what 1/2 " tape to use for mix?

[electric]

hi,
going to mix some projects soon. the genre is hiphop. (through a neve 8000 series console to an ampex atr-102 )

the 1/2" i know about is quantegy

456
499
gp9

are any best suited for bass heavy/high energy music? are there other brands/types that are better?

is the extra $$$ of the gp9 worth it? what kind of tape are the prosp mixing down hip hop with these days?

also - should we run the 2 track at 15 ips or 30 ips? how about using dolby nr stuff? i am new to this. need to order tape stat! any help appreciated.


electric

[Groove Dog]

ok...

456 is +6 tape, meaning you can push it 6dB above 0VU before saturation.

499 and GP9 are +9 tape, meaning you can push it 9dB above 0VU before saturation.

GP9 is the big favorite for a number of reasons, not the least of which is how hot you can get it and how long the tape will last in storage.

sonically... 456 is nice, but you can't get it as hot as the others. 499 is my favorite; it's not as rough to my ears as the GP9.
i've mixed a lot of records to an ATR-102 on both 499 and GP9 - you're not going to loose out either way.

now... 15ips is noisier and fatter.
30ips is quieter and flatter.

you're doing hip hop - unless it's old-school eclectic (how much is that word thrown around these days?) stuff, i don't know why you wouldn't mix to digital. i love tape as much as anyone, but hip hop is pretty precice stuff, and digital's usually (IMHO) the way to go.

the low end bump at 15ips is by no means tight or punchy, so i'd say go with the 30ips standard.

oh, and dolby is the devil.
seriously though, with good tape, good electronics, and good mixes, there's no reason on earth to use dolby.

hope that helps a little.

[NathanEldred]

I like Emtec 900 or Quantegy 499. I don't really like 456, GP9, or 911 as much.

[Silver Sonya]

I concur with Nathan. Emtec 900 is my favorite formulation.

--- chad

[electric]

good feedback. may take some experimenting. our music is by no means standard triton patches with a few sampled kicks/snares off vinly. its all sampled pitched/grainy etc. the lyrics are the only "modern" sounding part to anything . (tracked though mp2nv with sdelux u195/dbx 160x) we are also going to mix to digital in parallel through a lavry ad converter (to dat i would guess, not sure). so this way we get the best of both world and can send both to the mastering house and see what happens.

i dont think durability is that big a deal because we are basically mixing on them once and pretty much sending to the mastering house right after. (knock on wood)

why do mixes sound "fatter" at the slower speed? does tape saturation rear its little head more at slower speeds? do things happen like improved bass but degraded hi freq at slower speeds?

i probably need to just shut up and try it for myself! we are trying to plan ahead as much as possible for this. (spending all the $$$ we got).

any other people out there mixing hiphop to tape?i have heard some big producers still swear by it. (or maybe its tracking to tape - not sure)

electric

[paterno]

Originally posted by Groove Dog
ok...

456 is +6 tape, meaning you can push it 6dB above 0VU before saturation.

499 and GP9 are +9 tape, meaning you can push it 9dB above 0VU before saturation.

GP9 is the big favorite for a number of reasons, not the least of which is how hot you can get it and how long the tape will last in storage.

sonically... 456 is nice, but you can't get it as hot as the others. 499 is my favorite; it's not as rough to my ears as the GP9.
i've mixed a lot of records to an ATR-102 on both 499 and GP9 - you're not going to loose out either way.

now... 15ips is noisier and fatter.
30ips is quieter and flatter.

you're doing hip hop - unless it's old-school eclectic (how much is that word thrown around these days?) stuff, i don't know why you wouldn't mix to digital. i love tape as much as anyone, but hip hop is pretty precice stuff, and digital's usually (IMHO) the way to go.

the low end bump at 15ips is by no means tight or punchy, so i'd say go with the 30ips standard.

oh, and dolby is the devil.
seriously though, with good tape, good electronics, and good mixes, there's no reason on earth to use dolby.

hope that helps a little.

You've got quite a few mis-statements here.

The +6/+9 thing is referring to the alignment level, not the maximum level. The maximum level a tape will take is going to be determined much more by how you set up the tape machine, than by the type of tape.

GP9 has not been around long enough to determine if it will hold up to your 'long term storage' statement. It is a big favorite because Quategy is the only game left since EMTEC is no more.

the low end bump is going to be dependent on the tape machine and the heads. It will be a lower frequency at 15ips relative to the same machine at 30ips. It is also different with 1/4 vs. 1/2 heads.

Dobly IS NOT the devil. It works when you take the time to set it up right. There are a lot of applications -- like acoustic music @ 15ips where Dolby can be fantastic -- both tracking and mixing.

As for the original question, if you can get EMTEC 900 then that is the way to go (set up the machine @ +6/185).

If not, 456 would be my choice at +4 or +5 over 185.

499 in my opinon does not sound very good. It clouds up the lower mids...


Cheers,
John

[paterno]

Originally posted by electric

why do mixes sound "fatter" at the slower speed? does tape saturation rear its little head more at slower speeds? do things happen like improved bass but degraded hi freq at slower speeds?

electric

That's kind of the idea. Think about it -- you using twice as much surface area at 30ips than at 15ips for a song. It is not that the mixes are 'fatter' as much as the high end response is quite different at the different speeds. In theory, 30ips will be a higher 'resolution' because you are using more surface area to store the audio on. The 'improved bass' idea is probably because the head bump at 15 is lower at a lower frequency than at 30.

Cheers,
John

[toolstudio]

Hi Electric,

I work with GP9 almost exclusiv.

GP9 2" on the Studer A800 MkIII
GP9 1/2" to the Studer A820

Always 30ips, no NR

Can't comment for the Ampex 102, we only had one rented for a session in the past, but used BASF 900. Worked pretty well, in my experience the GP9 is more dynamic and quieter.

Let me know your experience...

wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

[Groove Dog]

From the Quantegy site:

Recommended Maximum Operating Levels

Quantegy GP9 - 520 nW/m +9

Quantegy 499 - 520 nW/m +9

Quantegy 456 - 370 nW/m +6

Quantegy 478/480 - 250 nW/m +3

Quantegy 406 - 250 nW/m +3


i absolutely agree that how you align the machine has much more impact than the tape you choose, but alignment is calculated on MAXIMUM operating level of the tape.

Originally posted by paterno:
"The maximum level a tape will take is going to be determined much more by how you set up the tape machine, than by the type of tape."

tape is just dumb plastic, glue and rust. different types have different max operating levels which are inherent properties of the tape. nothing you touch on the machine is going to change that. period. You can certainly set your record lever or your sync/repro calibration hotter or cooler, and that will certainly effect how hot you’re going to tape and how you monitor it, but as far as the tape itself goes, it’s just dumb tape

Analog Tape Calibration
by Ken Lanyon (Slider)
"So what exactly is tape calibration? This is essentially adjusting the VU meters for each track during playback and record so that they read the optimum levels for the type of tape you are using. This is very important to getting a good sound because different types of tapes can handle different recording levels. For example, Quantegy 456 can be recorded with a +6db signal (that is +6 above 0db magnetic level that Ampex corporation established as "0" in the 1950's) while Quantegy 499 can take a +9 signal."


as far as GP9 not being around long enough... the first time i used GP9 i called up quantegy, and they put me in touch with the engineer who designed it. in addition to calibration tips, he went into how the tape was designed to last much (i think he said about 2x) longer than previous products. so that's where i get that info from.

as far as dolby being the devil... that's just my opinion in terms of mixing to a master tape. tracking to a 24 track at 15ips on 456 is a great time to use dolby... but i don't know anyone with a nice clean tape machine (especially that sweet 102 you've got there) who would want to print their mixes with noise reduction these days.

[electric]

i ordered 4 reels of 499 yesterday...looks like i'm committed.

thanks all

[paterno]

Originally posted by Groove Dog
From the Quantegy site:

Recommended Maximum Operating Levels

Quantegy GP9 - 520 nW/m +9

Quantegy 499 - 520 nW/m +9

Quantegy 456 - 370 nW/m +6



tape is just dumb plastic, glue and rust.

Sorry Groove Dog,

i absolutely agree that how you align the machine has much more impact than the tape you choose, but alignment is calculated on MAXIMUM operating level of the tape.

Alignment is NOT 'calculated' this way. Why do you think these are referred to as 'MAXIMIUM OPERATING LEVELS' anyway? You can align where you want, but the maximums are given as a guideline -- that's it.

different types have different max operating levels which are inherent properties of the tape. nothing you touch on the machine is going to change that. period. You can certainly set your record lever or your sync/repro calibration hotter or cooler, and that will certainly effect how hot you’re going to tape and how you monitor it, but as far as the tape itself goes, it’s just dumb tape

Setting the calibration is exactly what aligning and setting a reference level is all about. What goes into the tape machine comes out at the same level it went in. And you are correct in that tape type has specific properties. You can change how the tape will react -- you can definitely change how hard you hit the tape by your alignment, and thus ABSOLUTELY affect how hot you are hitting the tape. You are turning up the input while turning down the output when you are aligning to a higher reference level.

Analog Tape Calibration
by Ken Lanyon (Slider)
"So what exactly is tape calibration? This is essentially adjusting the VU meters for each track during playback and record so that they read the optimum levels for the type of tape you are using. This is very important to getting a good sound because different types of tapes can handle different recording levels. For example, Quantegy 456 can be recorded with a +6db signal (that is +6 above 0db magnetic level that Ampex corporation established as "0" in the 1950's) while Quantegy 499 can take a +9 signal."


Ken Lanyon? Who's Ken Lanyon? Whoever he is, his definition is 'essentially' WRONG. Tape machine calibration is the adjusting of playback and record amplifiers so that the input is the same level as the output at a given tape reference level. The reference level is deteremined by whoever is aligning the machine, or whoever specifies the alignment. Just because a tape can 'take' a maximum level does not mean it should be set up for that level all the time! The whole '+6 dB signal' sentence is at best an oversimplification of things.

as far as GP9 not being around long enough... the first time i used GP9 i called up quantegy, and they put me in touch with the engineer who designed it. in addition to calibration tips, he went into how the tape was designed to last much (i think he said about 2x) longer than previous products. so that's where i get that info from.


It still does not mean it is true. I put a reel of Ampex tape from the 70's and it played fine. I put up a real from the 80's, and it stuck to the heads in three revolutions! The only way this guy could know for sure is if he had a time machine. Each batch of tape is different, let alone the type --because the formula of rust, plastic, and binder needed to make a particular formulation has to be adjusted with every batch, based on the manufacturing specs.

as far as dolby being the devil... that's just my opinion in terms of mixing to a master tape. tracking to a 24 track at 15ips on 456 is a great time to use dolby... but i don't know anyone with a nice clean tape machine (especially that sweet 102 you've got there) who would want to print their mixes with noise reduction these days.

You are right, it is your opinion. I know of several people that mix to 15ips 1/2" and 1/4", who use dolby. On very well maintained 102's as a matter of fact...

I'm not trying to bust your chops here, just trying to get the facts seperated from the opinions. There is an art to tape machine alignment, but there is also a lot of science.

Cheers,
John

[chadly]

Originally posted by paterno
[
as far as GP9 not being around long enough... the first time i used GP9 i called up quantegy, and they put me in touch with the engineer who designed it. in addition to calibration tips, he went into how the tape was designed to last much (i think he said about 2x) longer than previous products. so that's where i get that info from.


It still does not mean it is true. I put a reel of Ampex tape from the 70's and it played fine. I put up a real from the 80's, and it stuck to the heads in three revolutions! The only way this guy could know for sure is if he had a time machine. Each batch of tape is different, let alone the type --because the formula of rust, plastic, and binder needed to make a particular formulation has to be adjusted with every batch, based on the manufacturing specs.

Having done numerous tape transfers I can't agree with this more. I was blown away that the early 80's tape went to shit so quickly, while the early 70's stuff played just as well as my new 456!

[Norman Lindsey]

i ordered 4 reels of 499 yesterday...looks like i'm committed.

499 is fine, you should be able to go in quite hot if everything is aligned right.there's nothing like the scent of a fresh reel straight out of the box.

[Plush]

Interesting thread, but one FILLED with junk knowledge.
The descriptions and citations by Groove Dog are, indeed, simply wrong.


When 3M abandoned the tape business, Ampex (now Quantegy)
purchased certain rights to use 3M technology.

GP9 is Quantegy's version of 3M 996. In fact, it IS 996, also a
+9 tape.

Properly aligned Dolby is just fine on a mix down. Anyone who says it is not, does not know how to align either their tape machine or is unfamiliar with Dolby tones/bursts.

Our vote is for Emtec 900, now sadly not made anymore (but certainly available!)

[84K]

Originally posted by NathanEldred
I like Emtec 900 or Quantegy 499. I don't really like 456, GP9, or 911 as much.

Amen

[Steffmo]

I have to chime in on the Emtec 900 thing. Great tape for both multi and mix.

Maybe its my imagination but on my 2" Studer it seems to wind better than 499, and I never get bad reels with Emtec. Quantegy never wants to discuss it, but I get lots of funky reels from them.

Would be great if someone picked up the rights to 900 for manufacture, but at this point it seems unlikey. Fortunately its still pretty available.

Whoever said 499 was cloudy in the low mids ...I have to agree. Whenrver I have to go back to an old reel of 456 I notice how good it soundes for rock, especially guitars.