Re: fairchild 660/670 vs manley vari-MU

[tonymite]

the old timer vs manley ??? both tracking 2 buss and mastering scenario's ??? maybe fairchild vs ADL (i question the price-tag) re-creation ??? or AWA ??? or EAR etc ... i know there are others too...

at what point am i paying for the screw that once belonged to the scratchplate of one of hendrix' guitars ???

[Dave Martin]

Assuming that you want the sound of a tube based compressor (as opposed to one using another type of gain reduction element like an optical or FET based circuit) there are lots of interesting alternatives to the original 660/670. Among the options (This is off the top of my head, so I'm probably leaving a number of things out.)
Mercury 660, Penulum ES8 (and their 6386), Manley Vari-Mu, Thermionic Culture's The Phoenix and a couple of others are available new, and there are a number of older units built by Gates, Federal, RCA, Altec and even General Electric.

Just because the Fairchild is the most famous version, it doesn't necessarily mean that you NEED to pay $30K for one...

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
Assuming that you want the sound of a tube based compressor (as opposed to one using another type of gain reduction element like an optical or FET based circuit) there are lots of interesting alternatives to the original 660/670. Among the options (This is off the top of my head, so I'm probably leaving a number of things out.)
Mercury 660, Penulum ES8 (and their 6386), Manley Vari-Mu, Thermionic Culture's The Phoenix and a couple of others are available new, and there are a number of older units built by Gates, Federal, RCA, Altec and even General Electric.

Just because the Fairchild is the most famous version, it doesn't necessarily mean that you NEED to pay $30K for one...

Dave you forgot EAR and to Tonymite there are no vs. posts on the High End forumn.

Its"which gets me there faster" or "which should i get first".

If its a price issue than rent it from your local rental shop.

[jazzius II]

If you're interested in the Manley, make sure you also check out the Phoenix. It's wicked.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Dave you forgot EAR

Yeah - I forgot a few, didn't I? Oh, well - blame it on still being half asleep...

[tonymite]

let me re-phrase :

if fairchild weren't such a collectors item, and u could buy either a 670 or manley vari-MU for the same $$$ ... which would u buy ( soley based on sonics) - which sounds better in the above applications

I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN VARI MU so dont mention vca, fet, optical, vactoral RNC's, waves C1 or fruitty loops. tutt

shtanx

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by tonymite
let me re-phrase :

if fairchild weren't such a collectors item, and u could buy either a 670 or manley vari-MU for the same $$$ ... which would u buy ( soley based on sonics) - which sounds better in the above applications

I AM ONLY INTERESTED IN VARI MU so dont mention vca, fet, optical, vactoral RNC's, waves C1 or fruitty loops. tutt

shtanx

I think basically what everyone is trying to say is its not that cut and dry.

If it were up to me i would have both in the true Gearslut style.

There are certain things that only the Fairchild does.

Same goes for the Vari-Mu.

The Vari-Mu is more versatile in my opinion, but it doesn't necessarily make it better.

Also you get 2 channels instead of one, even though there is one input control for both sides(which has never stopped me before).

[isa215]

the Manley Vari-Mu and Fairchild compressors are different compressors in many respects.

Fairchild 670 uses ?3?x 6386 tubes per channel for gain control whereas I believe the Manley *used* to use just the one (and now has subsituted with a more readily available tube?) Amongst other things - the advantage of the 'fairchild approach' is to average out any differences between the 3 x tubes allowing for closer stereo matching of the two channels. A neat (but expensive!) approach.

There are so many other differences - but I'm not sure why it's so important to compare these two compressor/limiters - they each do what they do and sound how they sound...does it really matter which one I prefer to use or find more useful... Surely if you're going to be spending money on either one you would listen to it extensively in person and try it out for yourself first?

[84K]

I own the Fairchild 670... I own a Manley Vari-Mu with 6386 tubes (same as Fairchild). I can tell you that they are pretty different. The Manley is very good, but no Fairchild. The Pendulum Compressor is closer to the Fairchild.

[Gie-Sound]

Originally posted by 84K
The Pendulum Compressor is closer to the Fairchild.

wich one? The ES8 or the compressor in the Quartet2?

[84K]

Originally posted by Gie-Sound
wich one? The ES8 or the compressor in the Quartet2?

The Quartet 2 has the ES-8 in it.

[Poutine]

Don't forget the ITA Atomic Squeeze Box - the stereo version can do some amazing things for individual tracks, subs, or an entire mix.
And for the price of a single Fairchild (not counting maintenance) you could have a whole rackfull of cool tonetoys.

[Tetness]

Looking for a good mastering compressor. I already own a Mercury 66. Do you think it's a good idea to get another and use that. Or perhaps a differend mastering compressor alltogether.

[84K]

Originally Posted by Gie-Sound

wich one? The ES8 or the compressor in the Quartet2?

6386 is closests... then ES-8.... the OPto is amazing, but a totally different animal.

[Revelation]

Originally Posted by 84K

I own the Fairchild 670... I own a Manley Vari-Mu with 6386 tubes (same as Fairchild). I can tell you that they are pretty different. The Manley is very good, but no Fairchild. The Pendulum Compressor is closer to the Fairchild.

What tone character would you give the Manley Mu and the Pendulum ES8? One is creamy, or a smoother?

[GearHunter]

Like a couple people have already said, absolutely positively try the Thermionic Phoenix before you make your final decision. The thing has a lot of high-fidelity detail at the same time as being "euphonic" "puffy" "warm" "musical", etc. To my ears, it's mastering quality and a real beauty.

They are not cheap, but they are worth every penny and far less expensive than a 670.

Check out the Thermionic Culture stuff here: here

There may be a demo unit available.

And by the way, I'm not a tube expert, but I've heard that the 660 and 670 are very different circuits. In other words, the 670 is not simply a 2-channel 660, and if you want the 670 sound you can't get it from a 660. Is this true, or just a bunch of valve-voodoo?

[84K]

Originally Posted by Revelation

What tone character would you give the Manley Mu and the Pendulum ES8? One is creamy, or a smoother?

The Manley Vari-mu I have has all 6386s in it (like a fairchild) and it was somewhat custom when I bought it. Some of the controls (like threshold) are reversed (max is min). I like that compressor for limiting type functions. The ES-8 is a little more ballsy(punchy), and you have more control with the attack-release, so you can make it pretty damn smooth if you like. If smooth is what you are looking for, I would get the Pendulum Opto.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by GearHunter

Like a couple people have already said, absolutely positively try the Thermionic Phoenix before you make your final decision. The thing has a lot of high-fidelity detail at the same time as being "euphonic" "puffy" "warm" "musical", etc. To my ears, it's mastering quality and a real beauty.

They are not cheap, but they are worth every penny and far less expensive than a 670.

Check out the Thermionic Culture stuff here: here

There may be a demo unit available.

Drew, Drew, Drew, Drew, Drew... we're not supposed to pimp on this site... if pimping were allowed I would have to say check it out here

And by the way, I'm not a tube expert, but I've heard that the 660 and 670 are very different circuits. In other words, the 670 is not simply a 2-channel 660, and if you want the 670 sound you can't get it from a 660. Is this true, or just a bunch of valve-voodoo?

For all intents and purposes the 660 is indeed 1/2 a 670... minus things like the M/S [lateral/vertical] matrix.

BTW... see ya Friday...

[84K]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Drew, Drew, Drew, Drew, Drew... we're not supposed to pimp on this site... if pimping were allowed I would have to say check it out here



For all intents and purposes the 660 is indeed 1/2 a 670... minus things like the M/S [lateral/vertical] matrix..

That is incorrect... the Fairchild 660 and the 670 are different in many ways... come on Fletcher!!!! I would expect you to know better!

[BB Bill]

I don't have enough experience with the Fairchild 670 to compare it to the Manley, but I can tell you that IMO a pair of EAR 660's sound better than the Manley Vari-Mu across the 2-bus. The EAR's just glue the bottom end together in a way that the Manley can't touch. Never tried the Pendulums.

Somebody mentioned the stereo Atomic Squeezebox earlier in the thread, I own the mono version and I can only dream about what the stereo version might do to the 2-bus... a fantastic compressor IMO. I urge everyone to check it out if you ever come across one.

BBB

[84K]

Originally Posted by Big Bad Bill

I don't have enough experience with the Fairchild 670 to compare it to the Manley, but I can tell you that IMO a pair of EAR 660's sound better than the Manley Vari-Mu across the 2-bus. The EAR's just glue the bottom end together in a way that the Manley can't touch. Never tried the Pendulums.

Somebody mentioned the stereo Atomic Squeezebox earlier in the thread, I own the mono version and I can only dream about what the stereo version might do to the 2-bus... a fantastic compressor IMO. I urge everyone to check it out if you ever come across one.

BBB

Hi,

The Atomic Squeeze Box is one of the next purchases on my list... I am looking forward to hearing an EAR 660.

[Revelation]

Originally Posted by Big Bad Bill

I don't have enough experience with the Fairchild 670 to compare it to the Manley, but I can tell you that IMO a pair of EAR 660's sound better than the Manley Vari-Mu across the 2-bus. The EAR's just glue the bottom end together in a way that the Manley can't touch. Never tried the Pendulums.

Somebody mentioned the stereo Atomic Squeezebox earlier in the thread, I own the mono version and I can only dream about what the stereo version might do to the 2-bus... a fantastic compressor IMO. I urge everyone to check it out if you ever come across one.

BBB

Ok so you like the Fairchild better than the MU which of course is a subjective thing. Question is, is it worth $15,000 more for the sound it gives you? Though die hard fans hate to admit it, the UAD Fairchild is pretty close to the real thing. Bear in mind that every Fairchild sounds a little different due to the tube age, and care it has received over the years. So maybe a UAD Fairchild only sounds 85% as close as the one you have used, it may be 90-95% as close as another Fairchild in another studio.

That is why I question how important is it to have a Manley MU or UAD Fairchild. some love one over the other and it goes both ways. Massive Mastering who has both the MU and UAD Fairchild told me the Manley MU sounds better than the Fairchild across a bus, but has said the UAD Fairchild though has a great sound that has been very useful on other things. He mentioned that the Fairchild is not intended to go across the bus because it takes away from the low end. Not sure how true this is, but he seemed to give some credible info on his thread.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by 84K

That is incorrect... the Fairchild 660 and the 670 are different in many ways... come on Fletcher!!!! I would expect you to know better!

Oh do tell!!

Let's see... they both use the same input and output transformers, they both use the same interstage transformer... they both use the same tube compliment [4x 6386's per channel] as a gain reduction cell... they are both aligned the same way, and both use the same power supply design... so please, eduacte me... what are these "different in many ways" things?

I'm always up for learning new stuff!!!!

[GearHunter]

Drew, Drew, Drew, Drew, Drew... we're not supposed to pimp on this site... if pimping were allowed I would have to say check it out here

Fletcher, when I get excited about gear, I get excited about gear. From an engineer standpoint or a Gearslut standpoint. I can separate myself from my dayjob. I would never recommend something I don't believe in. And I've been in recording for far far longer than I've been selling pro audio, as you well know.

But I guess I shouldn't imbed links to web-sites that are related to the company I sell for (but I didn't put a PAD link in, did I?), and I also forgot you were a dealer for Thermionic Culture.

So, I apologise if it seems like I was blatantly pimping.

But truth is, I believe in the Phoenix, and I say, buy it from me, buy it from Fletcher, I don't care who you buy it from, just buy the bleeding thing because it will freaking rock your world!

See you tomorrow and Erin Go Braugh!

[BB Bill]

Originally Posted by Revelation

Ok so you like the Fairchild better than the MU which of course is a subjective thing. Question is, is it worth $15,000 more for the sound it gives you? Though die hard fans hate to admit it, the UAD Fairchild is pretty close to the real thing. Bear in mind that every Fairchild sounds a little different due to the tube age, and care it has received over the years. So maybe a UAD Fairchild only sounds 85% as close as the one you have used, it may be 90-95% as close as another Fairchild in another studio.

That is why I question how important is it to have a Manley MU or UAD Fairchild. some love one over the other and it goes both ways. Massive Mastering who has both the MU and UAD Fairchild told me the Manley MU sounds better than the Fairchild across a bus, but has said the UAD Fairchild though has a great sound that has been very useful on other things. He mentioned that the Fairchild is not intended to go across the bus because it takes away from the low end. Not sure how true this is, but he seemed to give some credible info on his thread.

I didn't say I liked the Fairchild better. I said I don't have enough hands on experience with the Fairchild to make a comparison between it and the Manley. What I did say was that I much prefer a pair of EAR 660's to a Manley Vari-Mu. They are based on the Fairchild 660, built by Tim deParavicini in the UK, and I paid $3k or so a piece for my pair 7-8 years ago.

I love them, and I would prefer not to record or mix without them.

YMMV.


BBB

[84K]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Oh do tell!!

Let's see... they both use the same input and output transformers, they both use the same interstage transformer... they both use the same tube compliment [4x 6386's per channel] as a gain reduction cell... they are both aligned the same way, and both use the same power supply design... so please, eduacte me... what are these "different in many ways" things?

I'm always up for learning new stuff!!!!

Well....

The Circuit around the tubes are different in the Fairchild 660 and 670.... to be specific, the resistors around the operating points of the 6386s... There is 8db more gain in a 670 than a 660. I am not saying that more gain and the different resistors make it sound "better" than a 660, but that is enough to make them very different in many ways... Especially when the gain structure of a Vari-mu effects the threshold, output, noise floor, headroom, etc.

[Fletcher]

Isn't it that the 6386 are driven idnetically in both and the output is driven a hair differently in the 670?... I'm not being facetious, I'm unclear... this is the way I understood it to work... the reason I bring this up is because it doesn't really have anything to do with the "sound" of the unit per se.

Oh... and Drew, around our joint we prefer the expression "Erin Go Braughless"

[84K]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Isn't it that the 6386 are driven idnetically in both and the output is driven a hair differently in the 670?... I'm not being facetious, I'm unclear... this is the way I understood it to work... the reason I bring this up is because it doesn't really have anything to do with the "sound" of the unit per se.

Oh... and Drew, around our joint we prefer the expression "Erin Go Braughless"

The output transformer is a large part of the sound in a Fairchild... the transformers are the part no one has come close to other than Pendulum (and maybe Mercury, I have not tried that one). The drive in any stage within the box has an effect on the characteristics... Beyond that, I am sure you've had them next to each other and heard the differences yourself. Also, do not discount the different resistors in the operating section of the power tubes. They effect the sound as well.

[JTR]

So would one of you gentlemen care to explain exactly why it is that the Manley has been described as not technically a Vari-mu design?
I have come across this point mentioned a number of times, but never with any specifics.
No rush, anytime after you've recovered from the green beer.

cheers

[Fletcher]

If Manley's unit actually worked on the variable-MU principle then it would not have been granted 'trademark protection' for the words "variable-MU"... a trademark can't be a description of the process... like GM can't trademark "internal combustion" as the name of one of their motors... but you can be sure that things like "327" and "Hemi" are heavily trademarked.