Adam S3A + Sub

[steins]

I´ve just had the pleasure of mixing 3 songs on a pair of S3A´s. When I switched back to my usual pair of monitors (JBL LSR28P), I found my mixes to be quite bass-heavy (in a bad way) compared to what I usually end up with using the LSR28´s. I blame this on my lack of mixing skills and not knowing the S3A´s as well as I should, but I can´t help feeling a need to complement the S3A with a decent sub in order to get control all the way down...

How are you S3A users dealing with this? Are you using subs/larger mains, or do you feel you get enough information from the S3A´s alone? I found them extremely pleasing and easy to work with despite my inability to judge the low-end on them, so I´m ready to switch.

Stein Tore

[matucha]

Weren't the S3A in the different room or at different place in the room? I don't know about JBLs, but I can't complain about bass with S3A alone. I'm getting it OK most of the time... as my little roomiiee allows.

[steins]

The S3A's were placed on the same speaker stand as the LSR28's.

Stein Tore

[matucha]

well...

[Ruphus]

Stein,

Not to be a smart ass and you probably know this anyway, but I found the following more weighing with the P33s ( which are a similar build like the S3As ) than with my former speakers and others.

The S3As will probably have different outer dimensions than the JBLs.
In case you have them upright the middle spot between tweeter and the bottom range cone has to be precisely on ear level.
I have a listening triangle of ~ 1,4 m here and when I get only slightly above or under that certain spot auditioning gets quite different already.
Just in case it where about such.

Ruphus

PS: I wouldn´t think speakers like these to be needing additional sub woofer. I´m currently on a mix with a knobbly bass and a hefty kick. The P33s are kicking so much into the chest already at low levels ... thumbsup

[faeflora]

Originally posted by steins
I´ve just had the pleasure of mixing 3 songs on a pair of S3A´s. When I switched back to my usual pair of monitors (JBL LSR28P), I found my mixes to be quite bass-heavy (in a bad way) compared to what I usually end up with using the LSR28´s. I blame this on my lack of mixing skills and not knowing the S3A´s as well as I should, but I can´t help feeling a need to complement the S3A with a decent sub in order to get control all the way down...

How are you S3A users dealing with this? Are you using subs/larger mains, or do you feel you get enough information from the S3A´s alone? I found them extremely pleasing and easy to work with despite my inability to judge the low-end on them, so I´m ready to switch.

Stein Tore

The LSR28Ps are heavily slanted into the bass. Since you're going to the adams, which are flatter, you're mixing to hear what you used to have to hear through your LSRs to get a balanced mix.

You need to learn your S3As.

I suggest ditching your LSRs.

I get the sub info I need to mix with the S3As. You can hear down to 30hz which is deep enough to know if your mix is hitting the subsonic frequencies hard enough.

I still check my mixes on mega bassy systems (I also have a mediocre PA with Mackie SA1232s for that and for casual loud listening ) and usually, I'm not surprised. The low end on the S3As is really accurate and clear.

[lucey]

the S3-As are very tight in the bass register ... if you can hear it, it's there. if you hear it slamming, you've overdone it!

[RKrizman]

Oddly enough, I too have gone from LSR28's to ADAMs and experienced the same deal. The bass on the JBL's is luxurious and rewarding compared to the S3A's. I use the latter for critical balancing but then check the low end on the JBL's. I'd keep the LSR28's. They're a way more fun tracking speaker and you can crank them and enjoy, which you just can't do with the ADAMs.

-R

[steins]

Thank's for the informative replys!

I probably end up keeping the LSR28P's and ditch my NS10's in favour of the S3A's. Seems like a good plan right now...

Stein Tore

[hbj]

I found the same thing when I first got my S3As. I loved 'em but was not happy at all with the low end translation.

What did it for me was reading somewhere that the S3As are spec'ed to be a certain distance off the wall. So I played with distance, and bingo, I got it. Mine are about 16" off a standard sheetrock wall. I can't imagine needing more bass.

Maybe that will help you.

Best of luck -

[Tetness]

The S3A's have great bass. Give them a chance. Get used to 'em.

[Killahurts]

I even have an ADAM Sub1, but only use it for surround. I go straight into the S3As whenever I work with stereo. Believe me, if I thought I was missing any part of the bottom octaves, I would use the sub.
The S3As not only reach 30Hz, they do so without breaking up.

But mine are 5 feet from the front wall and nearly 8 feet from me, so the bass has a lot of air to "bloom" into. I very well might have to use a sub if I ever put them in a smaller room that didn't support the lows right, or if I ever had to use them as nearfields (gross).

[toolskid]

reference reference reference

[syra]

I like the S3A's better with a sub...I use the adam sub 10 or sm...it does makes a difference in my ears...

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by steins

I´ve just had the pleasure of mixing 3 songs on a pair of S3A´s. When I switched back to my usual pair of monitors (JBL LSR28P), I found my mixes to be quite bass-heavy (in a bad way) compared to what I usually end up with using the LSR28´s. I blame this on my lack of mixing skills and not knowing the S3A´s as well as I should, but I can´t help feeling a need to complement the S3A with a decent sub in order to get control all the way down...

It sounds [from your description] to me that you're looking for a "big booming bass" while you're mixing... you've gotten used to the bass being out of proportion [like you'd find it at the "big rock show" vs. the band in the rehearsal space].

I'd recommend you try the ADAM S2.5A's because that is more of the curve they do. That curve doesn't work for me, but it works for many... I like a speaker [monitor] where the bass would seem light to some folk... it allows me to get the bass information to sit in the balance as I feel it should sit [where I might end up a bit "bass light" on other systems].

For me it wasn't a case of learning S3-A's it was a case of NOT having to learn the S3-A's... they gave me something in which I could believe as a gospel truth for the sound(s) I want to hear when I'm working. My mixes don't sound like "the big rock show"... they don't have a big swelling bass that make things larger than they are... remember, I come from the generation that had to deal with mixing for 'cutter heads' and Jensen 'coaxial' speakers on the rear deck of a Camaro, in my reality the bottom needs to hit as hard as possible with the least amount of speaker excursion [which also means not taxing the amplifier(s), allowing the amps a bit greater headroom/clarity/distinction].

Often for me, the bass sits more in the lower midrange which makes it more difficult to get the clarity and definition we'd like to achieve in the lower regions of a mix... which is where the S3-A's really shine for me as they give me a good quantity of lower mids which forces me to make sure my lower midrange arrangement is well articulated. In many [too fukking many!!] modern mixes I've heard the lower mids are just absent so the point is moot [and the record sounds boring IMNTLBFHO], or worse, they're a washy ball of shit... with the S3-A's I have found the ability to arrange the lower mids in an articulate manner that allows the bass to come through as planned without getting boomy... but as always, YMMV

Best of luck with it.

[steins]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

It sounds [from your description] to me that you're looking for a "big booming bass" while you're mixing... you've gotten used to the bass being out of proportion [like you'd find it at the "big rock show" vs. the band in the rehearsal space].
<snip>a lot of wisdom regarding bass mixing snipped</snip>

Well, that was a very informative post Mr. Fletcher. Since I posted this 6 months ago, I´ve actually done a lot of re-thinking regarding bass mixing, especially since the mixes I ended up with using the ADAMs are some of the best I´ve done. Which, of course, doesn´t mean a lot, but they got some airplay over here, and they hold up much better than any other mixes I´ve done to date. I could go on about this, but I´ll just say that you nailed the "problem". The problem were not the speakers or the room, it was my perception on how bass should be mixed......which is a lot better now.

I haven´t heard the 2.5´s, and I´ve already ordered a pair of S3A´s, but thanks for the tip. I´ll check them out.

Since my room does not have any large mains I still keep the LSR28 for checking lows and for tracking in the CR, but I dont get those "bass suprises" any more.

Stein Tore

[alphajerk]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

which is where the S3-A's really shine for me as they give me a good quantity of lower mids which forces me to make sure my lower midrange arrangement is well articulated. In many [too fukking many!!] modern mixes I've heard the lower mids are just absent so the point is moot [and the record sounds boring IMNTLBFHO], or worse, they're a washy ball of shit... with the S3-A's I have found the ability to arrange the lower mids in an articulate manner that allows the bass to come through as planned without getting boomy... but as always, YMMV

Best of luck with it.

i found this as well. man, how i hate to hear the typical low mid cut now on rekkids. now i attack the low mids and really make them prominent as can be where i used to tend to shy away more from on other speakers... and wonderfully, it translates outside of them

the bass CAN be tricky on the S3's because they are quite tight on the bottom... if you are feeling air on your face, you have too much low bass on them.

[matucha]

lowmids.... exactly... it is the most absent range in the most modern recordings

With my previous speakers, I always get rid of lowmids, because they were always muddy, but when I brought S3A to my pit, suddenly everything's changed. From hyper compressed anemic bottom, I started to do bottom more dynamicaly and I hate records that doesn't punch you when the volume is up.

[Ruphus]

Originally Posted by alphajerk

the bass CAN be tricky on the S3's because they are quite tight on the bottom... if you are feeling air on your face, you have too much low bass on them.

I have a similar impression with the P33s ( though they are supposed to be a bit less tight in the bottom than the SA3s.)

( Havn´t explored them entirely yet, but so far that´s what I thought.)

Ruphus

[lordmiguel]

Got rid of my 5080's nd 7070 which i didn't use except to hear below 80hz. I can't hear my sub bass with the s3a's *which i love* and want to get an adam sub 12.

Could someone please give their opinion of the s3a/sub12 setup, my production is suffering.

I love the 3sa's for rock but for anything beyond that Jay-Z tight kick for R&B hip hop i hear nothing.

Help much appreciated!

[blackwatch]

I'm loving my new S3A's. Low end stacking has become so much more refined. I don't really **** much with anything under 50hz, it all gets rolled off.


Why not try tweaking the <150 Hz EQ on the front panel up a tad to suit ur needs?

[Bendybones]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

It sounds [from your description] to me that you're looking for a "big booming bass" while you're mixing... you've gotten used to the bass being out of proportion [like you'd find it at the "big rock show" vs. the band in the rehearsal space].
I'd recommend you try the ADAM S2.5A's because that is more of the curve they do.

Ok, I'm a bit confused...
Does this mean that the bass from the S2.5A's is basically somewhat disproportionate and inaccurate by its nature?
I know the S2.5A's are roughly 1000euro less expensive than the S3A's but they are still an expensive monitor and highly spoken of in reviews.
Such an inaccuracy seems absoulouely out of the question for a studio reference monitor and not at all what I have come to expect from ADAM (purely based on reviews as ADAM are not sold in Ireland)
I have heard great things about the S3A's and plan to buy a pair VERY soon, but would jump at teh chance to get one of their cheaper monitors if I thought it was still good enough for a smallish room.

What do the S3A user's among u class as the lower limit on room size necessary to get accuracy from the S3A's?
Thanks,
Bendy

[djui5]

Originally Posted by lordmiguel

I love the 3sa's for rock but for anything beyond that Jay-Z tight kick for R&B hip hop i hear nothing.

Help much appreciated!

It's probably your room.

[delcosmos]

In my specific case, the sub solved all my low end problems, I use 2 pairs of S3a with sub, one for my work station and one over my console for mix.

I've noticed that "distance thing" too, I've found that if the speakers are to close from me, I tend to put the vocals louder, so I've found a sweet spot on this.

I love my Adams, it is true that they are room dependant, they never worked well on my old studio.

Best regards.

Armando Avila.

[David Brown]

I just had my monitoring tweeked by Mike Chafee (great guy with great ears). We added a second 1071 sub and a center S3-A (for surround). We spent the day tweeking, moving the console, speakers, etc. and listening to a variety of music. The FFT analysis confirmed what we were hearing (or doing), but Mike's ears lead the day. We found the proper distance and location for everything, sometimes moving things an inch or so, listening to the result, and then FFT analysis.

A single sub with my S3-A's never filled the room with a balanced low end. There were always hot spots. Adding the second sub solved that problem. We set the S3-As vertically (flipped the tweeters). All the tweeking was with the controls supplied on the 1071's or S3-As. No external EQ was used. The imaging is stunning and all the guessing about what was going on in the lower octaves is solved. Genelec subs are a great match with the S3-As. If you have this much invested in your room and monitors, you owe it to yourself to bring in someone for the analysis and final set-up.

Monitoring is the key!

David Brown

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by David Brown

All the tweeking was with the controls supplied on the 1071's or S3-As. No external EQ was used.

Hey David, what settings did you end up with on the S3's? Not that it would work for everybody of coarse, but just out of interest.

Funny thing about these monitors - turning the tweeters down doesn't necessarily give you less high end.

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by djui5

It's probably your room.

Hey randy, I don't think its the room, the 7070a was fine, and if anything my room is tighter than a minister's daughter. When I used to crank the 8050's with the 7070a it blew people away how tight the bass was all round the room, consistent and defined. I shoud analyze it again, maybe my room absorbs too much bass.

Originally Posted by delcosmos

In my specific case, the sub solved all my low end problems, I use 2 pairs of SA3a with sub, one for my work station and one over my console for mix.
I've noticed that "distance thing" too, I've found that if the speakers are to close from me, I tend to put the vocals louder, so I've found a sweet spot on this.
I love my Adams, it is true that they are room dependant, they never worked well on my old studio.
Best regards.
Armando Avila.

Armando, thanks as always for your thoughtful posts. Can you tell me what sub you are using where you are crossing over? Thanks for the distance tip, how far away is your sweet spot on the s3's?

Anyon else using any Adam subs?

[lordmiguel]

Originally Posted by David Brown

I just had my monitoring tweeked by Mike Chafee (great guy with great ears). We added a second 1071 sub and a center S3-A (for surround). We spent the day tweeking, moving the console, speakers, etc. and listening to a variety of music. The FFT analysis confirmed what we were hearing (or doing), but Mike's ears lead the day. We found the proper distance and location for everything, sometimes moving things an inch or so, listening to the result, and then FFT analysis.

A single sub with my S3-A's never filled the room with a balanced low end. There were always hot spots. Adding the second sub solved that problem. We set the S3-As vertically (flipped the tweeters). All the tweeking was with the controls supplied on the 1071's or S3-As. No external EQ was used. The imaging is stunning and all the guessing about what was going on in the lower octaves is solved. Genelec subs are a great match with the S3-As. If you have this much invested in your room and monitors, you owe it to yourself to bring in someone for the analysis and final set-up.

Monitoring is the key!

David Brown

David, thanks for the input and explanation.
Forgive me, what 1071 sub are you referrring to? Didi you mean 7071?

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by lordmiguel

Anyon else using any Adam subs?

I have a ADAM Sub1 (not made anymore, has two 10" speakers), and a surround set of S3's. At first I only used the sub in 5.1 work, going directly to two S3A's for stereo. Then I just went full time with the sub. It definitely has more mojo with the sub, but my mixes didn't turn out/ translate as well. So now I've gone back to straight S3's for stereo work.

When I do use the sub, it's with an M&K LFE4 bass manager, which crosses at 80Hz.

[delcosmos]

Originally Posted by lordmiguel

Hey randy, I don't think its the room, the 7070a was fine, and if anything my room is tighter than a minister's daughter. When I used to crank the 8050's with the 7070a it blew people away how tight the bass was all round the room, consistent and defined. I shoud analyze it again, maybe my room absorbs too much bass.



Armando, thanks as always for your thoughtful posts. Can you tell me what sub you are using where you are crossing over? Thanks for the distance tip, how far away is your sweet spot on the s3's?

Anyon else using any Adam subs?

I'm using ADAM SUb 10, it blends perfect with S3A.

Best regards.

Armando Avila