PT HD, want to add reverb box

[s0nguy]

All,

I have PTHD3 with one 192, standard configuration and, since there is no software reverb that holds a candle to a hardware unit, I want to add an external reverb box like the Lexicon MX400/90/91 or a TC M2000/3000/4000.

Currently my audio I/O looks like this:

OUTPUTS:
1. SEND, Left channel to UA2192
2. SEND, Right channel to UA2192
3. OPEN
4. OPEN
5. OPEN
6. SEND, to Neve 2252
7. SEND, to left channel of 2-1176
8. SEND, to right channel of 2-1176

Inputs:

1. OPEN
2. OPEN
3. OPEN
4. OPEN
5. OPEN
6. RETURN from Neve 2252
7. RETURN from left channel os 2-1176
8. RETURN from right channel of 2-1176

Digital I/O:

1. AES/EBU input from 2192
2. AES/EBU inputs from 2192


I am not using the extra digital card that is installed in the 192. Can I get a reverb unit that does AES/EBU and patch it to the AES on the expansion card that comes standard? I remember that using multiple digital I/O on the 192 is a nono... I just cant remember why..

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!

-s0nguy

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by s0nguy

since there is no software reverb that holds a candle to a hardware unit, I want to add an external reverb box like the Lexicon MX400/90/91 or a TC M2000/3000/4000.

You do realize that those units are all running software with an additional step of A/D-D/A conversion beyond your PT D/A-A/D conversion [complete with added latency]?

I once read a post on Harmony Central where some guy was looking for a DA-88 because he "liked the sound of tape".

Somehow this is resonating in a similar manner.

I dunno... I must be a complete moron... I don't get stuff like this.

[s0nguy]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

You do realize that those units are all running software with an additional step of A/D-D/A conversion beyond your PT D/A-A/D conversion [complete with added latency]?

I once read a post on Harmony Central where some guy was looking for a DA-88 because he "liked the sound of tape".

Somehow this is resonating in a similar manner.

I dunno... I must be a complete moron... I don't get stuff like this.

Fletcher,

Yes I realize this... and I should have qualified my post with the following:

"Please, no hardware vs. software reverb debates. Try to limit reponses to a solution to my question. Thanks!"

In my experience, I have not found a reverb plugin that provides the immersion feeling of my old Lexicon (PCM90). I have reverb1, altiverb6 and ren verb. All sound "fine" but very flat and unrealistic.

It has always been amazing to me that since the HD cards are essentially just processors, why cant a TDM reverb plugin make me feel that same way the lexicon did?

Please don't compare me to that guy... it is insulting.

-s0nguy

[Jonathan Starr]

Check out the recent posts about Lexicon's new PCM 96. They are just delivering the first batch (one of which I am patiently awaiting).

In addition to analog & digital I/O, they deliver 2 channels through a firewire connection and appear just like a TDM plugin.

Played with one at NAMM; seemed like a great unit at a reasonable price. Hope they aren't too buggy out of the box.

[mixerguy]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

You do realize that those units are all running software with an additional step of A/D-D/A conversion beyond your PT D/A-A/D conversion [complete with added latency]?

I once read a post on Harmony Central where some guy was looking for a DA-88 because he "liked the sound of tape".

Somehow this is resonating in a similar manner.

I dunno... I must be a complete moron... I don't get stuff like this.

well..... if the original poster has a spare digital IO (aes or ADAT) he could use the TC 4000 - a great box that SMOKES any reverb plugin that I have ever used.

the plates, halls and EMT 250 emulation are all OUTSTANDING

you could buy one used for between $1500 and $2,000

Fletcher - did you not think of using a digital i/o?



besides - even if i didnt have a way to use a digital i/o with my tc 4000 - (and had to go analog in and out of it) i'd still pick it over any reverb plugin i have ever used

[s.d.finley]

You can assign the enclosure AES or SPDIF to one pair of the 16 i/o that your 192 can use. In fact, I do this with a Lexicon MPX550.

My 2 favorite ITB verbs are Revibe and UAD plate 140. I still use the lexi tho...

[whitepapagold]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

I must be a complete moron

+1.

[logichead]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

You do realize that those units are all running software with an additional step of A/D-D/A conversion beyond your PT D/A-A/D conversion [complete with added latency]?

I once read a post on Harmony Central where some guy was looking for a DA-88 because he "liked the sound of tape".

Somehow this is resonating in a similar manner.

I dunno... I must be a complete moron... I don't get stuff like this.

Using a hardware digital reverb in PT, there will be additional latency both from the reverb's conversions and also from using PT i/o for a hardware insert, but PT can compensate for it's own latency. All that's left is the latency of the hardware reverb, but that should be no different from using it in an analog studio.

Even if it were a few thousand samples, I don't think the reverb's latency would be noticeable as a wet only aux return. It's effect might be a millisecond or three of additional pre-delay at 44.1.

Any loss of audio quality would likely be barely noticeable - again as a wet-only aux return. The difference between analog or digital insert might be noticeable to some, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. I remember something about Roger Nichols doing multiple analog bounces on ADATs and not being able to notice a difference until 10 (I'm guessing here) bounces. With modern converters and a pristine source, who knows how many conversions it would take to hear problems? I suspect that the layering of noise from the analog side of the process would be the tip-off.

Anyway, I use a cheap Lexicon (MX-400) as an analog insert in PT (with AD/DA16x's) and the same reverb digitally inserted in Logic (with an Ensemble). I don't hear a noticeable difference. The sonic differences between PT and Logic are more apparent, at least to me.

I also have a bunch of software verbs and they are missing something compared to the Lexicon. They sure are convenient though. I'm waiting on a PCM96....

Best....H

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by s0nguy

"Please, no hardware vs. software reverb debates. Try to limit reponses to a solution to my question.

My point was that the "hardware" units you listed are all "software based"... the "hardware" is about "analog to digital conversion" [to get to the software] then "digital to analog conversion" to get the audio out of the unit. The "reverb" effect is done in the DIGITAL domain.

A "hardware" reverb would be something like an EMT plate, a "spring" reverb, or an acoustic chamber where the reverb is created in the ANALOG domain.

FWIW we have a UAD card and reverbs in our Logic rig... I have found many of the available reverbs to be as good and in many cases better than ANY Lexicon or TC unit I've tried... though not quite as good as the plates in the Kurzweil KSP-8, but some of the 'hall' and 'chamber' programs are just as good [and in a couple of cases, better].

I wasn't trying to debate "hardware vs. software"... I was merely pointing out that the units to which you were comparing software [in the computer] reverb were indeed software based just like the "standalone hardware digital reverbs" you listed... much like a DA-88 ain't a "tape machine" it's a "standalone hardware digital recorder".

Peace.

[bob st john]

hey i'm a reverb freak but...

fletcher states the obvious but YES a physically working analog model as a plate or spring reverb is REALLY hardware

if you really like the "sound" of your pcm 90, then why not just hook it up as a piece of analog gear? i like the sound of the 224x, and it obviously predates any sort of digital i/o...i'm not as concerned about latency on something like reverb so i don't think it's much of an issue.

these units, including their D/A converters...have their own character...based not just on software but by the way the entire software/hardware combination sounds. i don't think doing an extra conversion step on protools HD is a big thing.

it's all about what works for YOU...

as far as digital...i was perfectly content with the lexicon 300 for quite some time...but just got sick of negotiating through the menus and traded it for something else