ATC SCM20 ASL or BAREFOOT MM27

[uylink]

ok let's start by this...i'm in country where i can't try MM27 but i can go to listen to scm20 asl at the dealer (and i'll go to the shop about in 2 day)....i read a lot of good things about mm27 and have budget already to buy it...but as i explain , i can't listen to mm27..all i can is just buy it from vintageking or some other shop in US and ship it to my country...so i just need some opinion on these 2 monitor from who had listen to both...what's strong point and what's weak point when compete two of them

thank you...

[passdesj]

IMHO, the Barefoots look like a better deal anyways....

Never heard any of them, but as far as I read a LOT about both of them :

The ATC's are sold for 8000-8500 $ !!! And you will surely need a sub....And a few people thinks they are a little overpriced...

The Micromains.... did you EVER read something wrong about them ? And you save the purchase of a sub...

I did a lot of research, and since I can't afford the Barefoots, and don't need a lot of power, I'm going with B+H O300.....

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by passdesj

..... I'm going with B+H O300.....

Don't you mean K+H O300 ?

[MIKEHARRIS]

Originally Posted by passdesj

Never heard any of them, but as far as I read a LOT about both of them :

Never mix with your eyes !!!!!!!

[pramrod]

though i know nothing about the barefoots, i can definitively say that, IMHO, the ATC SCM20 ASL's absolutely kick major azz... major. they are so clear and clean and don't compress. you will pry them from my cold dead hands. i'm now scheming on getting the ATC 110's for my big bad boyzz... enjoy pram

p.s. at a recent AES show i had the opportunity to chat with Billy Woodman, mr. atc, and was telling him how much i love my 20asl's. his response was a huge smile and "i really got it right with that box". it's my understanding that the 20's were used in the remasters of dark side of the moon too, which is gonna do it for me... listening that day at aes to the ATC 110's with floyd in surround off of the sonoma was life changing!

[Fletcher]

The ONLY way you should evaluate what will arguably be the most important tool in your arsenal of weapons is to mix on them and make an educated decision. Listening to a CD at a dealer's is a waste of time... reading the crap that's written on forums is an even bigger waste of time.

The thing about monitors is that they are a PRODUCTION tool... which means that they are used in the production of your music. While listening back to a CD is a great way to purchase RE-production speakers, it's at best a shitty way to audition studio monitors.

In my experience [I've been down this road probably 10-15 times over my career] I've found that different monitors will push you in different directions as an engineer. Some that people on these boards absolutely rave about were absolutely useless to me. Some that I absolutely rave about are absolutely useless to others.

Guess what?

We're all right!!

I need monitors that push me in this direction or that direction... other engineers require monitors that push them away from this direction more towards that direction... and no two people hear alike nor do they have the same sense of aesthetic.

I have found over the years that most of the speaker sets I end up choosing for my studio reference monitors I wouldn't have in my home for love nor money... and that the speakers on which I listen to music [who am I kiddin'... I mostly listen to the TV] are absolutely, patentely, unequivocably unsuitable for my work environment.

You're really talking about the most important tool in your studio... the tool that will define the sound of your studio, the tool that will define the sound of your work. You really owe it to yourself to get whatever "contenders" you may be considering into your studio, do several mixes on them, and then evaluate how those mixes translate to the outside world.

I check out how the work references in my car... in my girlfriend's car... on my kid's system at home, on my system at home... more than a couple of times I've been known to go to a HiFi shop and pretend I'm shopping for home speakers just to listen to how my mixes reference on a bunch of different systems that are unfamiliar [also known as a "real world reference check"].

I listen for what happens to the balance and clarity of the bass when I take the music out of my control room... what's going on with the 'sparkle' on the cymbals [or lack thereof]... do the balances change within the midrange [the character of the midrange is going to change on EVERY "home quality" system you try... it's a question of whether or not the balances change].

A week or two ago I had the honor and privledge to tour the factory of a speaker manufacturer. I got to listen to some stuff I had mixed two days before [still a rough mix but something that is currently in production with which I'm intimately familiar]. I got to hear the music I was working on some "home HiFi" stuff as well as a couple of "production" systems. Again, they were radically different. I got to hear my stuff on a couple of sets of $2-7,000 "HiFi" speakers as well as a $180,000 [not a typo!! ...some of these people are out of the freakin' minds!!!] set of speakers [with a set of $75,000 amplifiers... I'm sure the cables were $20-30k as well... real dumbass shit but I digress].

What I took from all of that was that I had mixed the music I brought over translated really well. The characters of all the speakers were slightly different... but the mixes held true on all of them. One of the guys brought a ton of stuff... some he engineered, some done by "famous" mix engineers [pre-mastering]. I was able to hear stuff in both that I thought should have been changed a bit in mastering [and I hope they felt the same way about my stuff... that's why there are mastering engineers... no?].

My point being that the "production" tools referenced well outside of my regular environment. There were a couple of other guys work I heard on this trip where [as far as I was concerned] the engineers making the product [music] should seriously consider different monitors as the playback was all over the place in terms of the balances and textures... but again, I digress.

Bottom line... if I was you [which I ain't] I'd spend what ever it took to get whatever I was considering into my room and check it out on my work and make sure the work references in the real world... but I ain't you... so read on my brother and best of luck with your search.

Peace.

[barefoot]

Hi uylink,

Here's a post by the lead engineer for Third Eye Blind studio here in San Francisco. Barefoot MM27 compare to ? He gives a fairly detailed assessment of several monitors including the SCM20 and the MM27.

Thomas

[uylink]

S3A is arriving at my room today (for demo)
and the SCM 20ASL will be arrive on friday
after 2 hours with S3A i found that it's not lacking the low end like i thought it would (from what i've read)...
and after trying quick mix, i end with the mix that seems to have well balance than i ever got...
but i feel there's sometime i have to guess eq'ing
so i hope to see what the 20ASL will effect my mix this friday...
and i will post what i think about them again...
thank you...

[anseo]

Originally Posted by uylink

S3A is arriving at my room today (for demo)
and the SCM 20ASL will be arrive on friday
after 2 hours with S3A i found that it's not lacking the low end like i thought it would (from what i've read)...
and after trying quick mix, i end with the mix that seems to have well balance than i ever got...
but i feel there's sometime i have to guess eq'ing
so i hope to see what the 20ASL will effect my mix this friday...
and i will post what i think about them again...
thank you...

Yes please get back to us. Fletcher's post is absolutely spot-on, but for practical reasons I need to narrow down my list of contenders.

[Audiop]

A small MTM (midrange-tweeter-midrange) may sound good, however one could argue that it is less suitable as a monitor. There will be a dip in the midrange power/room response even if it measures linear on axis.

For increased dynamics and lower distortion an MMT layout is wiser if two mids is used. Or.. one could tailor the whole speaker to have a narrow vertical dispersion but that means MMTMM layout.

Just my 2 pesetas!


/Peter

[Loki]

Since the Adam S3A was brought up...

Besides the mix situation, one of my other quibbles with speakers is how large the "sweet spot" is. I find moving my head about or if entertaining clients for a listen, it can play a fairly important part if you're not running mains as well. This sweet spot is both side-to-side and depth of field.

One of my issues with the Adam S3A is I find the sweet spot very, very small which means a very fixed head position and moving out of the way (and placing the client in the same head space) during playbacks.

Just something also to keep in mind. These issues also arise because the sweet spot is affected by comb-filtering from a console also.

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by passdesj

IMHO, the Barefoots look like a better deal anyways....

Never heard any of them, but as far as I read a LOT about both of them :

The ATC's are sold for 8000-8500 $ !!! And you will surely need a sub....And a few people thinks they are a little overpriced...

The Micromains.... did you EVER read something wrong about them ? And you save the purchase of a sub...

I did a lot of research, and since I can't afford the Barefoots, and don't need a lot of power, I'm going with B+H O300.....

They ATC's 20ASL's are NOT sold for 8500-they list for 8500 in the US and 4000GBP in the UK. I don't know of any pair I ever sold (or one of my dealers sold) at list.

They are expensive but they are unique and nothing else works quite like them. The SL woofer is a very different animal than any other, dropping 3rd harmonic distortion by a LOT...there is a tremendous amount of technology inside beyond that. Cast aluminum cabinets, FET limiters, hi power amplifiers, the flatest phase response of any small monitor you'll ever see, ideal even and steady 12 db per octave roll off on the low end etc etc.

If you could buy one pair of small monitors and never buy another pair-the rest of your working life-and that pair translates perfectly and the clients tell you that your mixes sound better than any you've ever done-would that be worth one big investment? I read so much angst about speakers this speakers that, in this room, in that room-when you buy ATC"s you are done. The clients don't think worry or buy speakers anymore. We just sold a pair of 50's and then 20s to Niko Bolas, story just sent out the other day and posted to our site. He told me he has hated speakers for 30 years, never found one pair he loved, always a problem, until ATCs. That's what ATC is all about.


Brad

[uylink]

and today scm 20 asl arrived
first i set it up and play some cd on
it didn't give me wow like s3a does to me
many cd i love seems less excite on them
the bass seems not enough and maybe i couldn't made right decision with the low freq in my mix
ok i start to test it in the mix and began to find that how easy for me to
seek problems in my mix
between kick and bass sometime it's hard to blend it on 20asl because the bass is like it's always won't be enough...and if i add to much on bass..i won't know it too..because i feel it's hard to tell what's going on...
so i mix with the kick louder than the bass a little, and try to make the bass just audible just i feel it gonna make sense...
20asl push me to clear some harsh on middle things like guitar and push me to try to spread it out to left and right more than i feel i should before...
after an hour..i feel very easy working on it...and i feel enough and have confident to try it A/B with the mix from s3a i did 2 days ago...
and i found mix from 20 asl have fuller and clearer to me...
so i thought i'm gonna buy the 20 asl...
but i may re-work and re-check these 2 sets of speakers again...
because i'm afraid that i'm gonna miss the low end form s3a if i'm going to skip it and buy 20asl...
so i will try to build a mix on s3a again on other genre of songs before i will can sure to judge these 2 monsters...
anyway i feel this will gonna make very step up for my work for sure no matter i'll choose s3a or 20asl...i feel i was thinking right about to invest in the higher-end monitor than i use before (i'm adam P22 user)
(i still think about mm27 but since i can't demo it in my country..so how can i know them...so sad...)
i'll post again about my decision to buy
sorry for bad english
thank you...

[MIKEHARRIS]

Thanks for taking the time and using your ears.

So often folks here tend to like what they have read.

Auditioning a monitor in your room with your equipment & the kinds of music you do is the only valid way to choose a monitor

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by uylink

and today scm 20 asl arrived
first i set it up and play some cd on
<SNIP>
many cd i love seems less excite on them
<SNIP> i'll post again about my decision to buy
sorry for bad english
thank you...

This was my experience the first time I heard them! But from reading your post, you get it. The low end issue is also common, it will get better for you with time as its a steady 12db rolloff from useable limit-so its predictable.

Try one more thing important with 20asl : off axis response (ie. such as more than one person in the room or at the console). This can affect things in a big way. ATC thinks that the reflections/bounces (off axis response) need to be as close to on axis response as possible. If off axis is different than on axis, then your bounces/reflections are different and can really affect if it sounds good in this room but not that one, in this spot but not that one, etc. Another way to say that is, Decisions made in this spot in this room are good but decisions made in that spot in this room are not good, etc etc. Its more than just top end off axis, its also about midrange off axis.

This is not brought up as a negative about another speaker as in some situations the off axis issue is not crucial (such as when a mix engineer works completely solo at low levels in a dead room). But it many instances it explains why things work they way they do. The off axis issue is often not understood or apparent to all but is one of the key points in making ATC what it is to those that do notice it.

Brad

[music friend]

Brad-
What sub would you recommend with the ATCs?

[Brad Lunde]

Originally Posted by music friend

Brad-
What sub would you recommend with the ATCs?

I've had clients use just about everything successfully. I've not had a comment that this sub didn't work or that one did. Sometimes I hear another branded sub won't play as loud as the 20's (108dB SPL long term).

I think if you want something on par with the 20asl in quality then the ATC 1-15sl is the best I know of but I don't think its required to have the 20's work for you.

Brad

[theother]

I love my ATC 20's and find they have a lot of bass. They go lower in a very transparent way than most other nearfields. They can be also much louder than Adams without clipping. You must check your room for a proper bass response before judging speakers.

I do have to say I usually have to raise the bass pot at the back of the ATCs to the full level for a correct bass setting in my room though.

I wouldn't go for a sub with the ATC20, but then I always have a big set of speakers with 12" or 15" drivers at hand for low end checks.

The end of the day I would go with what feels right for you and ignore what everyone else likes...

I wouldn't buy any speakers without testing them anymore.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by anseo

Fletcher's post is absolutely spot-on, but for practical reasons I need to narrow down my list of contenders.

Thank you.

I'm not a manufacturer, I'm not a distributor, I work for a dealer... but more than that I fancy myself an engineer [fortunately, so do my clients]. I know what works for me [they're listed on our company's website] but I have no idea what will work for you.

Every manufacturer [distributor, dealer, etc.] can go on and on and on with the "waka waka" tech babble explanation of why _____ speaker is best.

waka waka ... the proof is in the mixes... END OF STORY.

Best of luck with your search.

Peace.

[toolz]

+1 for ATC 20's

In the context of a nearfield they are hard to beat, augmented here with a larger set of Dynaudio M2's for checking downstairs.

[barefoot]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I'm not a manufacturer, I'm not a distributor, I work for a dealer... but more than that I fancy myself an engineer [fortunately, so do my clients]. I know what works for me [they're listed on our company's website] but I have no idea what will work for you.

Every manufacturer [distributor, dealer, etc.] can go on and on and on with the "waka waka" tech babble explanation of why _____ speaker is best.

waka waka ... the proof is in the mixes... END OF STORY.

Sounds like a good recipe for groping blindly in the dark for the right gear. I think many can actually benefit from educating themselves about WHY some gear works for them and some doesn't. Taking the time to understand all the "waka waka" can help us separate the meat from the entrails and intelligently narrow our choices. I guess your approach is ok, if you happen to work for a dealer and lots of products pass through your room anyway. Many don't have that luxury. I also wonder how we should weigh your opinion in this particular thread considering you have no experience with the MM27 as far as I can tell. SCM20...?

[philosi]

Originally Posted by anseo

Yes please get back to us. Fletcher's post is absolutely spot-on, but for practical reasons I need to narrow down my list of contenders.

Then narrow them down and get the Barefoots....

The best part about getting a pair of the MM27's is, now I'm able to forget about monitors and obsess on limiters.

[DannyMac]

If you want more bass, Go for the 50's. will cost around the same as a sub +sats, but is a better intergrated sound. One point about the ATC's is they run HOT. at my old studio, the amps alone would make the heating redundant after an hr or 2

[uylink]

ok i buy the scm20asl
it's great to my work
thank you for every opinion from you guys...

[darkwater]

+1 for the Barefoots!

The sweet spot is HUGE on these. I did a 5.1 mix with a pair in the L and R positions ( and a lesser speaker to fill in the rest) and whenever I moved out of the middle, all the others just... went away, but those damn Barefoots were right there, all the time! Damnedest thing I ever heard. They are "damned" because I can afford a full 5.1 setup with all Barefoots.

Damn.

[James Lehmann]

I suggest we make Fletcher's excellent post a sticky and paste links to it into every single thread about monitors on this Forum now and for evermore - the last word on choosing monitors! (haha!)

However, I'd take issue with his rather generalised throw-away line that "reading the crap that's written on forums is... a waste of time".

Clearly in the area of subjective sound quality the opinion of others is of limited value because sound quality is so, er... subjective and we're all working in such different rooms. But I think in terms of issues like reliability & durability etc first-hand user-feedback can be really useful. For example, there was a thread recently about Pro-Ac drivers being a little too easy to blow - now that's something that could be a deal-breaker for someone with a mobile rig or planning to record whale noises off Greenland for a month, regardless of how great they sound. Customer service is another area that can definitely influence a purchase decision. I don't think it's a waste of time to read up on issues like this on a decent Forum such as Gearslutz, as long as one does so with a discerning eye for BS and a healthy leaning towards the comments of folks who are prepared to hold themselves accountable by posting under their real names.

[DannyMac]

I have not heard the MM27s, but I have never heard a bad mix come off ANY ATC's

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by DannyMac

...... I have never heard a bad mix come off ANY ATC's

I have!

(by a crappy mixer)