Neumann U47 or Telefunken U47m

[Fortral]

I want to buy U47 soon but I don’t know if I should go for an old Neumann or new Telefunken. I can buy Telefunken U47m new with out tube for 4990$. I can easily get VF14 tube through my contacts cheap so that’s no issue.
But have any of you gearslutz maniacs had change to A/B these two mics. I mean is this new Telefunken the same mic as it was for 40 years ago same components and everything. And if you buy an old Neumann you never relay know in which shape they are.
Is there a big sonic character difference between these two microphones or is it more like difference between old bottles of wine. Some will do something magical and others are just a big blaaaaa.

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

When spending this much money on a microphone I suggest taking one of each home for a day and trying it in your setup. I ALWAYS do that before purchasing. If the people won't trust you then tell them to bring it over and let you try it with them there. This is the only way to know which one to use. Never buy a mic without hearing it first.

[faeflora]

Are you sure that your VF14's are 1. audio quality, 2. good?

[Fortral]

Well I live in Iceland so when it comes to vintage equipment I live in the middle of no wear. So I really don’t have any change to check them out. There have been a lot of threats and discussion here at gearslutz about how good the reissue of Tele 251 is. Is it just another bad reissue or did they really capture the magic of the old one. Me among others seams to be pretty convinced that the Telefunken did really good job there. I was kind of hoping that the new U47m would be the same case. So I don’t have to cross my finger and hope I get a good one at ebay or vintageking. If any of you gearslutz has some experience working with the new Telefunken U47m I would me glad to know?

I don’t know witch brand this tube are but what I do know is that lot of studios in Holland and Belgium buy this tube for there Neumann’s and they come shielded in original package and haven’t been touch or used sense they were made for 40 years ago
If you know witch brand are better then another I would be glad to know

[Kestral]

Originally posted by Fortral
Well I live in Iceland so when it comes to vintage equipment I live in the middle of no wear. So I really don’t have any change to check them out. There have been a lot of threats and discussion here at gearslutz about how good the reissue of Tele 251 is. Is it just another bad reissue or did they really capture the magic of the old one. Me among others seams to be pretty convinced that the Telefunken did really good job there. I was kind of hoping that the new U47m would be the same case. So I don’t have to cross my finger and hope I get a good one at ebay or vintageking. If any of you gearslutz has some experience working with the new Telefunken U47m I would me glad to know?

I don’t know witch brand this tube are but what I do know is that lot of studios in Holland and Belgium buy this tube for there Neumann’s and they come shielded in original package and haven’t been touch or used sense they were made for 40 years ago
If you know witch brand are better then another I would be glad to know

Just to let you know, my studio partner got his U47 from Vintage King and so far it's turned out great. As mentioned in another thread, we shot out his U47 with a friend who owns two U47's and the "Vintage King" U47 was heads and shoulders above the other two. From what I understand, Tracy Korby goes services the U47's before Vintage King sells them.

In any case, just wanted to pass the word - I'm not affiliated with Vintage King in any way, just a satisfied customer (studio partner bought the U47, I bought a Neve 1073 from them)

[Jack Pettit]

Make that a VF14M the M stands for Microphone.
Telefunken (the real one) graded them that way.
One problem with vintage tubes is that people tend
to keep the best ones and put the rest back into
the market.

Good luck

[Klaus]

I really have no interest in praising or slamming clones of famous microphones. I have an interest though, to keep the conversation about comparing clones to originals honest.

As part of that conversation should be my insistence that a copy-mic should ever be advertised as identical sounding to the original, unless it has at least the vital, sound-shaping, components of the original installed in it.

In the case of the Neumann U47 that means:

The capsule, tube, and transformer should be stock/original, otherwise no one should claim U47 sound.

The reason: no one has yet successfully recreated the intricacies of VF14 (tube) M7/K47 (capsule) and BV8 (transformer) materials and construction, and no one probably ever will.

That, by the way, does not take away from the possibility that any of the clones may sound fantastic in their own right, or that some will at least sound "somewhat similar" to a U47.

But anyone who claims identical performance of a well-working, all original vintage U47 and a clone that does not contain these sound shaping components of the original is not telling the truth.

Kind regards, Klaus Heyne


P.S.: 'Telefunken', as it appears on the Neumann U47's badge, was the export company, separate from the tube manufacturing unit; Telefunken never made microphones or parts for any of the mics carrying its badge, and did not select the VF14 for U47 use. That was done in the Neumann factory in Berlin.

P.P.S.: Telefunken EF and UF 14 tubes are not identical with the VF14. Neither in cathode construction nor supply voltage nor performance. While they may come close in sound to the untrained ear, anybody who can test VF and E/UF side by side in the same mic can readily discern the audible difference. Maybe that is the reason why the VF14 is traded at a multiple of its siblings' price.

[Meriphew]

Klaus - Have you had an opportunity yet to test out any of the new Telefunken USA mics? I'd be very interested in your evaluation(s) if you have. Thx.

[Klaus]

Originally posted by Meriphew
Klaus - Have you had an opportunity yet to test out any of the new Telefunken USA mics? I'd be very interested in your evaluation(s) if you have. Thx.

Still waiting for samples from Toni.
To his defense: I'd too sell to the general public first, rather than tying them up to be critically illuminated with an uncertain outcome and no sale.

Kind regards,
Klaus Heyne

[enharmonic]

Klaus, a question for you...though I will certainly understand if you do not care to reply.

Based on your experience and dare I say...expertise...if you had $15,000 to build a mic locker selecting only from new mics available today, what mics would have your attention? Would $15,000 even be enough to get you into a happy place with your mic collection?

Again, recognizing that you're in the mic business...if you'd rather not answer the question, I understand completely.

[Klaus]

Without wanting to appear to be evasive, let me answer truthfully that I don't know enough about some of the emerging companies and their current crop of mics to make credible statements on specific brands and models.

(Although a clone discussion was the topic starter, I am excluding clones from this post altogether. I feel that the clone market is too new, untested and unpredictable, regarding the staying power of the emerging companies and resale values of their products, mid or long term, to venture any guesses)

Maybe I can still offer some kind of useful information:

I would fill my $15,000.- mic closet with purchases that fulfill two criteria which I have known to be true, as long as I have been involved in the field of microphones:

1. I would try to purchase mics that are known not to lose value over time, unless I have fallen in love. Then I don't care what the financial fate of my love interest may be some time in the distant future.

Predicting the future value of mics obviously takes much more work with currently produced models than with already proven vintage ones, but can be done (f.ex. broker and e-bay prices of a given model as used, vs. current street price of same model as new.)

What's also telling sometimes is how much does a new mic really changing hands for, compared with its theoretical target (list) price? Is there a large spread or is it narrow? Does Guitar Center "blow'em out" at half price? And: is there a trend? Does a mic's price ex factory suddenly drop, for no apparent reason other than that it does not seem to be selling well at the previous price?

2. I would try to cover as much sonic and timbral territory as my budget allows. It helps to know that almost all large diaphragm condensers fall into three capsule-type categories.

As the capsule, more than any other part in a condenser mic, determines timbre and character, I would make sure to cover all bases: I'd try to buy one mic each whose capsule is based on the CK12, K47/49 and K67/87 design (though you may be unfamiliar with the construction similarities of mics, check with your manufacturer. He/she should tell you straight out what capsule type is used.)

Together these three types cover most of the timbral shadings found in LD mics. That’s why I would avoid buying, let’s say, a U87 and an SM69 and a TLM 103. They all use a similar capsule construction, and timbral characteristics are not distinguished enough from mic to mic to justify depleting the budget by buying all three.

I would complement the collection with at least two (dissimilar sounding) pairs of 21mm ø small condemner mics- most useful here would be cardioids.

I would then round off the collection with cheaper, but essential, specialty mics- those used for miking high SPL guitar amps, kick drums, toms, high hats, etc. Some of them would be dynamics, and some ribbons which are still unsurpassed for certain brass and reed applications.

All the above can be done within $15K, without sacrificing excellence.

A final note: I would not limit myself to brand new mics. There is no compelling reason to stay away from well-maintained used or vintage mics to complete the collection.

Kind regards,

Klaus Heyne

[enharmonic]

Thank you for this excellent and thoughtful reply, Klaus!

[Fortral]

Thank you all a lot. It have been plain pleasent to be able to get and share all this information about the U47

[84K]

If you can get a VF14 I am sure Telefunken NA would build a dead on U47. I agree that you can only get so close without that tube. Good Luck, Kris

P.S. Very Cool Of Mr. Heyne To Share His Vast Knowledge. Thanks!!

[jimmyz]

... and does it seem likely that knowone who was there at the origonal building of these tubes in the 50's/60 may be able to help some team somewhere build another VF14? Just trying to understand (like many before me) how soething that is so in demand, with the origional makers still alive and surely the materials still insisnting on earth, why wouldn't this valve be built again?

Maybe im naive, but can it not be done? And i dont mean a replica. I mean production of the same valve. It, to me is like the secret recipe doesn't exist anymore and everyones trying to taste the food to see what as in it, then making their own.

Maybe i'm miles off!

j

[zoink]

Originally Posted by jimmyz

... and does it seem likely that knowone who was there at the origonal building of these tubes in the 50's/60 may be able to help some team somewhere build another VF14?

j

there was a very interesting thread over at rep forum a while back with oli archut about current manufacturing of tubes versus how it was back when.

PSW Recording Forums: Oliver Archut => Oliver, How much would it cost to make a tube factory that you like?

i think even klaus might have chimed in. actually, the whole archut's threads are archived and should be dug in by anyone with interest in tubes. its now close, but mr. Klaus Heynes got an open one (about microphones) that he moderates. it's an absolute pleasure. and i often read it and catch up. highly recommended.