Taking my tiny studio to the next level.

[John_McEnroe]

Hey guys. I've been a lurker here for a long time and you guys always seem to have level headed advice so I thought I would ask your opinion on some studio upgrades im planning.

I am currently using nothing more than a G4 powerbook/MOTU828MK2/Focusrite Voicemaster Pro/and a Studio Projects C1 Microphone.

The rest of my equipment is two hardware synths and the rest software.

With this gear I managed to get signed to a small label and put out a record which I am very happy with, the only thing I recorded with the mic being my vocals. For my next project I want to do more recording of real instruments but I dont know if I will be able to get satisfactory results without spending a ton of cash. I basically want to know if it would be worth getting a high end preamp and microphone seeing as I have a fairly limited amount of gear to begin with. I dont want to go spending thousands of dollars on a mic and pre only to be let down because im mixing with all software EQ and compressors.

For the next project I would like to record my upright piano and some real drums and strings.

It basically boils down to this: I have about $6000 USD to spend (though obviously spending less is better) Am I better off buying a G5 and a UAD-1 card to improve my mixes and getting a high quality piano sample library and forgetting about recording real instruments (seeing as my room is not a treated studio by any means) or would I be able to get good results by spending the money on a nice preamp and microphone and recording my piano and real drums and continuing to use my powerbook as my main computer?

I make electronic music so absolutely pristine quality is not required as I will be heavily effecting most things (except piano). I dont really know how to begin since I have never purchased a preamp other than the voicemaster pro (which I like but see room for improvement) so I have no idea what results are possible on such a small budget.

Forgive me for the rambling nature of this thread, im just hoping you might be able to shed some light on this for me so I dont make a horribly unwise decision.

If there is anything I could add to clarify my situation any further just let me know!

[chadly]

You might not dig this, but sleep on it and it might feel better:

For you to amass the mics and get your room together to do drum tracking and sort of thing (I'm assuming some things here that I see in a lot of other home studios) will take more then 6k to do it well. Devide and conquer.

Track your drums at a studio with a decent room, maybe do the strings there if you really need 'em live. This isn't the 70's. Big studios and home studios can play in the production sandbox together.

The money spent on tracking will HUGELY raise the quality of the project, and you'll still have a decent sum to spend on gear. Score a used pre, maybe a new mic (or pair)

Pick up a pair of KM 184's if you're planning on doing a lot of instruments (or other pair of decent SDC's in the $1k to $1.4k range) or a better LDC and a decent pre to match, say in the range of $1.6k. (About a dozen stereo and a few 4 channel ones come to mind)

I prefer to buy decent gear that will retain it's value and usefulness, and THEN focus on the plugs. You'll still want the gear for your other albums, right?

Summary:

$1400 on Mics
$1600 on Pres
$399-799 UAD

Rest on tracking at decent studio, mastering, etc.

6k for killer drum sound, toys for your own home studio, and some UAD power to boot. If your G4 isn't dying, I probably wouldn't replace it. That thing should still have HUGE track count/plugin power.

[Jules]

Perhaps hire a specialist engineer with remote equipment to record the Strings, Piano & Drums.

Or simply hire in or borrow pre-amps & converters just for the days you record those signals..

Investing in your home mixing situation sounds like a good idea.

[Kestral]

If I had that setup, I'd spend the $6K on a Neve 1073, a Urei 1176 and an Apogee converter (ie. Rosetta 200).

Even with dance music, I find that routing the softsynth/sample sounds out of the unit into a great preamp/compressor can make all the difference.

[Darth Fader]

Originally posted by Kestral
Even with dance music, I find that routing the softsynth/sample sounds out of the unit into a great preamp/compressor can make all the difference.

I second that, it does make all the difference.

I find myself re-tracking my softsynths through my Voxboxes via Rosetta 200 and the DTC all the time...

I even find myself tracking my analog Rolands D.I.-d with the Manleys.

Wish I had the ca$h to add a pair of 1073s and a Massivo, though.

John, spending money on the right high end outboard always makes sense - go for keepers. You'd only have to find out what "right" means for you.

[Darth Fader]

Originally posted by djui5
This still dosen't solve the drum/piano problem....thought it's a great idea.

Yeah, that didn't solve the drum/piano problem - I'd also go to a good studio with a great, tuned grand piano, a great room and all the outboard, microphones and skills needed - if my goal was a jazz, classic or commercial pop record. It'd get you a lot of spare time to focus on the music

But the approach really depends on your production and taste - if you don't need that GRAND grand piano sound from the highest end studio in the next big city (John mentioned electronic music), you could just experiment with different techniques and have fun during the sessions until you get your own, "unique" sound.

But I believe it makes sense to retrack ITB stuff through high quality outboard. It's not about turd polishing!

[Darth Fader]

Originally posted by djui5
Yeah...or you could send the tracks to someone like me and I could track some drums and piano for you...then send it back..........

Now that's a brilliant idea.

[John_McEnroe]

Wow guys thank you so much for the replies. Yeah I kind of thought it might be hard to get a good sound recording everything at home. I just much prefer the idea of buying the gear and then having it to use forever instead of spending it on recording at a studio only to get home and find I wish I had done it a little differently (though I know this probably doesnt make economic sense). So do you guys think its better to get some hardware outboard for mixing at home or should I get a G5 and a UAD-1? (My G4 is a powerbook so unfortunately I cant ad a UAD-1 to it, I would need a G5 as well).

The music is electronic, but its more in the vein of radiohead than dance stuff. Thats the ind of piano soud im after, or like Max Richter's piano sound if you know him, sort of a rich, mellow sound. I heard some demo's of the east west Bosendorfer 290 piano plugin and I thought it sounded great, maybe I could get that to do rough mock ups while im writing the tracks and then re record them in a real studio when the time came?

How about on the vocal front? is it worth investing in a proper mic pre and good mic, or should I use the Studio projects C1 and focusrite voicemaster to lay down a rough sketch at home and then record in a real studio for the final recording? The cool thing about having one's own gear is all the time you have to mess around with it, often resulting in happy accidents you might not stumble across in the studio (though im not trying to convince myself to get more gear, thats just my thought process)

I feel like im at the stage now where im making a bit of money from my music (not much, granted) but if I am going to get new equipment I want to do it right and get something that will retain its value and usefulness. I wouold rather get a few high quality pieces than a bunch of stuff (for recording drums in my house) that is going to get second rate results. The goal of course is to get better results on the next record, not worse!


Again I cant thank you guys enough for the thought you have put into each of your responses. I can only hope one day I can offer so much input of value to someone else who is just starting out.

[lukejs]

If you want the best sampled piano, use your existing PC and convert it to a Gigastudio PC.... buy gigastudio 3, and buy the PMI Emporer/Old lady bundle..... you will be playing the most realistic sampled piano to date, complete with convolution impulse sampling of the soundboard, and acoustic spaces...... this could be your sampling pc......

[max cooper]

I guess what I have to add is that when I had my first 8-track studio (First a Tascam TSR-8 1/2" and then and Otari 5050) I learned the value if tracking at home, and it applied to vocals, guitar, keys, cellophane on a comb, whatever:

I could get a really relaxed "take" due to the fact that I was only on my own "clock". Sure, my recording chain wasn't as good, but I got some great performances, and not only that, but through the process of making several years worth of demo's, I got to learn my chosen instruments in a way I never would have otherwise simply because of the number of times I got to play or sing a track and hear it played back. Thousands in some cases, I'm sure. No engineer was going to set there and press record that many times. Instead of taking the life out of my performances, it taught me to be loose and "off-the-cuff" in the studio since the loose and off-the-cuff takes were the ones that sounded good.

The songs evolved too.

I'd highly recommend getting a good engineer on board early, though. Have mixes done. See if you're getting what you hear.

[John_McEnroe]

So it seems the consensus is to get a G5 and UAD-1 card in order to improve mixing at home, and record any real drums or strings in a real studio and then some time in the future see about getting a good preamp and mic for doing vocals at home when budget permits. Does this seem like a sound strategy to you guys?

[Revelation]

I have the UAD, actually two cards. You will need to spend the extra money to get the Cambridge EQ, Dreamverb and Fairchild compressor. They make the UAD worth the money.

Biggest improvements to your studio is better pre's decent mic's and good converters. The Langevin DVC is a dual channel unit with shelf EQ and two optic compressors. Check out the Manley Labs web site. You can't get two high end mic pre's with all these things under 2 grand any place else. A pair of KM 184 mic's for piano or acoustic guitar is a good option. Good converters would be something like the Mytek 2 channel A/D converter. Other option is the RME 8 channel converter for around $1,800. Then learning how to use it all will give you a much better recording.
Upgrading your monitors would be next, like the Mackie's or Tannoy System 800's.

Good luck

[John_McEnroe]

I think the UAD-1 Studiopack comes with all the plugs currently available including cambridge and fairchild etc. For monitors I have a pair of Mackie 824's which I am happy with. I dont have the money to get a G5 with UAD1 as well as preamps at the same time so it pretty much comes down to a choice:


G5 2.0 dual with UAD1 card and sampled piano plugin (in order to improve my mixing at home, and record the live stuff in a studio)

or

Preamps and some mics. (which I know nothing about, and mess about at home to get some cool results)

Both options i would expect to cost about $5000 canadian at least (these things always end up costing more than you expect)

[jajjguy]

I would recommend getting into recording the "real" instruments (besides vocals) yourself only if... you really want to record the instruments yourself!

Meaning, don't do it for sound quality or cost-effectiveness or convenience. It will likely be time-consuming, frustrating, expensive (though your budget will be ok to start), and, until you get very good at it, the results will sound amateur.

On the other hand, I find recording difficult acoustic instruments to be incredibly satisfying... All depends what you're in it for.

what kind of powerbook do you have? i have a tibook 867, and it works great for me. sure, i could use some more processing for my reverbs, but i work around it, and not with much difficulty. your mixes wont sound better just because the computer is faster.

imo a new mic and mic pre would be a higher priority than a computer. those things will make a lasting difference into the future, while your computer will just become obsolete in a few years.

as mentioned, getting good drum and piano sounds at home will cost a ton. doing that at a studio might make sense. investing in some good samples might be worth it as well.

[John_McEnroe]

My powerbook is a 1.25 with 1 gig of ram. Having the UAD1 will make my mixes better I know (I have used the card before) The only instuments I want to record with mics would be strings (perhaps) and piano and some drums (most are electronic) If I cant get good results recording those at home its not worth buying the preamp. Im sure if I was just mixing I cold get away with the laptop, but running softsynths really brings it to its knees. Just playing 4 notes on the new Logic 7 instrument Sculpture takes about 70% of the CPU.

If I am going to record those other instruments in a studio I may as well do rough vocal tracks at home and record the real vox in the studio as well as the piano etc...

I think the G5 will allow me ot be more creative than a preamp if I cant get the results im after at home.


Keep the thoughts coming though! This conversation is definitely helping me think things through.

[John_McEnroe]

Hey guys me again.

I think I found a way of getting both a G5 AND a good preamp. What do you guys think of this:

G5 2.0 dual $3300 CDN

UAD-1 Studio Pak $1000 CDN used on ebay

Focusrite ISA 428 $2325 CDN (A/D card $890, is it worth it?)

Sampled Piano (East west Bosendorfer 290 perhaps) $125 CDN


Some good Mics (especially vox) around $1500 CDN (less if possible)



This is about $7350 US


This way I get better mixing in the box but can still mess around with real instruments at home.

Is the ISA 428 a good box for the price? Good for vox? Good for Piano? Strings? Im attracted to it because of the reviews and the apparent value for money. If im only going to have one box of pre's is this a good one? Obviously im going to rent it to try it out but I would like to know if there is something else that is close that I could look at. I also like that it has an optional A/D card because then I can use it with my motu 828mk2 without buying a separate A/D converter (this is correct isnt it?)

I had originally wanted to budget for a 23" Cinema display but I could probably spend the money better this way.

Tell me what you think.

[manning1]

john. i dont wish to upset you, but there are people using amd 64 pc's with decent pre's and convertors .
just look back a few threads on slutz where someone posted as a heading AMD 64 rocks. if you considered this route you could save quite a bit of money. but its up to you.

[John_McEnroe]

Hey Manning,

I use macs for touring so I would like to stick to one platform. I used a PC in the past and while it was a great box I find I have been much more productive with macs. I also think staying with one platform is worth a bit of extra money. Thanks for the post though thumbsup .

[sixtoo]

I gotta agree...
your computer is more than fast enough to make a real record with decent effects... hell, in that instance, spend the money on front (2 mics, stereo pre/comp and a good AD converter...) then spend a couple hours in a good studio with tons of outboard for the final polish, after having almost finished mixes at home.

I'm in the same boat... but seriously. even in bad rooms for tracking, if you have enough time you can make it sound good... placement, experimentation and patience.

I record everything at home, with the occasional outing for drums if I need a huge sound.

[John_McEnroe]

Haha hey sixtoo, thats pretty funny. I was just looking at tom windish's site today because I was sending him some stuff, saw your name and now here you are! Thanks for the tips, its good advice. A buddy and I are setting up a bit of a home studio with quite a cool live room (6 metre's by 10 metres) so I would love to record real stuff in it. Ill probably rent the pres etc and see how we do before going nuts on a computer.

Again, thanks for the tips everyone, its quite an undertaking and all the help is much appreciated.

stike

[Kestral]

Originally posted by John_McEnroe
Hey guys me again.

I think I found a way of getting both a G5 AND a good preamp. What do you guys think of this:

Focusrite ISA 428 $2325 CDN (A/D card $890, is it worth it?)
Tell me what you think.

???

I thought you said a good preamp

[John_McEnroe]

Is the ISA not a good preamp? I dont see anything but glowing reviews for it... I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Can you recommend something better with 4 preamps for a similar price?

[Kestral]

People who use the Sytek rave about it:
http://www.sytek-audio-systems.com/p.../preamps/mpx4/