"close micing" cymbals

[maskedman72]

i have heard of close micing cymbals. how does this differ from just doing oh micing? how close can you/should you get to the cymbals?

[NIGHT'SCHILD]

I tried that once and the results were "interesting." The best way I found was to place the mic pretty close to the cymbal about 8-12 inches away. (Normally that is not considered close micing but for a cymbal it might be.) I used the -10db pad on my pre-amp and a lot of comression to stop from peaking. I found this method worked best with the figure 8 pattern setting on my mic and the mic placed directly above the cymbal. That seemed to really phatten it up. Of course I kept my normal overhead mic about 4 feet away. The main difference I found in close mic'ing was that you get less shimmer, more crack, less room acoustics and a lot more bleed from the rest of the drums, maybe not the best idea.

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by maskedman72
i have heard of close micing cymbals. how does this differ from just doing oh micing? how close can you/should you get to the cymbals?

I find close micing most cymbals to sound unnatural. To my ears there is never enough room sound with this method, it forces the engineer to close mic everything more than necessary, and the low end on the cymbals never sounds right when the mics are close as there is generally too much proximity. 'Close' to my ears is generally less than 30 inches. 'Cymbals' meaning those that are used for accents (crash, splash, etc); high hat and ride can possibly be a different story (although I haven't close mic'ed a ride or hh in about 6 years).

If a drummer is good, then you shouldn't have a problem getting a good balance of the kit with a pair of properly place overheads and a single kick drum microphone. This method will sound somewhat airy and 'old school' (ala Rolling Stones, etc) IMO, but even if adding adding additional close mics like on snare and toms, checking the balance between the three mics is the first step in finding out if your overheads are properly placed. For me, this is the best starting place in creating the foundation for the drum sound. Another thing to think about is that the more mics you add to the kit, the more trouble you will run into with phase relationships. With a basic 5 piece kit I try to keep it to 7 mics (overhead spaced pair, top snare, inside kick, one per top tom). It gives me everything I need and the phase relationships are easy to manage with placement. Tom mics are actually taken out (via DAW editing) until they are played, in other words no bleed from the toms comes through. It eliminates the need for gates, and keeps the kit to a simple 4 microphones on basic parts.

The only exception I've seen to this is with a few metal drummers, where their kits are so dead that it's a must to close mic and/or use samples exclusively, and the overheads are brought in closer than usual with high hat and ride mic'ed seperately.

[doorknocker]

Try to mic a cymbal from the side, almost touching the edge, as a special effect. Supposed to be done sometimes by Geoff Emerick on Ringo's kit.
Could be useful in addition to the 'normal' OHs, EQ to taste.

Andi

[Han]

Close micing a ride cymbal and hi hat with a ribbon like the Beyer M160 or 260 works very well.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by Han
Close micing a ride cymbal and hi hat with a ribbon like the Beyer M160 or 260 works very well.

If your doing that watch out for wind blasts from the hats or a direct hit from a drum stick.

The only time I've ever seen anyone close mic cymbals in the studio was when I assisted Jason Corsaro. We stuck 414 EB's within a foot of the cymbals, I think hypercardiod with a pad and roll off. There was also a stereo ribbon WAY over the kit, a pair of U87's about ear height a few feet in front and I remember him having those higher up in the rough mix.

The only things I'll close mic are a ride or hi-hat if I need it. Generally I don't close mic cymbals. Never sounds right to me.

[borut]

mic too close to the cymballls always sounded horrible to me.
except when micing hh or ride.
the sound is so unnatural because you pic up way too much of the cymball moving,twistin, .... and it sound like the ugliest flanging, phasing.....
fuuck

it just doesn't sound like drums!!!

[maskedman72]

so what is considered a "normal" distance to place the mic's from the cymbals? if you take a tape measure and place it in the center of the kick drum and measure from center of kick to each o.h. capsule,than from capsle to capsle,should it make a equidistant triangle?

[Jules]

In a shitty room, I get in closer to avoid too much 'distant room trash' signal of the drums themselves

I close mic rides sometimes, favorite is a better cymbal that cuts through without the need.

A potential debate - is cymbal mic distance music genre specific?

[dale116dot7]

I've also used the close-mic on cymbals to try cleaning up a bad (cheap) drum kit. I use a bright SDC on them (like the new C451B), pretty close (maybe 6 to 20 cm) and move the mic around to find the least evil sounding spot. The bright SDC helps offset the low-frequency components you get when up close. Not ideal but it seems to work ok if the signal source is marginal.

[7rojo7]

is cymbal mic distance music genre specific?

yes this seems to be

death-speed-thrash metal 2 mics on every kick and drum 1 mic on every (group of) cymbal(s) you can get up to 20 mics and channels with gates on 10 busses

Reggae-Haitian-African mic the HH

any kind of latin american mic the Afuche' even if you can hear it in all the other tracks

Symphonic don't mic the cymbals

new jazz x-y close

old jazz mono over mono front same room double bass with amp pno sax tpt bone are drum room mics.


Shotgun snares opendoor hallway room kick room on the floor snare room in the opposite corner mic in a wash bucket in front of the kik
it's all genre specific
3mustafa3 recorded a record in an abandoned swimming pool with a stereo mic for the basic tracks and it was awesome

[loudist]

If you are going to get close to anything with that much HF content, a condenser is not your friend.
Same goes for recording percussion.
Ribbons and other dynamics are better choices.

[LTA]

Originally posted by 7rojo7
death-speed-thrash metal 2 mics on every kick and drum 1 mic on every (group of) cymbal(s) you can get up to 20 mics and channels with gates on 10 busses

Many of these guys will actually have 2 or 3 LAYERS of overlapping cymbals. They get pretty nuts (and its fun to confirm they only hit about 40% of them over an entire session). Its usually the rides that get overpowered.

I've had good luck popping an audix D1 (or any other dynamic with a high frequency bias) underneath rides. Crashes and chinas tend to have enough volume potential to be picked up, but sometimes they will be physically masked from the overheads by more chinas. If you can't see the cymbal from the overhead position (get a step ladder if you can't visualize), you are going to have to add more mics or change mic positions. Or just live with the decreased presence.

[The Reel Thing]

Hi there,

I recently did a drum recording for a singer/songwriter kind of production. There were several other instruments in the live room, and I still wanted an intimate drum sound. I used Royer R-121 as overheads, about a foot above the rack tom and the stand tom (the cymbals all hung very low). It's a nice, thick 'old school' sound, lots of toms on the tracks, all very natural-sounding. I used an Oram Sonicomp in 'optical' mode to adjust the tom level right during recording. During the mix I found that I didn't need anything else but a little support from the kick mic (D12) and the snare mic (441 top/ Audix D1 bottom) to get a wonderful, rich, natural drumset.
You have to be very careful, though, if the cymbals aren't all the same height. It's very easy to catch comb filter effects, especially with figure-of-8 pattern.

Oh, yes, and I used an SM 57 through an 1176 as a room mic - very impressive result!

Cheers, Tom

[PaRaNoId]

never had goood results close-miking anything other than a ride cymbal as far as that stuff goes. Mics too close to HH always sound distroted to me in the HF register.

[loudist]

Originally posted by PaRaNoId
never had goood results close-miking anything other than a ride cymbal as far as that stuff goes. Mics too close to HH always sound distroted to me in the HF register.

Hence, condensers are not your friend in close miking things with mucho HF energy.
Try dynamics for close work.

[drundall]

Originally posted by PaRaNoId
never had goood results close-miking anything other than a ride cymbal as far as that stuff goes. Mics too close to HH always sound distroted to me in the HF register.

People have been using condensers for close micing hi hats for decades. You might try another mic, preferably with a pad.

I also believe close micing of cymbals is genre specific.
Most fast punk, if approached with traditional drum micing methods, will quickly turn to dfegad . Everything has to be tight and close and you won't be getting much help from the drummer. Cymbals need to cut and you're not looking for a lot of depth and detail from the OH, as you would with slower rock.

Also as Jules pointed out many sessions like this are recorded in smaller rooms.

JMO.

[loudist]

Originally posted by drundall
People have been using condensers for close micing hi hats for decades. You might try another mic, preferably with a pad.

*Sigh* and there are plenty of records with distortion on the sizzles too.

If one is going closer than 5 inches or so, its dangerous territory with a condenser.

BTW, some of those distorted sizzles are on records I recorded.
The thing is that HF clipping isn't a grainy/crunchy distortion, it creates a sub frequency like there is bottom end added, but not exactly nice bottom end.
Same with tamborines recorded at a foot away with a condenser on the 2/4 hits it feels/sounds like its folding over momentarily.

[cdog]

My cymbal micing setup is a pair of close spaced KM184s aimed at the crashes, a KSM32 on the hat and a KSM 141 on the ride, both Shures using the roll offs. (BTW the KSMs are great).

When you have the hat and ride individually mic'd, it gives you lots of mix options... if you don't need the extra hat or ride sounds, you can always leave them out of the mix....

Always use room mics if possible...

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally posted by loudist
Try dynamics for close work.

SM7 on hat rocks.

[jon]

Close cymbal spot miking is useful in my experience, particularly with the kind of drummers I often get who have many cymbals over giant drum kits, to bring out the cymbal parts in a dense rock/metal mix. Depending on the song in that sort of genre, I may have 3-4 mics on individual key cymbals.

I agree with loudist about dynamics being ideal for this job.

For me, a lowly SM57 works wonders on close cymbal spot miking. A 421 is okay, too.

[drundall]

Originally posted by loudist
*Sigh* and there are plenty of records with distortion on the sizzles too.

If one is going closer than 5 inches or so, its dangerous territory with a condenser.

I disagree completely.
But then I do rock records so it sounds right to me for that.

I do agree that an sm57 can sound good on hats in the right situation.

[7rojo7]

I have 3 M260's that are good for this, if I mic a HH the choice of mic depends on which music it's for and what other mics I have up for the rest of the kit. For metal type things I basically forget about trad OH and rely on some rooms for a little ambience if it's appropriate, I make the "stereo" (toms mixed to 2 and cymbals mixed to 2). Some types of jazz (I prefer AB OH and 1 in front of the kit pointing down, however) need the HH mic, I'll match the OH's and point it at the same angle as the HH side OH using the 3 to 1 rule, toward the outside of the kit as not to pick up too much snare. Reggae and African will get a condensor. some rock will get 3 260s close covering L,C,R instead of HH and OH and are used to get the whole kit, not just cymbals (I really like this one).
Most close micing tech is used to synthesize a drum sound and not to capture a real image of a drum set

[Lexicondonn]

I use 2 Crown PZM mics on a 12x12'' piece of plexi-glass, one on each side (180) in a vertical position about 30 inches up. I go into my Aphex 1100 tube pre. I think it sounds great and very natural. Me being a drummer I'm ok with this.

Plus it's the only freaking matched pair of mics I own.

I would like to try the figure 8 ideas but I'm using that on my Roto toms.

for Rock drums I too use the 1176 for the room mic with the AT4060

Kicks very well

[loudist]

PZM's are really good as an overall pickup... I am with you about them being very natural sounding.