Mixdown Fact or Fiction?

[Ackman]

I was told by a producer who I respect, that it is better to:
1) Mix down from my current setup to 44.1k 24bit to another computer with a "okay converter", say a $500 TC Electronic Konnekt 24D, than to

2) Come back ITB at 96k 24bit and then convert to 44.1k 16bit within DAW mixdown function.

My set up:
In: outboard sources (mic, keyboards) -> Drawmer 1968 -> Orpheus Prism -> Cubase4
Mix: Cubase4 -> Opheus Prism -> PCM96 insert -> Drawmer 1968 2buss ->Orpheus Prism -> Cubase4 (stereo mix track)
Monitor: Orpheus -> Adam7

I usually export "Audio Mix" to 44.1K 16bit for final, or sometimes I will export "Audio Mix" to 96k 24bit and then convert to 44.1k 16bit using Barba Batch 4.

So my question is: Is the advice true? I think it makes sense to go out analog from Drawmer 1968 into a TC Konneckt 24D into a second computer (that I have laying around) at 44.1k 24bit or 16bit, to avoid SRC and dithering. Or would I be wasting $500+ and gaining nothing? What do you think?

What do you think?

[dhiltonlittle]

everybody has their own opinions on mixdowns. i wouldn't do that... the words ok converter scare me!

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by dhiltonlittle

everybody has their own opinions on mixdowns. i wouldn't do that... the words ok converter scare me!

Thanks - good feedback.

[Ameyerson]

seems like a perfect opportunity for a blind comparison.

[AlexRoudos]

Originally Posted by Ackman

I was told by a producer who I respect, that it is better to:
1) Mix down from my current setup to 44.1k 24bit to another computer with a "okay converter", say a $500 TC Electronic Konnekt 24D, than to

2) Come back ITB at 96k 24bit and then convert to 44.1k 16bit within DAW mixdown function.

My set up:
In: outboard sources (mic, keyboards) -> Drawmer 1968 -> Orpheus Prism -> Cubase4
Mix: Cubase4 -> Opheus Prism -> PCM96 insert -> Drawmer 1968 2buss ->Orpheus Prism -> Cubase4 (stereo mix track)
Monitor: Orpheus -> Adam7

I don't know if i get it exactly right but you have the Orpheus, a $5000 top of the line converters box and you want to go into another computer using the $500 TC Konnekt's 24D AD converter?

It sounds like a serious downgrade to me. But as i said i'm not sure if i'm getting it right.

[Ackman]

Fair comments. I found the advice to be a bit odd as well,and surprising coming from the producer. I wanted a sanity check to see if I was missing something. I haven't purchased anything yet so I can't do a blind test.

Going into another computer is an alternative to doing the SRC and dithering in Cubase. I am considering if there is a better way.

The Orpheus does SRC as well, so I think my solution is to come out of the Orpheus into my second computer in 44.1k 24bit via Optical SPDIF using the SRC in Orpheus. Thanks for the responses.

[CeretoneAudio]

check this out its way better than the SRC in cubase

Voxengo pc only

[DesertDawg]

I've got the free version of the Voxengo r8brain, and I've only used it for changing the samplerate on files I might need to import into a project at a different rate... do you happen to know if the SRC algo is the same in that version vs the "pro" version, with the only difference being more features on the "pro" version?

[KAJI]

Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio

check this out its way better than the SRC in cubase

Voxengo pc only

....and better that the one from ProTools, and from Pyramix, and from many many others.

60 bucks and a great SRC. Thanks Voxengo.

(I'm not a sales rep).

Peace

[CeretoneAudio]

Originally Posted by DesertDawg

I've got the free version of the Voxengo r8brain, and I've only used it for changing the samplerate on files I might need to import into a project at a different rate... do you happen to know if the SRC algo is the same in that version vs the "pro" version, with the only difference being more features on the "pro" version?

Dont think thay use the same SRc algo. There are 2 versions of R8BPro - ful and light that i think differ in features but free is i think somthing different. While your at it get Vox elephant to do your dither with its very gopod also.l

[KAJI]

Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio

Dont think thay use the same SRc algo. There are 2 versions of R8BPro - ful and light that i think differ in features but free is i think somthing different. While your at it get Vox elephant to do your dither with its very gopod also.l

ProFull allows over 48KHz output, while Lite only outputs until 48Khz. Free will only do something like a minute of conversion, and batch conversion is not possible either. I purchased ProLite and am very happy with it, I recommend it strongly.

Cheers.

[jjblair]

Originally Posted by dhiltonlittle

everybody has their own opinions on mixdowns. i wouldn't do that... the words ok converter scare me!

OK Converter is my favorite Radiohead record.

Wait ... oops.


Anyway, I'll tell you what works bette than any of that: With your master fader at 0dB, set all your faders so that you peaking at no higher than -15dB on the master bus, especially if you are using PT. The bus headroom is ghastly.

[dannygold]

Originally Posted by Ackman

I was told by a producer who I respect, that it is better to:
1) Mix down from my current setup to 44.1k 24bit to another computer with a "okay converter", say a $500 TC Electronic Konnekt 24D, than to

2) Come back ITB at 96k 24bit and then convert to 44.1k 16bit within DAW mixdown function.

My set up:
In: outboard sources (mic, keyboards) -> Drawmer 1968 -> Orpheus Prism -> Cubase4
Mix: Cubase4 -> Opheus Prism -> PCM96 insert -> Drawmer 1968 2buss ->Orpheus Prism -> Cubase4 (stereo mix track)
Monitor: Orpheus -> Adam7

I usually export "Audio Mix" to 44.1K 16bit for final, or sometimes I will export "Audio Mix" to 96k 24bit and then convert to 44.1k 16bit using Barba Batch 4.

So my question is: Is the advice true? I think it makes sense to go out analog from Drawmer 1968 into a TC Konneckt 24D into a second computer (that I have laying around) at 44.1k 24bit or 16bit, to avoid SRC and dithering. Or would I be wasting $500+ and gaining nothing? What do you think?

What do you think?

I don't get it... why wouldn't you just record back into your computer when you want external processing? Why is recording to another computer supposed to be better?

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by dannygold

I don't get it... why wouldn't you just record back into your computer when you want external processing? Why is recording to another computer supposed to be better?

I record and mix at 96k, 24bit. I have to put on CD (mastering) I have to convert to 44.1k, 16bit. The SRC in Cubase is not the best. I would try the Rbrain0 but I have a mac. I do have Barbabatch and that works better than Cubase.

I was exploring a better way. I've currently decide to use the SRC in the Orpheus, but I can not go back into the same file at 44.1k, 16bit, so I have to go to another device (CD recorder, another computer...).

My current solution is giving me the best results thus far, so I am happy with going out of my Orpheus into my second mac via optical SPDIF at 44.1k 24 bit. I still come down to 16bit, but conversion in wordlength seems to be less of a quality issue than SRC.

[delcosmos]

I'm using 2 mixdown systems:

One with a Lavry Gold "AD122-96MKIII" @ 96/24 for mastering delivery and a second System with a Finalizer at 44/16 for CD client references.

This way everything sounds great. The client gets a hot CD for reference and the mastering house gets a High resolution file, in my opinion, the Lavry Gold is the best converter ever!!

Best regards.

Delcosmos.

[KAJI]

Originally Posted by Ackman

I still come down to 16bit, but conversion in wordlength seems to be less of a quality issue than SRC.

Does it? Am I wrong when I say wordlength is most important to watch for?

Originally Posted by jjblair

OK Converter is my favorite Radiohead record.

Wait ... oops.

This has got to be the funniest and coolest thing that has been said in GS in a long time!thumbsup

[matt thomas]

It won't be technically "better" recording into another computer

but you may get some colouration from the DA-AD stage, this will depend totally on your set up, maybe your producer friend likes this, although my guess is that he hasn't done a double blind test, if any test, between the two options.

the way to tell is to do a double blind test, see which one you prefer.

narco

[A440]

I guess the true slutz answer is to buy yourself some top notch converters for the second computer.

[Jim Williams]

I use the PCM4222 or the Crystal 5396 fed from the analog outputs of the console. I set the wordlenght to 16 bits, noise shpped via digital hardware filter.
The PC takes the data as a 24 bit file. Sample rate is 44.1 k hz. The disc is burned as it's 24 bit, although the data stops at 16 bits. No truncating, noise shaping, dither is used. Sounds like what I hear off the console. Every software bit reducing scheme sucks out the air. My way doesn't. BTW, the PCM4222EVM is $149 from;
Analog Technologies, Semiconductors, Digital Signal Processing - Texas Instruments

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by CeretoneAudio

check this out its way better than the SRC in cubase

Voxengo pc only

+1

Don´t do it in Cubase. R8brain pro full is great. Dither with Elephant and be fine.

[bexarametric]

I always do 88.2 because it sounds right to me. It seems to convert to 44.1 better. Maybe cause it's a multiple? I don't know too much about the conversion process. I just know what sounds right.

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by bexarametric

I always do 88.2 because it sounds right to me. It seems to convert to 44.1 better. Maybe cause it's a multiple? I don't know too much about the conversion process. I just know what sounds right.

it´s a myth...

[jjblair]

Originally Posted by Flying_Dutchman

it´s a myth...

Actually, it depends on the quality of the dithering. Try some sum and difference tests, and you'll hear incomplete cancellation.

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by jjblair

Actually, it depends on the quality of the dithering. Try some sum and difference tests, and you'll hear incomplete cancellation.

SRC has nothing to do with dithering.

[u b k]

the original advice is insane. record back into the prisms, src with the best algo you can get.

unless tc has pulled some kind of conversion coup, 96k prism into the stock apple src will sound much much better.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by delcosmos

I'm using 2 mixdown systems:

One with a Lavry Gold "AD122-96MKIII" @ 96/24 for mastering delivery and a second System with a Finalizer at 44/16 for CD client references.

This way everything sounds great. The client gets a hot CD for reference and the mastering house gets a High resolution file, in my opinion, the Lavry Gold is the best converter ever!!

Best regards.

Delcosmos.

That makes sense. I think I will adopt a similar plan.

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by Peacock

Avoiding SRC will save a step but most mastering engineers want 24/96. I f you are handing out a copy of the mix then mixing down to 16/44.1 might make sense. We usually mix to 24/96 to eventually send for mastering.

That is what I've been doing for the client - but I will mix to 24/96 for professional mastering. Thanks!

[DesertDawg]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I use the PCM4222 or the Crystal 5396 fed from the analog outputs of the console. I set the wordlenght to 16 bits, noise shpped via digital hardware filter.

So, Jim, did you just buy the PCM4222EVM evaluation module & that's already got connections for i/o's & power on it, or???

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by DesertDawg

So, Jim, did you just buy the PCM4222EVM evaluation module & that's already got connections for i/o's & power on it, or???

Yes, but I did strip off the BB balanced opamp, I didn't care for it's sound. I added an extra pcb for my own analog input circuits. As usual, I found the converter's supplied analog buffer lacking, but love the converter chip. All the other eval pcb's I have around here are similar, gutted analog, re-done.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[DesertDawg]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Yes, but I did strip off the BB balanced opamp, I didn't care for it's sound. I added an extra pcb for my own analog input circuits. As usual, I found the converter's supplied analog buffer lacking, but love the converter chip. All the other eval pcb's I have around here are similar, gutted analog, re-done.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Thanks, Jim - I may give that a shot, then... that's not very much dough to toss into an experiment that might be interesting to try.

While we're on the subject of going out external to another DAW or digital deck vs. rendering a mix in the same app/box, is anyone still enjoying the Masterlink for this? I know they were hot for a couple years there & I remember seeing lots of people say that they felt the convertors sounded pretty damn good... are many people still finding that they like the results better than ITB mix rendering?