SSL Costs.

[Makinithappen]

Originally Posted by tigermuzik

has anyone (here) tried incorporating solar panels into the ssl situation?

DelCosmos would probably save millions.

[vin-gear]

Originally Posted by rvwainscott

A very conservative estimate would be 2 amps per ch. 60ch board would need, say, 120 amps.

Someone tell me if my math is wrong.

I would say something is wrong here. When my old 32 channel API is on, my power conditioner shows it's pulling a honking 2.2-2.4 amps. I'm in the neigborhood of 286-2520 discrete OA's. Granted, I don't have a gate and comp on every channel or an automation system. Just good ole grab the fader and slide it with your hand.

FWIW, I have been powering my desk on and off 2 or 3 times a week for about 8-10 months now. I have had zero issues with component failure during this time. Therefore, I will continue to power cycle and ignore the old wive's tale.

When doing a recap, I noticed a nice 3" diameter burnt up spot where a 2520 took a shit for the previous owner. It was on a 6"X6" metal shield that is under one of the ACA's. This got me thinking early on, what if I leave my desk up, maybe while I'm asleep or away, and I come home or wake up to the fire department hosing down my house. Not worth the risk if you ask me. You also have to remember that 95% of my console enclosure is wood too.

I suppose the building codes require most commercial spaces to be sprinkled so, I guess all will be good if something sparks up.

[rvwainscott]

Originally Posted by vin-gear

I would say something is wrong here. When my old 32 channel API is on, my power conditioner shows it's pulling a honking 2.2-2.4 amps. I'm in the neigborhood of 286-2520 discrete OA's. Granted, I don't have a gate and comp on every channel or an automation system. Just good ole grab the fader and slide it with your hand.

Greetings,

My math was based on my burning up voltage regulators and power transformers. I burned them up until I designed a system that could provide at least 500ma to each cartridge (502, 522, 510, 501) I have 8 units in my box and it sucks up about 4amps. This is the equivalent of, what, 2 channels on the 5000 board? I'm guessing so.

Based on that, I can see how a 60ch board could use every bit of 120 amps. Keep in mind, this is linear power, not switched. The SSL's are +/- 18v systems. Not to mention the -25v needed for the logic portion of each cartridge and the 6v needed for the pre's to make the pads (I believe it is the pads-could be wrong on that one) work properly.

Again, I've never had the money to own a SSL board, just pieces of one.

[GTQO]

Remember that "amps" on the DC side of a power supply is not equal to "amps" on the AC side. What you need to think about is power consumption, which is measured in watts (Volts x Amps = Watts.)

There was one mention that a 4060 consumes somewhere around 2000 watts continuous. For a very rough estimate: 2000 Watts / 36 Volts = 56 Amps. 56 Amps / 60 channels = 0.93 Amps per channel. (Obviously this is just an estimate. The center section and the rest of the console are using some of the power as well.)

As to "amps" on the AC side, 2000 Watts / 240 Volts / 80% efficiency = 10.4 Amps. (No idea if the power supplies are actually 80% efficient. Just a guess.) This does not account for inrush current (charging capacitors) when switching on the system. It would not surprise me if a 20 Amp, 240 Volt circuit is required to prevent tripping breakers.

- GTQO

[theother]

Originally Posted by GTQO

Remember that "amps" on the DC side of a power supply is not equal to "amps" on the AC side. What you need to think about is power consumption, which is measured in watts (Volts x Amps = Watts.)

There was one mention that a 4060 consumes somewhere around 2000 watts continuous. For a very rough estimate: 2000 Watts / 36 Volts = 56 Amps. 56 Amps / 60 channels = 0.93 Amps per channel. (Obviously this is just an estimate. The center section and the rest of the console are using some of the power as well.)

As to "amps" on the AC side, 2000 Watts / 240 Volts / 80% efficiency = 10.4 Amps. (No idea if the power supplies are actually 80% efficient. Just a guess.) This does not account for inrush current (charging capacitors) when switching on the system. It would not surprise me if a 20 Amp, 240 Volt circuit is required to prevent tripping breakers.

- GTQO

You would only need a 20A breaker if the desk comes online all at once.

But don't forget you really should switch your desk on in stages.

First the centre section with a 1-2 bays and only one PSU. (never switch on the first PSU with no load, always 1-2 bays at least on) Then the second PSU and the rest of the bays (8 channel at a time), and finally the PSU for the computer.

That way there is no way you would trip the breaker.

You have to put in circuit breakers so that in the event of a power cut the SSL doesn't come back with the full load at once, once the power is restored.

They can be bought at any DUY store at a couple of $.

What happens if there is loss of power you have to reset the switch by hand, which gives you a chance to switch the SSL PSUs and channels (or at least some of them) off before the power comes back.

I haven't seen many studios using them and that is one of the reasons why their desks and PSUs keep breaking down.

Here is an example of such a switch:
Axminster NVR Switch : Buy Axminster NVR Switch at Axminster Power Tool Centre

Another important tool to have is a thermometer sensor in the machine room with a beeper/alarm in the control room once it's getting to hot in the machine room.
Do you know how often I switched off the A/C and forgotten about it?
Or what if the A/C fails and you don't know?

That's all you need:
Multi Channel Thermo/Hygrometer with alarm (EMR899HG) : Thermometer : Weather : Oregon Scientific

Based on that, I can see how a 60ch board could use every bit of 120 amps.

And can we please stop spreading bullshit like this?

You guys never owned an SSL or seen the real numbers, I guess. You are doing the community no service with such highly incorrect figures.

The real figure for a 60 channel desk is: 8-9 Amps (240V) and 18-20 Amps on 110V. With all the PSUs in the SSL rack on. Totall Recall, G+ computer, the lot.

Anyone saying somthing else has to come up with more evidence than hearsay or his/her wild imagination.

[philosi]

The actual power a SSL uses is one thing... Here in NYC if you are in a commercial building, you aren't paying the electric bill direct to Con-Ed. It is added to your monthly rent by the building. They have at least one sub-contractor taking a cut and they are taking a cut, so I figure the electric is at least twice what it should be. And for all I know, the building or some other tenant is also using power off of our meter...?

Yee Ha!

[samw@SSL]

Originally Posted by theother

If your new 48 channel Duality draws 1,500W and my 'power hungry' SL4060 G+ less than 2,000W, with the computer switched on, there must be something wrong with SSL's new salespitch!

I can show you pictures of my meter readings!

Well that is odd as that sounds like just the surface, if you add in the rack as well you should be around 5000w or something is wrong.

Regarding the other comment about the stopping of support for the 4000, unfortunately as we are an EU based manufacturer we are beholden to EU regulations regarding RoHS and WEE compliance. Sadly most of the 4000 series is not compliant and therefore we cannot supply it.

Perhaps you could lobby your M.E.P?

Best wishes,

Sam
Solid State Logic

[anguswoodhead]

Hi ssl guru's

I am trying to talk my millionaire studio owner buddy into buying an SSL console when he designs his new control room.

Were looking at a 48Ch Duality.

My question is this - do the new ssl's like the Duality have the same 'mojo' as the old 4000 series etc?

Or should we be buying a s/hand older ssl? (like CLA's 4000G?)

[theother]

Originally Posted by samw@SSL

Regarding the other comment about the stopping of support for the 4000, unfortunately as we are an EU based manufacturer we are beholden to EU regulations regarding RoHS and WEE compliance. Sadly most of the 4000 series is not compliant and therefore we cannot supply it.

Perhaps you could lobby your M.E.P?

Best wishes,

Sam
Solid State Logic

Hi Sam

I know you can't sell new 4000 series anymore but I'm sure you could still supply spares and support. It's not a problem though. There are enough people out there who can maintain the 4000. And I know most of the companies who supplied SSL with the parts.
I asked SSL for a system disk for the G+ computer last year, when I bought my desk and they couldn't give me one.
The same for the user manuals (the desk came with none).
I'm sure this has nothing to do with RoHS and WEE compliance.

I didn't blame you or SSL for stopping support BTW. All I said was if the same happens to the Duality one day you are much better off with the 4000, because at least you are still able to fix it.

It almost sounds like I'm on a crusade against SSL but the only thing that winds me up is that SSL is so desperate to sell their latest Duality, AWS, etc that a lot of untruths get out there. I know some people got scared when purchasing 4000's with facts that are not true. If anything, you take quite a risk when buying the Duality. It's technology that has not the same track record like the 4000 series, be it sound, design or maintenance. It's not even been built by the same people & company who built the 4000. All they share is the name SSL.

A 4000/600/8000 can be fixed on the spot within 10 minutes for 90% of the usual problems that occur (I.e. spwapping an OP amp that sits on sockets in one of the channels). The same can't be said about the Duality, where you have to send channels & parts of the desk to SSL. Am I right?

If SSL would stick to the facts I had no problem with anything.

I think the Duality is a decent product (apart from a few things I personally don't like). So if you want to sell it there is no need to scare people who are looking into legacy SSL products. The 4000/6000/8000 and Duality sound like two opposite ends. The have almost nothing in common soundwise. Potential clients should sit down and test both formats. See what suits them best soundwise and featurewise. (the routing etc. it very different with the 4000 having a small fader, etc)

But it's time to buy these horror stories of no parts available for the 4000 and high electricity bills. Yes, that SSL withdrew support for the 4000 series (for what ever reason) certainly helped to convince some people to go for the Duality.

You are doing me actually a favour because that means there will me more spares available for my 4000 in the future.

Well that is odd as that sounds like just the surface, if you add in the rack as well you should be around 5000w or something is wrong.

What do you mean with 'add the rack as well'?

The rack IS the only thing that draws power. And it draws approx 2,000W.

2x PSU's for the desk, the changeover unit and the PSU for the computer. That's all there is for the desk. (see attached picture)

best

[divingduck]

Originally Posted by tigermuzik

has anyone (here) tried incorporating solar panels into the ssl situation?

Here you go:

Acoustic Recording Studio, London

Although it's only the baby SSL, I'm sure in a sunnier country and twice as many panels it must be doable for a 4000.... "save the planet, record at my studio" etc

[theother]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Hi ssl guru's

I am trying to talk my millionaire studio owner buddy into buying an SSL console when he designs his new control room.

Were looking at a 48Ch Duality.

My question is this - do the new ssl's like the Duality have the same 'mojo' as the old 4000 series etc?

Or should we be buying a s/hand older ssl? (like CLA's 4000G?)

The answer is: No.

I'm not saying the Duality is a bad desk, it just has nothing of the sound that the 4000/6000/8000 has. Which might be good for people who never got on with the 4000 series.

Don't get fooled by the E/G button on the Duality EQ. It's a totally different design than the 4000 series.

If anything the Duality sounds closer to a 9k series, but also not identical.

Even when you just listen to the summing on both desks with no EQ/compression engaged the desks are worlds apart.

The Duality sounds very clean almost a bit like ProTools mixes, but slightly bigger.

The 4000 instantly adds that SSL mojo that we are used to. Like or hate it, that's not the point. All I'm saying is be careful what you want. These two desks are miles apart from each other.

Also, what I like about the 4000 series, is that it still 'looks' like a proper mixing desk. You get that 'Wow!' from clients the moment they walk into the control room. The Duality looks more like a digital controller. Doesn't look as impressive and expensive.

[theother]

Originally Posted by divingduck

Here you go:

Acoustic Recording Studio, London

Although it's only the baby SSL, I'm sure in a sunnier country and twice as many panels it must be doable for a 4000.... "save the planet, record at my studio" etc

I spoke with someone working there and he said they can't even cover a fraction of the electricity with their panels. Is it a marketing gag? I don't know.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told they can't run the whole facility from solar power. Because that's what I thought.

I'm working in Spain a lot and 100% solar is possible for a 4000 SSL, but it very uneconomical. It's ridiculously expensive, even though I already accounted for 50% state subsidies.

Don't forget the batteries for the solar panels last only a few years and are very expensive & not environmentally friendly either.

[anguswoodhead]

Originally Posted by theother

The answer is: No.

I'm not saying the Duality is a bad desk, it just has nothing of the sound that the 4000/6000/8000 has. Which might be good for people who never got on with the 4000 series.

Don't get fooled by the E/G button on the Duality EQ. It's a totally different design than the 4000 series.

If anything the Duality sounds closer to a 9k series, but also not identical.

Even when you just listen to the summing on both desks with no EQ/compression engaged the desks are worlds apart.

The Duality sound very clean almost a bit like ProTools mixes, but slightly bigger.

The 4000 instantly adds that SSL mojo that we are used to. Like or hate it, that's not the point. All I'm saying is be careful what you want. These two desks are miles apart from each other.

Also, what I like about the 4000 series, is that it still 'looks' like proper mixing desk. You get that 'Wow!' from clients the moment they walk into the control room. The Duality looks more like a digital controller. Doesn't look as impressive and expensive.

Thanks 'theother'
Yeah I kinda suspected as much.
I guess the thing is to buy 2 x 4000's - the better one to use and the other to butcher for parts - right?
Is all the crapping on about power consumption and having to leave them on 24/7 for real?

[theother]

Originally Posted by anguswoodhead

Thanks 'theother'

Is all the crapping on about power consumption and having to leave them on 24/7 for real?

I'm not really sure about this. And there is not much real proof out there. People say they leave it 24/7 on but never tried to switch it off overnight.

When I had my first G+ a couple of years back, I switched off all the channel bays overnight and never had a single fault for 2 years.

I left the PSUs on and the centre section. I guess the PSU don't like switching on/off very much, neither do you want to have to repair the centre section. It's kind of difficult, so I didn't mess with it.

By switching off the channel bays I could switch off the A/C for the machine room (which had a window that I opened at night) and control room, so I saved quite a bit on electricity.

You probably save £100-£200 a month depending on your electricity cost.

Bear in mind my desk was a late G+ one. The older the desks get the more sensitive the are to switching on/off. Something I can't verify 100% but I'm still sure I'm right.

An old E series I would leave on 24/7 and only switch it off if there is no one in the studio for a week or longer. But then, I could be wrong again.

I know from a friend who has an old SSL B-Series that always something blows when he switches it on. Once its settled it works for weeks with no fault.

[The Byre]

It is threads like this one that put normal people off posting on forums!

It would be hard to find a thread out there with more nonsense and misinformation than this one.

The 'leave it on overnight' myth is as asinine as running in speakers and having directional arrows on speaker cable.

1. All MOS ICs are made by diffusing impurities into a silicon wafer. That diffusion never stops and when it reaches where it going the device will fail! Diffusion is a physical chemical process whose rate is determined by temperature. Perhaps if you only expect your electronic equipment to have a life of three years like a PC this is ok but it is best to turn the gear off when you are not using it.

2. The life span of caps is largely determined also by temperature. Leaving them on 24-7 will shorten their lifespan.

3. Your can read off the power consumption of the desk on your electric meter and the cost per kW-hr is on your electric bill. Also the power consumption is given in the documentation.

4. The tin in the new lead-free solder will grow out and short out adjacent connections on the very fine pitched IC leads and this process too speeds up at higher temperatures.

5. There is no EU directive preventing any manufacturer from supporting any of their desks just because there is old solder on them - SSL or any other manufacturer is perfectly free to support any product from any era. Fortunately, there are dozens of small service companies that will support your old desks, as long as they are not digital.

[theother]

Originally Posted by The Byre

5. There is no EU directive preventing any manufacturer from supporting any of their desks just because there is old solder on them - SSL or any other manufacturer is perfectly free to support any product from any era. Fortunately, there are dozens of small service companies that will support your old desks, as long as they are not digital.

I always suspected that. I think it was a good excuse for SSL to get out of their 9k series and into the much more profitable (for them) Duality.

By dropping support for the 4000/6000/8000 desks they were hoping to win over 4000 users or people looking into the 4000 second hand market.

Just a guess...

[theother]

Originally Posted by The Byre

Also the power consumption is given in the documentation.

No it isn't. The figures they give in the installation manual are not the average consumption.

There are a lot of misprints, too.

For example, for over 10 years they list the SSL computer (not the PSU, just the computer) as 100kg heavy, which of course it isn't. Its more like 20kg if at all.

[delcosmos]

Originally Posted by theother

I asked SSL for a system disk for the G+ computer last year, when I bought my desk and they couldn't give me one.
The same for the user manuals (the desk came with none).
I'm sure this has nothing to do with RoHS and WEE compliance.

I knew it!! Now I understand all this year of hate against SSL.

Originally Posted by theother

It almost sounds like I'm on a crusade against SSL but the only thing that winds me up is that SSL is so desperate to sell their latest Duality, AWS, etc that a lot of untruths get out there. I know some people got scared when purchasing 4000's with facts that are not true. If anything, you take quite a risk when buying the Duality. It's technology that has not the same track record like the 4000 series, be it sound, design or maintenance. It's not even been built by the same people & company who built the 4000. All they share is the name SSL.

Well, they are not THAT desperate at all, they have sold almost 100 Dualitys in a year, not to mention hundreds of AWS.

[delcosmos]

Originally Posted by theother

The Duality sound very clean almost a bit like ProTools mixes, but slightly bigger.

I disagree,

yes it is a Super analogue system (clean), but with tons of headroom (that you don't get just with a Protools alone) also, it is imposible that with 72 analogue compressors and gates, 72 analogue EQ'a, 72 VHD circuits and a quad buss compressor, in the end the Duality sounds like a pro tools system , I have spent year and a half with my Duality, I know what I'm talking about, how many time did you spent on one?

Originally Posted by theother

The Duality looks more like a digital controller. Doesn't look as impressive and expensive.

I disagree, this system looks impresive and expensive to me:




Oh! and there's more...


GERMANO, NY, RELIES ON DUALITY CONSOLES TO INTERFACE TRADITIONAL ANALOGUE AND CUTTING EDGE DIGITAL
Owner Troy Germano continues SSL Tradition with two Duality Consoles
NEW YORK — The highly anticipated Germano Studios New York opened recently in Manhattan’s NoHo district, becoming the first major studio facility to open in several years. Owned by former Hit Factory CEO Troy Germano, the studio includes two Solid State Logic Duality 48 channel consoles and a 32 input X-Rack monitor mixer with Total Recall™. Each console interfaces directly with Pro Tools HD3™ systems and a large compliment of carefully selected outboard gear. The studio has already hosted several well known artists, producers and engineers, including producer David Kahne, who with artist Matisyahu, became the studio’s first client.
“It was my goal to present a studio that addresses the needs of contemporary audio professionals and working methods,” says Germano. “The choice of console was clear as the Duality offers the quality sound of the flagship SSL analogue consoles combined with the on-console control of our Pro Tools systems. The merging of both new and classic equipment was paramount in my thought process and the combination of Duality and Pro Tools was the perfect choice.”
The new facility was designed by Troy’s Studio Design Group and UK-based White Mark, Ltd. The studio is the culmination of a design career that has included the Hit Factory Criteria in Miami, Red Bull North America, in Santa Monica, Calif. and the initial recording studio for New York University’s Tisch School of the Arts Clive Davis Department of Recorded Music. By 2002, the number of music studios under Troy’s supervision had grown to 16 recording/mixing rooms, six mastering suites and six writing rooms between New York and Florida, and in 2003 he won a TEC Award for Studio Design for Hit Factory New York’s new Studio 6.
Says Kahne, “The experience with working on the Duality was amazing as it sounds and feels like a 9000 K and you have complete control over the Pro Tools systems right on the console. Because of this control integration, our session became easier because there were fewer steps needed to accomplish the same goal. As one would expect, Germano Studios is completely pro in every aspect. With Duality, Troy can service clients that work completely in-the-box or use traditional tracking and mixing, and everything in between.” Kahne has produced projects with Regina Spektor, Paul McCartney, Carney and Lizzy Grant among many others.

“My intention from day one was to find that special location where creativity would be easier to achieve,” Germano explains. “With a private, musician-friendly atmosphere unique to New York City, the location in Noho is that exact space. No other studio in the U.S. offers two SSL Duality consoles with such large-scale Pro Tools systems that are inclusive of endless plug-ins as well as classic outboard gear and monitoring systems that are smooth, accurate and LOUD. We have had a continuing relationship with SSL over the years and the Duality console proves why SSL is always leading the industry.”

Germano Studios - State-of-the-art recording & mixing studios in the heart of Manhattan’s Noho district



This guy knows one or two things about clients and the "Wow" factor, why did he choose 2 dualitys instead of a 4000 for his new COMERCIAL facility in NYC?

[theother]

Haha! I knew you would come into this thread Armando!

Nice desk!

Hate is a big word and I don't hate anyone nor SSL, bless them.

Just getting to the bottom of some rumours that obviously aren't true.

SSL seems to use them to their advantage which shouldn't be necessary.

If the Duality is such a great desk, let it stand for what it is. There is no need to scare 4000 owners or potential owners.

Originally Posted by delcosmos

I knew it!! Now I understand all this year of hate against SSL.

No, you are wrong. This only happened a few months ago. The manuals and floppy.
Actually in the end Richard from SSL (bless him) found a couple of last manuals after I begged him for months to find some for me.

[theother]

Originally Posted by delcosmos

I disagree,

yes it is a Super analogue system (clean), but with tons of headroom (that you don't get just with a Protools alone) also, it is imposible that with 72 analogue compressors and gates, 72 analogue EQ'a, 72 VHD circuits and a quad buss compressor, in the end the Duality sounds like a pro tools system , I have spent year and a half with my Duality, I know what I'm talking about, how many time did you spent on one?

Yes, it has more headroom than PT. But the 4000 series has a lot more colouration/mojo just by bringing up the faders, without any need for the VHD.

I only referred to the summing aspect of the desk and not everything.
The summing is much cleaner, which is good for some people but not everyone.

You need a lot more outboard with the Duality to give it 'a sound' than with a 4000 series. Again, not necessary a bad thing.

You seem to have pretty much everything there is outboard wise, so I'm sure it's working well for you.

I have nothing against the Duality. It just annoys me that people talk so much bullshit when it comes to facts like electricity, maintenance costs and reasons why SSL dropped 4000 support.

This guy knows one or two things about clients and the "Wow" factor, why did he choose 2 dualitys instead of a 4000 for his new COMERCIAL facility in NYC?

Time will tell if he did the right thing. In the UK it would be a bad move. None of the 9K studios was/is making any money and all the 4000 rooms are booked full.
People don't like the sounds of 9Ks in the UK and neither do the bands here, which I can understand.
The Duality sounds almost identical to a 9k which of course is very popular in the States, for a reason I can't find. But then, things were always different in the States from here in London.

[delcosmos]

Originally Posted by theother

In the UK it would be a bad move. None of the 9K studios was/is making any money and all the 4000 rooms are booked full.
People don't like the sounds of 9Ks in the UK and neither do the bands here, which I can understand.

The Duality sounds almost identical to a 9k which of course is very popular in the States, for a reason I can't find. But then, things were always different in the States from here in London.

Well as far as I know, Coldplay is a British band and they mixed with Mr. Brauer on a 9k.

Please don't get me wrong, of course the 4000 is a superb mixer with a signature sound, last week Tom Lord Alge mixed 2 songs for me on a 4000 and the sound is fantastic, obviously it's the driver not the car (but that's another story).

Duality is making it's own history, as you say, only time will tell but in the mean time almost 100 Dualitys are Rockin' around the world!

Best regards.

delcosmos.

[theother]

delcosmos, don't make it sound like this is a competition, because it isn't!

There are many different ways and flavours in music and it's good.

Wouldn't it be boring if we all use and love the same things?

With Brauer, the thing is, first... the man is a genius,... and then he has his soundtowers.

It's exactly what I said. If you work on a Duality/9k you need lots of outboard for colour & mojo.

This is not a fact, just one's man opinion...

[delcosmos]

Originally Posted by theother

delcosmos, don't make it sound like this is a competition, because it isn't!

There are many different ways and flavours in music and it's good.

Wouldn't it be boring if we all use and love the same things?

With Brauer, the thing is, first... the man is a genius,... and then he has his soundtowers.

It's exactly what I said. If you work on a Duality/9k you need lots of outboard for colour & mojo.

This is not a fact, just one's man opinion...

No! I don't want to make it sound like competition, I just like this eternal debate , as I told you, I like the sound of a 4000.

I completely agree with you: There are many different ways and flavors in music and its good.

Best regards.

delcosmos.