So how would you describe the difference between an analog synth and an VSTi synth?

[lllubi]

low and high end are more fun to work on
where there is no lows how can i add them in the box?

[Belaya]

[amp]

Originally Posted by MarkyGoldstein;

Now that we have both co-existing..

For example the difference between a
Moog Voyager
and an
Arturia Moog (Emulation)

For example, does the analog go deeper and smoother in the bass?

Any difference?

Please only write those who really know

oomph

[space2012]

DEPENDS....

SOUND QUALITY OF DIGITAL VA SYNTHS DEPENDS IN THE WORDCLOCK, CABLES & DAC YOU USE TO HEAR THEM...

I LIKE MORE VAs WITH THE BEST WORDCLOCK AND DACS.

If want to hear some .mp3 demos of the Yamaha AN VA algorithms,
try to hear them with a verry good wordclock , etc...
and with telos mp3 decoder...
ftp://ftp.telos.cc/audioactive/aadec114.exe
bottom of the page are the links...
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/334248-sale-kenton-plugstation-yamaha-plg150.html

[RyanC]

I own an xpander, a waldorf pulse plus (which kinda counts) and a SS PRO1. . .

I doubt if digital will ever come close on the xpander or the pro one. . .they just have so many beautiful design flaws. . .both of those are like vintage mics in that It's hard to emulate something that differs from unit to unit. I notice the pulse seems to go about a 3rd lower in the bass without sounding crapped out also, so I like it for that but it's a bitch to program and the presets basically suck.

That said. . .I love VIs also, with the 128 buffer in PT HD, I have no issues with latency. . .I can sit and play for hours, it helps to have your stuff setup to where you can get the monitor in close proximity to the keyboard. 96k also makes a pretty big difference with most VI's, and it's hard to deny the beauty of being able to sync reliably to your session tempo. Also a little dose of reel tape, or MCDSDP analog channel does wonders. . .

But, the biggest problem I have with VIs are the FX. I really wish that they would include a whole bank of presets without the crappy reverb and overdone delay etc, it seems as though they think that VI's are used only for new age music. . .no offense to new agers, but an ocean of verb just aint my thing

[space2012]

Originally Posted by MarkyGoldstein

Now that we have both co-existing..
For example the difference between a
Moog Voyager
and an
Arturia Moog (Emulation)
For example, does the analog go deeper and smoother in the bass?
Any difference?
Please only write those who really know

your question has too many variables.
for example, all non chip, hand made analog synths sound diferent.
component tolerance, temperature, AC, human error, etc...

and emulations are bassed in just 1 or 2 units.

thats why diferent brand but same hardware emulation sounds diferent,
arturia, vs. gforce vs. sonic.core/creamware emulation, vs. steinberg model-E emulation, vs. ik multimedia samplemoog, vs. etc...

all emulations sound different, and all are accurate as possible, but all are based on diferent serial numbers.
same happens with arp 2600 from arturia vs. timewarp2600

thats where the personal taste comes.
see youtube videos, download demos, make A/B tests, etc...

VAs if they are same brand and model, they will sound the same, or verry verry similar, becouse are mass machine-produced, and production technology has advanced considerably, and component tolerance is minimized.

but diferent brand and model of VAs sound diferent, not only becouse they have diferent algorithms.
nord vs. roland vs. yamaha vs. waldorf vs. etc...

VSTi and VAs are verry dependant of the soundcard "DAC" and wordclock precision they use for playback, and also the ADC used for recording.

any VSTi/DXi will sound totally diferent with diferent soundcards
for example:
atomic master wordclock + mytek DAC or ua2192 + 99,997% OFC cables or better
vs.
same VSTi/DXi with a soundblaster live 5.1 pci

all plugins will have same variable. soundcard makes them sound diferent.
also VAs,

but some VAs & plugins can do things no real analog hardware synth could do,
like polyphony, mititimbral, weird routings, add instances until you reach max "80%" cpu load, add more with fx-max teleport, etc...
but...
Most VAs have a fixed DAC and a fixed wordclock, some are betters than others.
Roland JP-8000 sounds a bit diferent than Roland JP-8080, with same code, but diferent circuit design, some say diferent chips, capacitors, op-amps and crystals.

some VAs have digital outs, that can be used for reclocking to a higher quality clock and also be able to use a higher quality DAC.

thats why i like my kenton plugstation adat outs + yamaha plg150-an
reclocked to my drawmer m-clock <1ppm,
with Lynx AES16 + ls-adat or Rme hdsp9632,

the same PLG150-An sounds totally diferent,
much more detailed, upfront, punchier, more 3d, etc...
PLG-150-An are only 20-Bit data, that travels in a 24-Bit path.

20-Bit = 122.16dB
theres no AD or DA in this world cappable of reproducing true 20-Bits,
they al have 24-Bits, but cannot have true 20-Bit dynamic range, noise, etc...

another diference its latency.
digital has latency. midi has latency, and jitter, and deviation.

the best soundcard has true 32samples I/O,= 0.77ms in + 0.77ms out,
like Lynx AES16, but has no MIDI,
RME has one of the best Asio and midi drivers.
pci better than firewire, etc...
also...
converter latency,
all chips have diferent latency,
most are arround 1.52ms AD or DA.
some are twice that, some are half like RME ADI-8QS, altman micro machines, etc...

also sample rate,
some plugins are not well designed to work at double or quad sample rates, filter frequency is multiplied, making diferent sound.

AC line noise.
analogs, and DACs are affected by the quality of the AC line.
Furman AR-15 Series II or better is recomended.
****
with Yamaha Dx7, theres more variables,
DX7 has 12-Bit DAC.
TX7 cant remember.
DX7 ii has 16-Bit DAC.
DX200 has 24-Bit DAC but has a PLG150-Dx inside, dont know if PLG150-DX is 20-Bits or 24-Bits.

Nativeinstruments FM7/8, its a verry accurate emulation of the Yamaha DX7, and has 24-Bits.
but its verry dependant of the soundcard and wordclock you use for playback/listening.

all other FM DX emulations are not as accurate.
there was a russian website, that has 100s of .mp3 between diferent FM emulations.

all comes down to personal taste.

[James Lehmann]

Well, we can argue all night about a vaguely defined concept like "telling the difference" but it's probably more useful focus on how and why you might actually use a plug-in vs the real thing...

My feeling is that you can safely bury all manner of plug-in sounds into a track and no-one is really going to notice one way or another, but when you simply have to have a really growling bassline, some massively warm thick pads or a creamy lead sound all mixed right upfront that's where the differences can really show.

I'm a big believer in ante-ing up WAV's to make a point - have a listen to this track of mine Floating Point or this track Slump, crank up the volume and tell me if you think you could get a plug-in to sound as fat, funky and 'alive' as that Waldorf bassline or the Juno lead sequence melody. I say you couldn't - and as someone pointed out these particular synths aren't even strictly full-blown analog. On the other hand some of the more subtle background stuff is plug-ins - mainly NI Pro V and I'm very happy with how that sounds too.

I could redo the tracks entirely with plug-ins and end up with something broadly similar but I can guarantee they won't have the same mojo.

[GYang]

There is difference between analogue synths from various ages, also between analogue and virtual analogue, finally VSTi emerged with good potential to be next huge step forward.
Some VSTi are genuine synths that don't have too much in common with hardware synths, so such VSTi provide good ground for experiments and searching new sounds.
There are classic sounds that require classic processing and mixing and IMO although simulations came pretty close they are still just close emulations.
Prophet 5 with analogue effects and into analogue mxer has absolutelly different dimension than ITB counterpart.
Creative moments with hardware synths are different than creative moments on PC.
There is something called INTERACTION, something in electromagnetic waves that only analogue circuits produce and for that reason people still keep all those big, faulty boxes call vintage synthesizers.
In some arrangements I don't need old sounds and still new synths (digital or analogue) win over VSTi.
Some VSTi synths are great by their own merits.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

My feeling is that you can safely bury all manner of plug-in sounds into a track and no-one is really going to notice one way or another, but when you simply have to have a really growling bassline, some massively warm thick pads or a creamy lead sound all mixed right upfront that's where the differences can really show.

that's how i see it as well.

when i saw the thread title the word that popped into my head is 'palpable'. analog synths have a quality of coming forward out of the speakers and extending back into them at the same time, where plugs cannot. plugs can get wide, but they don't have the same depth or weight.

this organic quality they have is what makes them so magical; they tend to sit better in mixes, less processing needed.

finally, i'm sure it's already been mentioned: they can make sounds that digital synths simply cannot and probably never will. the opposite is also true, which is why all of these are valid tools, useful means to an end, the end being art.


gregory scott - ubk
.

[Batchainpuller78]

To me the biggest difference (apart from the sound) is that I can physically play these instruments, they are instruments, a Minimoog is meant to be played, on the keyboard and on the knobs, It's like a hammond, change the tones effects and registers during your performance.

I even dislike modern and even the early analog synths where they are controlled digitally or via midi.
because of the delay I feel when I tweak the knobs.

Hmm of course the other difference is for a little amount of money you can get a whole bunch of software synths that need no maintenance.

Thanx to ebay Analog synths have become very pricey.

[GYang]

Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78

Thanx to ebay Analog synths have become very pricey.

Not only Ebay, but various forums, too.

[sheever]

Originally Posted by triez

The real synth sounds like it is in the room with you, the plug-in sounds like it is coming out of the speakers.

I like this explain a lot.
I recognized this long ago and i cant use any softsynth anymore...
even if its digital, i like my DX7 better than FM7(but very good emulation thought) and i can hear difference between those stuffs.
from techical side thanks your answer space2012!

[pulse_divider]

Originally Posted by drBill

I may get blasted for this, but IMO, anything with a DCO is NOT a real analog synth. Like I said before, the drifting analog oscillators is a huge part of the sound.

Actually, it's still an analog oscillator, it's just synced to a high frequency digital clock.
It won't drift like a VCO but it's technically still analog.

[auddoc]

I have 20 or so vintage synths, many vintage samplers, but not too, too much experience with plug-ins. I have serviced synths and samplers since the 70's, so I understand technically, in some detail, what happens when you twiddle the knobs.. Aside from the enormous PITA it is to maintain this fleet of CEM, SSM and discrete transistor equipped axes, or boxes full of obsolete RAM and equally obsolete disc drives, I prefer the real deal. The few times I have ventured into plug-in land I invariably go back to the Moog, Oberhiem,SCI, Siel, EMU, AKAI, Yam, Voyetra,etc. Why? My thereory.....please disagree, if inclined. The plug-ins are way too in tune...the often bally-hooed word "fatness" seems to simplisticly,be a function of being not perfectly in tune. It's very difficult to achieve perfect tuning with a pile of thermally drifting VCO's and VCF's. There is a certain random quality to the respective "out-of tune-ness" that is very appealing for certain types of music. Its not just the VCO's, but the randomness of of the filter parameters that I like. Even after a Martha Stewart-like, **** tuning and calibration pre-session.
With old-school samplers, there is also the matter of resolution or low sample rates. For example, my original Emulator is 8 or 12 (?) bit, but just barks through a track, like nobody's business. For certain sounds...oboe, cello, violin, sax, etc., it just kills. Other sampled sounds on it, are so profoundly wretched and vile, that you just wanna open up a vein.
I however, certainly understand why you would not want to own and have to maintain these beasts, but merely hit a button on your mouse.

[GYang]

Originally Posted by auddoc

I however, certainly understand why you would not want to own and have to maintain these beasts, but merely hit a button on your mouse.

Modern time effectiveness and laziness.
Real is real fun

[vespiz]

There is just something that.. balks at me when twiddling with VST instruments and the like. I have the Korg Polysix and Wavestation EX and tried their "soft" counterparts. The Wavestation came closer to the real thing (no surprise there) but the P6 just.. wasn't there.

Tho' I have to say, owning these synths is a pain and a half, as I've noticed in the last 6 months or so. I just glued on the vector joystick on the Wavestation, my P6 is in the shop (trying) to be fixed, CS-40m is broken (blows fuses), RS-505 acted wonky some time ago but now seems to work, SH-2000 sometimes goes horribly out of tune and the keyboard double triggers, etc etc.. Mostly its little things that crop up to become bigger issues.

But the sound!! I also have to have keys in my synths, because I'm a player at heart. There it is, just grab it and play!

[Batchainpuller78]

Well there you go, that's the biggest difference these can be played.

If you are into playing these are real instruments IF you are into programming get the VST stuff.
HOwever I'm into programming but with analog sequencers and CV/Gate stuff and man that is funky!!!
If I have like 7 synths going plus drummachines, and everything is somewhere connected with in and outs going from the synths all across the place you get 1 organic system with currents flowing all over the place and everything starts influencing on and other it's just bliss to play like that.

I do get the things with the maintenance, my RS-505 is very wobbly as well at times,
But i'm done collecting, only thing i'll ever buy is one of those new modular systems.
and I'm saving up to have all my synths refurbished.

I mean it really like all answers here depends on what you want to do with it.
software synths will have their use and sound for sure, but if you are into playing and creating full electronic analog music, there's only one way.

I love Eliane Radigue the now 78 year old granny making music with her ARP 2500 for the last 30 years or so... she went like yeah I tried Digital it has cost me two years of my life!

The comments about the tuning with analog oscillators is right on, if you want to make the sound fat it's about not being perfect in tune
The Korg Mono/Poly has a detune knob, you can tune the 4 oscillators and then with one turn of the knob you can pull them apart and instantly the sound grows fatter.