Can you recommend a Mic+Preamp (£700-1000))? (please!)

[sach160]

Hi all, I use a c1000s direct into my roland 840ex for vocals, and genereal consensus is that's suicide.

So I need a mic and preamp. I hear some pairings just click and get a better sound than on their own. Can anyone suggest any worth tryin out? I'd like to spend £700 but I could spend £1000 if it makes a real difference. I was thinking maybe an sm57 or a SP C1 and spend the rest on gettin the best preamp i could afford, then in the future I could upgrade just the mic. Or maybe I'll get better results splitting the cash 50/50 on a mic and preamp. Any thoughts on this too!?

I know i'll have to try a few things out and it depends on where i record/my voice etc, but to get an idea, any recommendations really appreciated. I dont know it helps, but my voice is somewhere between dylan and springsteen in sound, I sing both with grit and clean, ballads as well as rock n roll songs. I work in a small room too, so maybe rejection is important when recordin both guitar and voce at the same time.

Any thoughts anyone!? Would be realllllllllllly appreciated, as am very lost, despite doin loads of research on web.

[NathanEldred]

There are a lot of options you can go with on that budget. For a Dylan/Springsteen sound I'd go with either a Beyer 160 or Shure SM-7 (not 57) and a 'Neve'-esque preamp, a mono channel from Vintech or Great River. If you want a little more bite to the top frequencies a Sennheiser 421 II will work well also. Those preamps should work quite well, because they are going to have a lot of coloration, and plenty of gain. Since those three mics are lower output they will need the additional gain. Should be pretty smooth IMHO.

[sach160]

nathan, thanks thats some awesome soun din advice... I think I might go for the sennheiser mic, as high end bite would be good. I have a large vocal range, and tend to use all of it. Incidentally, someone recommended a used sennheiser 441, dya reckon the 421 is more what I'm after?

Although I can spend a grand I'd rather spend 700 and since I hear a great mic is prob ore important than a great preamp., are there any cheaper preamps than the vintech and great river, that still suit my sound?

Thanks so much for your help man, I'd be pretty lost without it!

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by sach16
nathan, thanks thats some awesome soun din advice... I think I might go for the sennheiser mic, as high end bite would be good. I have a large vocal range, and tend to use all of it. Incidentally, someone recommended a used sennheiser 441, dya reckon the 421 is more what I'm after?

Although I can spend a grand I'd rather spend 700 and since I hear a great mic is prob ore important than a great preamp., are there any cheaper preamps than the vintech and great river, that still suit my sound?

Thanks so much for your help man, I'd be pretty lost without it!

It's hard to say whether you need a 441 versus a 421, the 441 tends to come off as generally cleaner to my ears, which may or may not be right for your voice. I recommended those three mics originally because they will fit in your budget with room left over for the better preamp. The 441 is over double the cost of the 421 which unless you want to spend more, it isn't in your stated budget.

As far as cheaper preamps that suite your budget...my personal opinion is that it's a bad idea to skimp on the preamp. You'll get better results with a high quality dynamic and a great preamp, instead of choosing a top level dynamic and an average preamp. Glad to hear this helps.

[sach160]

thanks 4 posting again nathan. I went to a couple of shops to try out mics.

They were both adamant that a condenser mic is much better than a dynamic and that a good tube condenser would be best. One guy recommended an ADK CE - he said its the only tube mic under £1000 worth goin for (he didnt have it on demo), and the other guy said an SE Electronics Gemini (and he also said SE, ADK and Studio Projects are all pretty similar quality Chinese mics). Here i tried out a midrange adk, my c1000s and an sm57 - the adk sounded much better (fuller and more rounded than the other 2, c1000s sounded worst)

So I'm really confused now! I told them both the same stuff as told ya (home recording and writing, dylan/springsteen ish voice, both slow and rock n roll songs; recording both vocal and acoustic or electric at same time in a small room, mic wanted for vocals only).

I know the basic difference between condensers and dynamics, and am guessin a condenser is better for me, because I want to basically hear my voice back as close as possible to the quality of how it actually sounds - ie. with all the character and depth of my voice. Although added colour is fine too as long as quality isnt lost.

What do you make of what the shop guys said Nathan, what should I do!?

[Ruphus]

I want to basically hear my voice back as close as possible to the quality of how it actually sounds

Check out a DACS pre ( maybe used?) too. Since I heard their Clarity pre I´m a fan of that company. If they have a less expensive 1 or 2 channel model ( dunno ) it might not be exactly like the Clarity which is transparent and immediate as can be, but could still be a great option if only close to the bigger brother.

Just my 2cents.

Ruphus

[NathanEldred]

Originally posted by sach16


What do you make of what the shop guys said Nathan, what should I do!?

All you can do is use your ears. The ADK TC is a fine mic, but the problem is that it has a lot of information in the above 2K range. Does this suit your voice? Do the sales guys at the store even care if it does or doesn't? The gentleman (term used loosely) saying that a dynamic loses quality is utter bullshit though. Maybe they don't have as perceived detail as a condenser, but they do other things well that a condenser can't achieve. We don't even sell Shure or Beyer, but my gut instinct is that it may just be the ticket (at least from recording a handful of guys that sound like you are describing yourself as being), and it's definitely more than worth a try. I think Dylan used either 47's or 67's (or both), neither istoo prone to sibilance (ironically the 47 is more prone to it IMO), the 67 being a bit airier in general than the 47. Both are 3-6x's out of your budget.

Finding the mic that is right for you is a long and subjective path. I just know from experience that when funds are limited, usually a decent dynamic with a good mic preamp is better than a cheaper condenser with an 'average' mic preamp. And have you now expanded your budget? The ADK CE edition alone blows it for you even if they choose to give it away.

[sach160]

again many thanks 4 postin nathan!

i dont know if the adk suits my voice or not when recordin, all i tried was talkin and singin a few notes in an SE LDC, and through headphones, it sounded richer and fuller with much more detail than the sm57.

But thats comparing a £300 mic to a £100 one, and with a £100 mic obviously i could afford a better preamp, whereas i just got to test these through a behringer mixer.

So ya stick firm to ya advice that a sm7 and great river pre, would prob be better than maybe goin 50/50, on a chinese LDC and a decent pre?

by the way i've seen a mid-90s u87 (v god condition i'm told) for £800. I could afford this and a cheap pre, maybe upgrade pre later. What dya think of this? Also seen 2nd hand a 441 for 160 quid, a 421 for 140 quid, and SM7 for £150.

Sorry for all the questions, and i really really appreciate your help!

(oh and the ADK CE is £700 so is in my budge of 700-1000, as long as i got a budget pre.)

[tINY]

I'd stay away from those large diaphram mics if you are going live (instrument and vocal) to disk in a small room.

You'll do well to get a hyper- or super-cardioid mic, possibly with a bass roll-off to lessen the proximity effect. That way you can get up close on the mic and avoid the other sound in the vocal track (or get less of it anyway).

Past that, it's a matter of taste. Do you have a way to rent mics for a week to try them?


-tINY

[sach160]

Hey tiny, thanks 4 postin man.

I usually rec ord vocals and acoustic together (acoustic through the k&K trinity pickup its fitted with), and record them onto 1 track. So I dont know if it makes much difference whether or not the mic picks up some of the acoustic guitar, as long as its picking up a fair amount more vocal.

Am i right on this?

I'll try and see if there's somewhere i can rent, thats a good idea for sure!

[StuartMac]

If you're in the UK pick up a DACS Clarity - it's a fabulous pre for about a grand.

www.dacs-audio.com

[atticus]

If I were in that position I would try to swing a used Beyer M500 and a Speck Mic Pre 5.0. In my opinion it is a killer combo and very versatile. Good luck!

[tripnek]

You can't beat this one for the money. Two channels discrete transformer balanced preamp with EQ for less than $1000 US. If you can't find one where you are I would be willing to entertain the idea of shipping internationally although I have not tried it before.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...e=STRK:MESE:IT

[tINY]

That's right. If the guitar and main vocal are going onto the same track, isolation isn't much of an issue. You may consider the multipath / phase cancellations of getting the guitar on tape with two transducers. Then again, you might like the effect if everything ends up right.

I don't understand why you would record vox and GTR straight to the same track though. You forever lock the relative loudness of the two parts together - if you want more guitar, you get more vocal and vice versa and verse vicea, yada yada....


-tINY

[Rusty Cage]

I went shopping for an SM-7 a couple of months ago and a sales assistant tried to sell me a Shure condensor. Not that there's anything wrong with them, it just wasn't what I was after. It turned out the guy had never heard of the SM-7 which in my opinion means the guy was not qualified to recommend any mic.

Some of these sales guys are apparently as clueless as the project studio owners they sell to.

Given a budget constraint, I would go for a quality dynamic over a budget condensor any day. However the SM-7 may not be the right mic for everyone. Although it was good enough for "Thriller"...

[jabney]

There've been some good suggestions here. Take a Great River MP2NV and a Shure Unidyne III sounds great through it. If you absolutely must have a condensor mic' and you like the sound of an SM 7, try the Audix CX211. Good luck finding one, though.

Whatever you do, don't buy an EV RE16. It will give you cooties because it never was that expensive - even brand new. I am willing to help any of you who may have one, by taking it off your hands at no charge. I will even pay for shipping - as long as it is reasonable :-).

[sach160]

Hey all, with ya wonderful help, I've decided to get 1 of these 3 preamps:

Great River MP-1NV approx £750 (cant buy these in UK! tax&shippin from US)
Focusrite Green Dual £250
FMR RNP £400

and then I'll rent a few mics (condenser and dynamic) to find the right one for me. (if i get the focusrite i could afford a used neumann u87 p48 i've seen for £800)

I've been told the Great River has a coloured sound, which although would make my demo recordings better, since I also use recording for writing and rehearsing for live work, it would perhaps make vocals sound unrealistically good, to what I can achieve live (am i right about this?). Thats why I'm considering the focusrite green too (apparently very clear according to http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997...itefeb97.html, and great value 2nd hand). Lastly there's the FMR RNP, but I'm guessing that the focusrite is of higher quality, judging by retail price. But I dont know.

What I'd love to know, if anyone's tried the great river and either of the others, if there's any significant difference in quality, or if we're talking small changes here.

So which option should I go for?! Any advice guys?