ES-8 or manley Varimu or STC-8 for electronic music

[deft_bonz]

hi guys

which one would you recommend me for electroni music from lounge, chill out to house and techno?

a pendulum es-8 (resp 6386) or manly varimu or crane song stc-8?

i'll mostly use it for programm compression and drum buss, maybe also for some acoustical instruments and individual sounds.

btw i could get a the 6386 version from the ES-8 for a good deal.

i'm also open for new ideas and propositions.

thanks a lot, deft:::

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
hi guys

which one would you recommend me for electroni music from lounge, chill out to house and techno?

a pendulum es-8 (resp 6386) or manly varimu or crane song stc-8?

i'll mostly use it for programm compression and drum buss, maybe also for some acoustical instruments and individual sounds.

btw i could get a the 6386 version from the ES-8 for a good deal.

i'm also open for new ideas and propositions.

thanks a lot, deft:::

First of all who says you need compression to do those styles of music?

Basically it sounds you are asking for a compressor that does everything well and no one really does.

Each have their quirks.

What they are great at and not.

Of the 3 the STC-8 is the most neutral, but it wouldn't be my first choice on certain things.

The Vari-Mu while great sounding, can put its signature on everything making it not as versatile.

The Pendulumn while it has the both the characteristics of the 2 above has tubes that are hard to find.

The secret is the old Hi End gearslut adage: You need a couple of different one's.

Some comps do drums great, but i would never have them touch a vocal.

Some comps do vocals and bass well, but they aren't fast or hard enough for drums or the mixbuss.

Some comps sound great at first, but you quickly realize that when you stockpile that one sound it eats up your mix.

Some comps while transparent can lack a certain something which an instrument needs to make it stand out.

I think you get the picture by now.

By the way if i could have one or 2 to add to the list it would be the Focusrite Blue 230 and the SSL FX 384.

Honorable mention to the Smart C2 and Neve 33609.

[deft_bonz]

i don't need compression for dynamic control but more for the sound they give and that they glue bussounds together. last but not least i might use it for mastering application. or as i've mentioned before for tracking acoustical instruments and vocals. it could be that i'm going to track more acoustical instruments with such hardware. until now i wasn't able to do that in a superior quality. this way i could open my studio also for clients who'd like to mixdown in smaller studio for less money, but still recieves a superior sound quality.

i could describe the sound i'd like to have for my own electronic music: it should sound punchy and can be a little bit agressive.

i know unfortunately that i should have more of them. but somewhere i have to start and personally i tend to get the pendulum. maybe it's silly but because i'm also going to buy a massive passive, i think two manley units would "sound" too similar for a beginner like, who has to choose only one from each section (dyn, eq, converter etc). what do you think?

i've also thought about the c2 and the api 2500. perhaps i can save enough money with used gear that i'll be able to get a second compressor.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
i don't need compression for dynamic control but more for the sound they give and that they glue bussounds together. last but not least i might use it for mastering application. or as i've mentioned before for tracking acoustical instruments and vocals. it could be that i'm going to track more acoustical instruments with such hardware. until now i wasn't able to do that in a superior quality. this way i could open my studio also for clients who'd like to mixdown in smaller studio for less money, but still recieves a superior sound quality.

i could describe the sound i'd like to have for my own electronic music: it should sound punchy and can be a little bit agressive.

i know unfortunately that i should have more of them. but somewhere i have to start and personally i tend to get the pendulum. maybe it's silly but because i'm also going to buy a massive passive, i think two manley units would "sound" too similar for a beginner like, who has to choose only one from each section (dyn, eq, converter etc). what do you think?

i've also thought about the c2 and the api 2500. perhaps i can save enough money with used gear that i'll be able to get a second compressor.

First of all why are you tracking acoustic instruments with compression?

If you want to kill the dimension and fidelity of an acoustic instrument pretty quick, start tracking it with compression.

You want a signature and glue, but you want to master with it.

Again a tricky proposition.

If you want punch with agressiveness by an SSL console.

The mixbuss comp is only part of the sound.

Its how the all the different gainstages interact with each other.

Maybe look at a pair of Distressors for a starting point.

They definitely work on drums.

They can work effectively on vocals and bass.

Can be used on acoustic guitars.

A pair can be used on the drumbuss.

Has never been my favorite on the mixbuss, but i use mine mostly on drums anyway.

[deft_bonz]

i've meant tracking with a limiter as a security before conversion.



oh yes, i haven't thought a pair of distressors

i'll check out if i can afford both, an es-8 and a pair of distressors.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
i've meant tracking with a limiter as a security before conversion.



oh yes, i haven't thought a pair of distressors

i'll check out if i can afford both, an es-8 and a pair of distressors.

Yeah you don't need a limiter before conversion.

Heck i've said a million times here how i track vocals all the time without comp/limiting and they sound both dynamic and full(as long as you leave yourself enough headroom and ride the send with a fader you are fine).

ES-8 with a pair of Distressors sounds killer to me.

[deft_bonz]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor


ES-8 with a pair of Distressors sounds killer to me.

to me too

until now i haven't used lim/comp during tracking too, but as soon as i have high end compressor i'll try it and check out how good it sounds, how it influences my work and my mixdown. probably i'm going to leave enough headroom and use the comp/lim during mixdown, as i did until now. i just like to open up my mind.

i thank you thrill

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
.

i thank you thrill

thumbsup

[chrisso]

I think you need colour, even aggression for electronic music, if only to pump some life into the overused samples or to give a different flavour to drum loops and 909 sounds.
I wouldn't choose any of the three you've mentioned.
I think the Smart is a good option, or a couple of Distressors, perhaps the API (although I haven't used it).
Or, as you say, buy a few smaller, quirky comps used.
I have a Helios F760 which kicks butt (you can also find it in the A,D&R F760 comp).
There are also some nice Q8 and Electrodyne comps that pop up occassionally.

[deft_bonz]

yes that's it, but i don't want to loose the option to get mixdown orders from acoustical groups...

yeah yeah i know with only 2 compressors it's (almost) impossible to cover all that

i think if i can i'll take a pendulum and 2 distressors. i'm not sure about the c2 and it's very hard to get one here to test it. pendulum i had once for one day and i loved it right from the beginning. don't tell that to my girlfriend

with the distressors it can not be a wrong decision.

deft:::

[duende]

For electronic music....

I'd say go with the STC-8.

[deft_bonz]

it depends on how cheap i can get thet pendulum 6386. otherwise i'll think about it. this unit seems to be the most versatile from these 3, but it's also the most expensive one.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by chrisso
I think you need colour, even aggression for electronic music, if only to pump some life into the overused samples or to give a different flavour to drum loops and 909 sounds.
I.

I think this can be a mistake if not applied properly.

Nothing will make overused/compressed drum sounds suck more than using more compression on top.

The technique to breathe dynamics into overly done drum sounds is micro dynamic expansion.

It takes alot of practice but when its done right it can make the drum sounds full of life again.

This goes the same for bass sounds as well.

I think its one of the things the makes electronica so small&boxy sounding at times. Guys just over EQ'ing an compressing everything to make the sounds pop.

[Vari-Mu]

Just curious. What do you mean by "micro dynamic expansion"?

I agree with you about overcompression being a problem in a lot of the electronic music I hear.
I think some of it is due to the way much of it is made...i.e. bedroom guys looking for a "silver bullet" especially as regards drum sounds.

A lot of these producers are very creative but I feel that their lack of training/ apprenticeship/ technical background often results in problems arising from overprocessing of one sort or another. The result is thin, tired sounding audio IMO.

I also think the proliferation of plug-ins are responsible for this . When hardware was the only thing available, most people had to reserve their processing firepower to fix problems. Now you can have a zillion instances of everything going at once and a lot of people can't resist the temptation.

Cheers,


Vari-Mu

[sixtoo]

my .02

I love the API2500. Feedback and Feedforward types with filters to control the amount of LR linking... (great for stereo stuff where bass is panned... or drums). Nice color, but can be used sparingly as well... Awesome on drums/ great for glue.

I have used it on a lot of electronic/instrumental hiphop stuff and would like another...

[deft_bonz]

missed the 6386, felt asleep

new day new luck, maybe this was a sign NOT to buy it

let's wait few weeks and then i'll decide with a calm mind

it seems to me that i can test every gear over some months (it's almost impossible to have them here at the same time) or i begin just with two of them, like a pair of distressors and a api 2500 e.g. or a stc-8 or ...

i hate gear decisions

[deft_bonz]

Originally posted by Vari-Mu
...
I also think the proliferation of plug-ins are responsible for this . When hardware was the only thing available, most people had to reserve their processing firepower to fix problems. Now you can have a zillion instances of everything going at once and a lot of people can't resist the temptation.

Cheers,


Vari-Mu

i made this mistake too, but it took just one or two sessions to recognize that everything sounds very boring and just too loud. i think if you do club dance music it doesn't matter.

when i began to mix analog with less possibilities the sound went better.

[chrisso]

I agree with you about the technical failings and over use of FX etc....
I'm not talking about American mainstream electronic music here though (like RnB and Hip Hop), I'm talking about low budget, low shelf-life dance music.
There is not the time or budget to hire musicians...or track/mix in proper studios, so samples, plug-ins, synths and processing become the main component parts.
I'm not advocating wholesale compression either.
But take a basic drum loop, eq the kick drum, reverse a couple of hi-hats, heavily compress one snare beat. Now add your own kick drum sample etc....
People like The Chemical Brothers may be breaking all the technical rules, but it sounds exciting to me.

[matucha]

now maybe transient designer or plugins like TransX or whatever similar can be "the bullet" for overused samples.

I just used this trasient thing on kick that some very lame guys brought me here. It was like "uuuuuh" "uuuuuh" type of kick, that has less energy at the attack then in the tail. Tried multing with instance enveloped with compressor/expander, but it wasn't right. The transX did de job greatly. Better than EQ it (only).

[deft_bonz]

you got it.

yes i want to take my electronic music into a new sound level. this should be also very interesting for aquiring clients. there are a lot of people in zurich doing electronic music, but still in a poor level. for mixing i don' t need big recording rooms and facilities, and a lot of investements i've already done in the past, therefore there is only a little loan open. thus i can keep rental costs very deep.

cross your fingers for me.

this next investement is going (is supposed) to upgrade my attractivity for clients. without increasing the costs into unpayable and unreasonalbe regions.

i already have a nice collection of synths and efx, but i still need compressors and eqs. and i promised to never buy again midrange stuff, because they loose their worth and quality too fast. all the (few) high end gear i own never let me down unitl now, working with them was always creative working, never annoying because of technical inadequateness' (as it is for instance with behringer).

[matucha]

...I looked at your website and ;-) there is transient designer.... so my suggestion was a bit off...

however I listened to the examples of the music, and since deft bonz was missing, I tried others. And it sounded flat to me, like too much energy was put to lower bas and 300-500 range was scooped somehow. The instruments and drums were too apart, no glue. However I doubt this could be done with a hiend compressor, I feel it is in tweaking the mix.

I don't know how recent are these examples (for ex on my site there are pretty outdated - when considering sound).

[brownmouse]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
btw i could get a the 6386 version from the ES-8 for a good deal.
:::

if you can get the es-8 for a good price, i'd jump on it.... i seriously doubt you'll regret that purchase. it's currently my favorite compressor on the 2 buss and vocals. i prefer the distressor on the drums usually but i guess i need a phillips AND a flat head screwdriver
good luck,
joshua

[matucha]

...sorry... this is strange... I played it via quicktime and it sounded strange... so now I tried winamp and it is ok. My comments above are no more valid. ;-) And I can see it is big mp3 compression and 32khz sampling rate... can't judge this.

my appologies

[deft_bonz]

Originally posted by matucha
...I looked at your website and ;-) there is transient designer.... so my suggestion was a bit off...

however I listened to the examples of the music, and since deft bonz was missing, I tried others. And it sounded flat to me, like too much energy was put to lower bas and 300-500 range was scooped somehow. The instruments and drums were too apart, no glue. However I doubt this could be done with a hiend compressor, I feel it is in tweaking the mix.

I don't know how recent are these examples (for ex on my site there are pretty outdated - when considering sound).

they're over 2 years old and probably only demos. the album is made 2001-2002 released 2003. but it's a poor mp3 conversion too.

i know that the first thing are great ideas and great instruments with great players.

[deft_bonz]

Originally posted by brownmouse
if you can get the es-8 for a good price, i'd jump on it.... i seriously doubt you'll regret that purchase. it's currently my favorite compressor on the 2 buss and vocals. i prefer the distressor on the drums usually but i guess i need a phillips AND a flat head screwdriver
good luck,
joshua

missed it, fall asleep



i dont mind, i'll get another chance or i'll buy it new

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
it depends on how cheap i can get thet pendulum 6386.

I've never used their 6386 but I have heard the ES8 version... I thought it was great. IMHO, I would be looking at THAT version.

IE the 6386: I don't know how wise it would be to buy a unit based on tubes that are in such short supply...

What happens when the tube finally goes and the manufacturer has no more stock?

[deft_bonz]

Originally posted by blackcatdigi
I've never used their 6386 but I have heard the ES8 version... I thought it was great. IMHO, I would be looking at THAT version.

IE the 6386: I don't know how wise it would be to buy a unit based on tubes that are in such short supply...

What happens when the tube finally goes and the manufacturer has no more stock?

yes that's indeed a good question i've already asked myself. i'm not sure but it may be possible to switch them for the other tubes that are in the es-8.

[blackcatdigi]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
yes that's indeed a good question i've already asked myself. i'm not sure but it may be possible to switch them for the other tubes that are in the es-8.

Maybe.
But then again, if it is that simple, why are there two different units and model numbers?

Fletcher...?

[Brad Blackwood]

Originally posted by deft_bonz
yes that's indeed a good question i've already asked myself. i'm not sure but it may be possible to switch them for the other tubes that are in the es-8.

Greg only has the tube supply to build a couple more 6386 Vari-Mus but apparantly has some stock of tubes for 6386 owners.

The ES8 and 6386 are the same box save a different socket for the different tube. The tubes are not 'pin compatible'.

All this is iirc, of course - Greg and I talked about it a few years ago...