The studio guitar sound

climbsyke · 26th April 2008

HI I'm a newby!! I'm going to be recording shortly with my new band, and I want to try and get that really thick rock guitar sound like Zakk Wylde on no more tears or Nuno on Pornograffitti. Two different sounds I know but surely there must be a method to get that huge punchy sound. I want to be able to tell the engineer what sort of thing I'm after but not knowing how its done I'm finding it difficult to put it into words. Any ideas?

RCM - Ronan · 26th April 2008

I would recommend that you try and set up a meeting with your engineer well in advance of the sessions and play him those CDs and tell him what you are going for.

Keep in mind that those are both great guitarist recording through high quality tube amps. The tone of the player and the amp is far more important to getting that sound than anything your engineer can do.

climbsyke · 26th April 2008

Fair point. Its just that where I am nobody seems to be recording that type of music, and having been extremely dissapointed with the results last time we went to a studio I want to make sure its right. How much of the big punchy sound comes down to the engineer and how much is down to the amp/guitar/player?

RCM - Ronan · 26th April 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by climbsyke

How much of the big punchy sound comes down to the engineer and how much is down to the amp/guitar/player?

90% amp and player + %5 engineer not screwing it up + 5% engineering tricks.

Really, if you take a great guitarist playing through a great tube amp, you can put an SM57 in front of the grill, move it around for 2 minutes and have an amazing guitar sound.

If you are going to show up to the studio with a guitar that is not well set up and a line 6 amp, the engineer can spend 3 weeks trying to dial in the sound and it will not be close to sounding on par with the players you mentioned. Also it can not be overstate how much of a factor you as a player are. The tone in the players fingers can have more to do with the sound than the amp.

James Meeker · 26th April 2008

Most of the tone of those artists are coming from the player. Zakk and Nuno were first rate guitar players with tons of talent behind them. Most of their sound is coming from their fingers.

You've gotta make sure that the sound you want is coming out of your amp before mics and recording even enter the equation. If the sound you have now at practice isn't *THE SOUND* you're not going to get it in the studio.

Find your sound. Perfect you technique.

The rest is easy. You give me the sound coming off the amp and we're golden. If you don't have that sound yet.... you're not ready and we're never going to get it.

The ball is in YOUR court, not really the engineer's. Just make sure to pick an engineer that isn't going to screw it up.

thepleasureman · 26th April 2008

I have had a lot of success acheiving great sound with a Palamino V32H and V212. The V32H is all tube and has a great tube screamer, nasty over drive, briliant gain, detailed reverb and EQ. With little to no outside FX you can get that sound your looking for out of this head and cab. Let the tubes warm up for about 30 minutes and your golden!

These have been on back order through most of 2005 & 2006 and now they just announced that production has stopped on these...They have priced dropped substantially from $1500 for both to $576 out the door if for the HEAD AND CAB! Thats if you can find em...(some online stores still have them, musicians friend & GC)

Did I mention this head and cab is super quiet and ideal for tracking? I held my fender american hss up next to this cab and basically no static or feedback with the single coils switched on! When I was auditioning amp combos, heads, and cabs I kept coming back to this setup and price was not an issue. I was looking to drop up to 3k on a head and cab and this combo gave me that sound I was looking for.

If you have a Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or retailer give them a call and ask if they still have any of these and go demo it. You will see what I am talking about. If you don't have the coin to add this to your toolbox bring your axe down to the studio for a quick amp A-B. If they have some open time and you already booked a session they wont mind giving you an hour on the house to try to find that sound...(this will also save you tons of cash on setup when your session comes around)

bob st john · 27th April 2008

everybody here is making VERY good points. you have to have the sound you want first before you go into the studio...it's that simple.

i can't say much for zakk (although i recorded him once back when i had more hair

but certainly i've recorded most of nuno's records with extreme (including the soon/eventually to be released fifth album). nuno's sound is different on every record. although they all sound like him...his taste changes from time to time. but as mentioned earlier in this post...so much of the tone is defined by the player. nuno playing through a fender champ STILL sounds like nuno.

so starting with a sound that YOU feel comfortable playing with (i.e. enough tone, crunch, sustain and response to your fingers) you have to THEN work with an engineer who understands not only how to capture (mic, mic pre, etc) but also what kind of changes you may need to make to the sound to come closer to what you are looking for based on recordings that you will show him, whatever band that may be. keep in mind, that the end product you hear on a CD has been recorded, mixed and mastered. it would be unrealistic to expect your sound to be "exactly" as you hear it as those finished products have gone through several steps of eq/compression, etc. you MUST know that there are no studio tricks that will fix this unless you have what you want to begin with.

i rarely record...99% of my work is mixing. however, i'm still amazed at how MANY bad distorted guitar tracks i receive. poor mic placment, strange sound issues, etc. personally, i think the art of capturing a players' sound is more based on what mics you choose, and your placement in front of speaker (or speakers) that you use. my best advice...especially if you're dealing with an engineer who may not be accustomed to recording major label work, is to make SURE that he uses ONE mic. not two, not three...but ONE. one of the most common mistakes i hear when mixing is distorted guitar with bizarre, phase-y mic combinations (or worse still, when the client provides me 3 or 4 (!!!) tracks of mics, every single one apparently NOT in front of the speaker's sweet spot...UGH!) it's best to work with that one mic...then perhaps add a room mic if you want. i can't say i EVER used a room mic with nuno, and from working with michael wagener on extreme II, i didn't see him use any room mics either. all of those sounds are nice and tight...good crunchy high end and nice, round bottom. when i doubt...it's best to simplify. i'm NOT saying NOT to TRY a bunch of different mics to see which one sounds best...but you'll have to work with your engineer to see that he sits down on the floor in front of the cabinet...and finds which of the speakers sound the best (they ALL sound different to me) and then you find the mic that works the best. 87's always work for me...but the sometimes 57's work. then sometimes 67's work. it all depends on the rig and the studio.

all that said...i typically record guitar with an 87; sometimes i'll add in a 67 but they are equidistant from the speakers so they are at least in the same time domain to avoid phase issues. i personally feel that mic'ing guitar amps with multiple microphones is NOT for the inexperienced or faint of heart...but your milage may vary.

i agree with james and ronan...if you don't have the sound you want...how can we capture it? i feel you should meet/audition engineers before you work with them anyways. so much of recording is based on the working chemistry between the artist and the engineer...and a bummer engineer will surely make you waste more $$$ than you can imagine. make sure you feel comfortable with the engineer...and make sure you hear records YOU like on his monitors...they are going to be your point of reference, too...

and by all means...if you are unsure...take a direct out of your distortion pedal (if you're using one) and record that into protools. at the very least...you'll be able to recreate something with amp farm if you have to. yes, even nuno uses amp farm (worked on several mixes and i was MOST surprised to find it on the tracks

and guess what? it STILL sounds like nuno. go figure

Jay Kahrs · 27th April 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by climbsyke

Fair point. Its just that where I am nobody seems to be recording that type of music, and having been extremely dissapointed with the results last time we went to a studio I want to make sure its right. How much of the big punchy sound comes down to the engineer and how much is down to the amp/guitar/player?

I'd say 80% player and 20% engineer...

There are no big tricks or anything... there ARE some... but not many.

Great players almost always have their tone together, and at that point I find it's usually as easy as picking a microphone and running it into a great preamp before hitting the big red button. Usually move it around a little bit, dial the amp EQ around a little if needed... but generally I'm cutting flat and making sure the blend with the other instruments is solid from the beginning.

For big rock double or triple the rhythm tracks, do some underdubs to reinforce riffs where needed... Usually two mics per pass. Summed to one track? Two tracks? It varies according to the rest of the production & what the artist is/isn't digging...

If there aren't any 'good' recordists in your area who really "get" what you're about, look elsewhere! Many people travel... I'm 30 minutes out of NYC but have recorded all over the country in the last few years...

A really hack AE can tank even the most amazing artists...

AC Long · 30th April 2008

It's just a great player playing a Les Paul. Quadruple tracked.

My advice would be to go for your "own" sound. If you try to copy someone else, you'll always come up short.

AC

phillysoulman · 1st May 2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Meeker

Most of the tone of those artists are coming from the player. Zakk and Nuno were first rate guitar players with tons of talent behind them. Most of their sound is coming from their fingers.

You've gotta make sure that the sound you want is coming out of your amp before mics and recording even enter the equation. If the sound you have now at practice isn't *THE SOUND* you're not going to get it in the studio.

Find your sound. Perfect you technique.

The rest is easy. You give me the sound coming off the amp and we're golden. If you don't have that sound yet.... you're not ready and we're never going to get it.

The ball is in YOUR court, not really the engineer's. Just make sure to pick an engineer that isn't going to screw it up.

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

BLueROom · 1st May 2008

to reiterate my point (was deleted in the GS meltdown))

the bass guitar plays a HUGE part in how the disto guitar comes across. If that bass track is glued to the guitar the guitar is instantly more massive.

26th April 2008	#1
climbsyke Gear interested Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 2 Thread Starter	The studio guitar sound HI I'm a newby!! I'm going to be recording shortly with my new band, and I want to try and get that really thick rock guitar sound like Zakk Wylde on no more tears or Nuno on Pornograffitti. Two different sounds I know but surely there must be a method to get that huge punchy sound. I want to be able to tell the engineer what sort of thing I'm after but not knowing how its done I'm finding it difficult to put it into words. Any ideas?

26th April 2008	#2
RCM - Ronan Lives for gear Joined: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 4,414	I would recommend that you try and set up a meeting with your engineer well in advance of the sessions and play him those CDs and tell him what you are going for. Keep in mind that those are both great guitarist recording through high quality tube amps. The tone of the player and the amp is far more important to getting that sound than anything your engineer can do. __________________ Ronan Chris Murphy+ http://ronansrecordingshow.com Six Day Recording Boot Camps in Los Angeles July 16-21, 2012

26th April 2008	#5
James Meeker Lives for gear Joined: Nov 2007 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 2,311	Most of the tone of those artists are coming from the player. Zakk and Nuno were first rate guitar players with tons of talent behind them. Most of their sound is coming from their fingers. You've gotta make sure that the sound you want is coming out of your amp before mics and recording even enter the equation. If the sound you have now at practice isn't THE SOUND you're not going to get it in the studio. Find your sound. Perfect you technique. The rest is easy. You give me the sound coming off the amp and we're golden. If you don't have that sound yet.... you're not ready and we're never going to get it. The ball is in YOUR court, not really the engineer's. Just make sure to pick an engineer that isn't going to screw it up. __________________ "Art is magic delivered from the lie of being truth." ~ Theodor Adorno My music: http://www.reverbnation.com/studiodrome

27th April 2008	#7
bob st john Gear nut Joined: Jun 2006 Location: south florida Posts: 103	everybody here is making VERY good points. you have to have the sound you want first before you go into the studio...it's that simple. i can't say much for zakk (although i recorded him once back when i had more hair but certainly i've recorded most of nuno's records with extreme (including the soon/eventually to be released fifth album). nuno's sound is different on every record. although they all sound like him...his taste changes from time to time. but as mentioned earlier in this post...so much of the tone is defined by the player. nuno playing through a fender champ STILL sounds like nuno. so starting with a sound that YOU feel comfortable playing with (i.e. enough tone, crunch, sustain and response to your fingers) you have to THEN work with an engineer who understands not only how to capture (mic, mic pre, etc) but also what kind of changes you may need to make to the sound to come closer to what you are looking for based on recordings that you will show him, whatever band that may be. keep in mind, that the end product you hear on a CD has been recorded, mixed and mastered. it would be unrealistic to expect your sound to be "exactly" as you hear it as those finished products have gone through several steps of eq/compression, etc. you MUST know that there are no studio tricks that will fix this unless you have what you want to begin with. i rarely record...99% of my work is mixing. however, i'm still amazed at how MANY bad distorted guitar tracks i receive. poor mic placment, strange sound issues, etc. personally, i think the art of capturing a players' sound is more based on what mics you choose, and your placement in front of speaker (or speakers) that you use. my best advice...especially if you're dealing with an engineer who may not be accustomed to recording major label work, is to make SURE that he uses ONE mic. not two, not three...but ONE. one of the most common mistakes i hear when mixing is distorted guitar with bizarre, phase-y mic combinations (or worse still, when the client provides me 3 or 4 (!!!) tracks of mics, every single one apparently NOT in front of the speaker's sweet spot...UGH!) it's best to work with that one mic...then perhaps add a room mic if you want. i can't say i EVER used a room mic with nuno, and from working with michael wagener on extreme II, i didn't see him use any room mics either. all of those sounds are nice and tight...good crunchy high end and nice, round bottom. when i doubt...it's best to simplify. i'm NOT saying NOT to TRY a bunch of different mics to see which one sounds best...but you'll have to work with your engineer to see that he sits down on the floor in front of the cabinet...and finds which of the speakers sound the best (they ALL sound different to me) and then you find the mic that works the best. 87's always work for me...but the sometimes 57's work. then sometimes 67's work. it all depends on the rig and the studio. all that said...i typically record guitar with an 87; sometimes i'll add in a 67 but they are equidistant from the speakers so they are at least in the same time domain to avoid phase issues. i personally feel that mic'ing guitar amps with multiple microphones is NOT for the inexperienced or faint of heart...but your milage may vary. i agree with james and ronan...if you don't have the sound you want...how can we capture it? i feel you should meet/audition engineers before you work with them anyways. so much of recording is based on the working chemistry between the artist and the engineer...and a bummer engineer will surely make you waste more $$$ than you can imagine. make sure you feel comfortable with the engineer...and make sure you hear records YOU like on his monitors...they are going to be your point of reference, too... and by all means...if you are unsure...take a direct out of your distortion pedal (if you're using one) and record that into protools. at the very least...you'll be able to recreate something with amp farm if you have to. yes, even nuno uses amp farm (worked on several mixes and i was MOST surprised to find it on the tracks and guess what? it STILL sounds like nuno. go figure Last edited by bob st john; 27th April 2008 at 01:19 PM.. Reason: because i can't stop talking :)

30th April 2008	#9
AC Long Gear maniac Joined: Jan 2008 Location: Taiwan Posts: 194	Wylde sound:Quadruple! It's just a great player playing a Les Paul. Quadruple tracked. My advice would be to go for your "own" sound. If you try to copy someone else, you'll always come up short. AC

26th April 2008	#6
thepleasureman Gear interested Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 22	I have had a lot of success acheiving great sound with a Palamino V32H and V212. The V32H is all tube and has a great tube screamer, nasty over drive, briliant gain, detailed reverb and EQ. With little to no outside FX you can get that sound your looking for out of this head and cab. Let the tubes warm up for about 30 minutes and your golden! These have been on back order through most of 2005 & 2006 and now they just announced that production has stopped on these...They have priced dropped substantially from $1500 for both to $576 out the door if for the HEAD AND CAB! Thats if you can find em...(some online stores still have them, musicians friend & GC) Did I mention this head and cab is super quiet and ideal for tracking? I held my fender american hss up next to this cab and basically no static or feedback with the single coils switched on! When I was auditioning amp combos, heads, and cabs I kept coming back to this setup and price was not an issue. I was looking to drop up to 3k on a head and cab and this combo gave me that sound I was looking for. If you have a Guitar Center, Sam Ash, or retailer give them a call and ask if they still have any of these and go demo it. You will see what I am talking about. If you don't have the coin to add this to your toolbox bring your axe down to the studio for a quick amp A-B. If they have some open time and you already booked a session they wont mind giving you an hour on the house to try to find that sound...(this will also save you tons of cash on setup when your session comes around)

1st May 2008	#11
BLueROom Lives for gear Joined: Jan 2005 Location: SF, CA Posts: 1,411	to reiterate my point (was deleted in the GS meltdown)) the bass guitar plays a HUGE part in how the disto guitar comes across. If that bass track is glued to the guitar the guitar is instantly more massive. __________________ ------------------- E. Wesley Hill ::Supersonic Samples::Premium Drum Replacement Library/ WAV & GOG Heavy Hitters Edition coming soon! -------------------

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
That guitar sound that I need	mattyd	High end	69	19th September 2008 03:10 PM
getting a stereo sound from one guitar	fingerz	So much gear, so little time!	7	13th April 2008 01:14 AM
2007 US Economic Census-Sound Recording Studio and Sound Recording Related Industries	Lynn Fuston	High end	5	22nd January 2008 10:33 PM
Say, what's this guitar sound?	jared	So much gear, so little time!	3	5th April 2006 03:20 AM
Incubus guitar sound	Boby Stoica	So much gear, so little time!	3	26th October 2004 06:05 AM