pianos, strings
1 Rev Plate for the above mentioned
2 Rev Rooms for snare, toms, kick, bass guitar (yes but very low)
1 addittional long Rev hall only for vocals and BGVs
1 Stereo Chorus for those who need some thickering
2 mod delays (1 for vocals and 1 for leads(guitar, violin, etc)
1 phase/pan delay for bringing up some details occasionally

Nothing fancy ( Yamaha 01v 96 and 02r efx, cheap Lexicon and Art boxes like MPX1, SGX200) , but sounds way better than rev plugs.

[Musiclab]

Originally posted by jdunn
Sweet, I have 2 of those already. I also picked up a pair of Lexicon PCM 42's recently after reading that thread. And I still have my Lexicon M300.

Thanks to Thrillfactor for the expertise on reverbs/delays! Hey, what do you recommend for acoustic jazz music? I've gotten good mileage out of the 300, but people do say that the TC's (3000/4000) have better sounding halls/rooms than the Lexicons.

I think you'll find the M3000 doesnt poke out in the mix as well. I fooled around with the M4000 and that seemed abit better. I own a M3000 and a PCM90 and an Kurzweil KSP8 and a Dyna cord DRP20 amongst others. My fav for density and overall quality is the KSP by far. It's around the price of an M4000 and you get 8 in 8 out.

[Sounds Great]

On another blind test with a Rumour, PCM90 and M3000 the Rumour plates came out favourably, while the M3000 had the best room programs (to 3 listeners). We did prefer the halls of the PCM90. I got me an M3000 and Rumour and that's all the reverb I need in the rockmusic I generally work on...

I agree. The room ambience sound is where the M3000 shines. But still not as good as the rooms in my main units, the Roland R880's. My M3000 takes a back seat to them, simply awesome.

[AlphaDingo]

BrianBrian Wrote:

and don't fear the plate.

Respect the plate. Tame the room.

[Froombosch]

Most digital simulations of plates do not sound like a plate. A few years ago I could not figure out what all the hype was about plates because of all these cheap look alikes. If you want a plate sound just use one....

[threm]

Thrill,
Are there any budget ways into the halls of Lexicon?
PCM 70's with latest software can be found around $450 - $500. Massenburg has used the 70 quite a bit on vox, if i remember right.
How does it compare to the PCM 91. Or the big ones?

My verbs: (sold two EMT140 tube plates, didn't have the space)
DSP 4000, TC M2000, Dynacord DRP20, RSP Intelliverb, DP4,
2 x Valverb.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Yeah but a Rumor doesn't sound like a Lexicon(not even close).

And Lexicons don't sound like real reverbs either.

Whuz your point?

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
And Lexicons don't sound like real reverbs either.

Whuz your point?

My point is when people want the Lexicon sound, what they want is the Lexicon algo's which are their design.

Also a big part to the Lexicon sound is the amount of modulation added to the reverbs themselves(especially the halls).

Sure they are synthesized simulations, but most popular music are synthesized ideas brought together to sound as a whole.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by threm
Thrill,
Are there any budget ways into the halls of Lexicon?
PCM 70's with latest software can be found around $450 - $500. Massenburg has used the 70 quite a bit on vox, if i remember right.
How does it compare to the PCM 91. Or the big ones?
.

The PCM 70 sound is one of the most recognizable reverb sound of 80's music.

What i learned from working with it for so long is that in order to get the best sound, you need a pair, each running in mono.

You pan each mono return where you want it and you get a humongous and lush sound.

When running it on its own in pseudo stereo mode(it has 1 in and 2 outs) its reverbs tended to eat up the mix too fast.

Then it becomes too much reverb and we are back to the big hair days with the skinny ties.

What Lexicon is cheap enough and gives you a good chance for the Lex Hall?

Well i've never been a big fan of the PCM-91.

What i liked the best in it are the tap delays mixed with reverbs.

I think on a budget, i would look for a used PCM-80 with the cards.

Its different than the 91.

The 91 has the dual reverb engine which tends to make the reverbs more discrete, but a little less Lexicon sounding.

The 80 has one reverb engine, but it also has an engine dedicated to modulation and its that combination that actually gives the Lexicon Hall alot of its sound.