Piano Tuning

[rr1073]

I own and operate a commercial recording studio. We have a Yamaha C7 grand piano for our clients use. My question is about tuning it for individual sessions. How do you other studio owners deal with this? We have developed a policy in that we tune it every 6 weeks and if people wish to use the piano they can schedule their sessions around a tuning, or take their chances regarding how much it has been played and how out of tune it is. Other than that we charge a fee (just pass through the tuners fee) to have it tuned for an individual session. I have had some clients complain about being charged for this, but if they are only booking a few hours at our hourly rate ($65/hr) and I spend $60 or $70 to have the piano tuned I am not really making any money. We encourage clients to schedule around the tunings, and if the client is really serious about having a tuned piano for their session they usually don't mind the added expense. But some clients just don't understand this and think we are 'hard to get along with'. Sometimes a person only wants an hour or two and there is no way I can pay to have it tuned and maintain any profit margin
Any suggestions???

[phil debol]

It is standard practice in the LA, NY, and Nashville studios that the piano is tuned every day before the session. At least all the studios I've been in. This includes back to back days. Sometimes, a note will go out and the tuner will be called back in during the session to touch it up. Some studios include the tuning in the rate, while others tack it on the bill.

[Cornvalley]

Tuning touch ups are not all that difficult and can extend your regulation tuning for months and months if your studio is controlled for humidity. Get yourself a tuning hammer and a few rubber mutes. You don't even need a tuner. Work with the octaves finding ones that go out first after the regulation tuning. Usually one of the 'outside' pair of unison strings will start 'beating' out of tune. (I just play the each actual string for that note with my fingernail with the damper up, listen carefully. Then damper down, repeat for that note or move on.) Work the beats back to uni with the tuning hammer while muting the other outside unison. That's about it. Soon you will have it down to a quick routine every other day. And, when a session is proceeding it's always a cool move to go out and do your own touch ups right there when you need it. So.....start practicing!

[rr1073]

Phil:
We are not in a major market like NY, LA etc. More like a tertiary market. (Albany, NY) We don't need to tune it every day as it is not being used on a daily basis. What we are trying to do is to come up with some solution that works for everyone. Maybe that's the problem...I'm not sure there is one. It seems that when I try to tack it onto the bill...that's when people get upset. Maybe I should have a different rate for sessions that use the piano to cover tunings. But then people may be upset that they are getting charged a higher rate than someone else.

Cornvalley:
We do that now. The issue with that is that now we (personally - not via the tuner) become responsible for the tuning of the piano. That works fine for quick touch-ups, but we are not piano tuners nor do we want to be. I'm talking more about full tunings -like after the piano has been played for a few sessions.

[LTA]

Originally posted by Cornvalley
Work the beats back to uni with the tuning hammer while muting the other outside unison.

Every pro piano tuner i've had the opportunity to speak with has clearly stated they aren't trying to get the unisons to be perfectly in-tune with each other. They are trying to get it to beat at a very slow but very finite rate. At first, i didn't believe it, but one tuner took the time to retune an octave and a half of unisons to be in "perfect" tune, and the piano did in fact sound very thin.

Even octaves are supposed to beat. The process of arriving at stretch tuning was fascinating. I let the guy who spent the time demonstrating this attempt to tune a 6 string guitar with a fixed bridge, and he gave up frustrated. Had something to do with the intervals between the frets and the nut. Funny part was, the guitar was as perfectly intonated as possible. Anywho....

My personal opinion is that, if get your piano tuned at least every season, it is okay to charge the client for a tuning UNLESS you incorporate it into your studio hourly rate from the getgo. Nothing is free, but everybody expects it to not cost even a penny. If they can't wait to schedule it around your tuning schedule, it is a rush job Don't gouge, but don't give free rides either.

[Killahurts]

We have a DC7 (Disklavier) here, and it is also my personal piano - I keep it very well maintained. For clients, tunining and voicing of the piano before every session is not optional, even if it's one song. My piano tech costs $110, and is worth every penny. The reason it's not optional is simple - you cannot fix an audio recording of an out of tune piano, or even one note that doesn't sound quite right for whatever reason. Anyone who is not willing to pay to have the instrument in top form for their performance is not someone I want to record anyway, and I'm willing to escort their money and their attitude to the door. How's that for artistic snobbery?

Mediocrity be damned.

That said, the Damp-chaser system I installed last year...

http://www.dampp-chaser.com/

...is one of the best $500 investments I've ever made. It has already paid for itself in general maintainance and tuning in just a few months. In the winter especially, I've seen it go from 50% humidity to 20% in just a few minutes when the heaters come on. The piano would try to tear itself apart when this happens, but the Damp-chaser prevents it.

[Cornvalley]

Every pro piano tuner i've had the opportunity to speak with has clearly stated they aren't trying to get the unisons to be perfectly in-tune with each other. They are trying to get it to beat at a very slow but very finite rate. At first, i didn't believe it, but one tuner took the time to retune an octave and a half of unisons to be in "perfect" tune, and the piano did in fact sound very thin.

Even octaves are supposed to beat. The process of arriving at stretch tuning was fascinating. I let the guy who spent the time demonstrating this attempt to tune a 6 string guitar with a fixed bridge, and he gave up frustrated. Had something to do with the intervals between the frets and the nut. Funny part was, the guitar was as perfectly intonated as possible. Anywho....

LTA,
Yes I believe that is true. I was reffering to the the sympathetic notes adjacent to the the middle string. I believe those are to be in unison. Stretch tuning is what you are alluding to with regards to the piano as well. That's what the regulation tuning is for. I'm just knocking the individual notes back into shape and addressing the problem presented when I hear it. And it is about hearing, ultimately
As for the guitar, it's impossible to tune!!!
Buzz Feiten has a nice system of guitar intonation which remedies somewhat the irregularities but must be performed by a skilled tech on each individual instrument. I've had a couple of guitars done this way.

[rr1073]

LTA:
That's why we hire a professional piano tuner. Good advise...that's what we're trying to do...but I guess it's impossible to please everyone.

Killahurts:
We have a damp chaser system installed on the piano. I agree - it is wonderful. I do tend to agree with you regarding not wanting to work with someone like that. We consistently work to define that fine line...

[LTA]

Originally posted by Cornvalley
LTA,
Yes I believe that is true. I was reffering to the the sympathetic notes adjacent to the the middle string. I believe those are to be in unison.

In that statement, i was referring to the single note that has 2 or 3 strings. The hammer hits all of them, so they aren't really sympathetic strings. The period of the beats was more than a few seconds, but he was consciously making it happen. It was probably only a portion of a cent difference, but he got the "sharp" string to beat against the middle string as quickly as the "flat" string did, on a single key. As an unexact example, A5 (which i'm pretty sure is an unwrapped trio) might have a "target" pitch of 882 Hz from the stretch tuning. Just guessing, the pitches of the 3 strings might end up being 882, 881.9, and 882.1. Each "mistuned" string would beat at about .1 Hz against the center frequency. Tune the string till the period of the beating is about 10 seconds. I'm not a piano tuner, and the above is just for the sake of illustration.

Also, i believe "regulation" refers to the action of the keys. While regulating a piano, the action is slid out of the piano, and everything gets tweaked to be even from key to key. I think it may even involve the sanding of the hammer felts to soften them up and to control how the hammer hits the strings (although that may be a separate process).

[Cornvalley]

Yes you are right, I'm talking off the top of my head and forget the terms involved. I should check my words more carefully. Also I appreciate the answer with regards to the tuning of those 'unisons'. While it certainly can get that involved I still maintain one can work with a hammer and keep a piano in good shape for non critical sessions. That's what I do. That said, I'm going to study up on this and hopefully increase my abilities. Thanks for the correct info.

[rr1073]

We're getting a little off the topic of my original question. Still wondering how other studios/owners handle the tuning of their pianos for sessions.
Thanks...

[doug_hti]

I would NOT EXPECT to pop into a good room, with a good C7, with good recording equipment, and have a perfectly tuned piano all the time @ $65/hour.
You are not out of your mind in any way shape or form wanting to recoup the non-standard tuning fees.
If you take advantage of it and try to ride them, then that may be a problem. But I think 4-6 weeks is very fair.

However, it sounds as though you need to get creative on your pricing packages that involve a "tuned" piano. Some (maybe a lot) of clients don't like to be charged for the extra things. for example when studios charge $3-5 for a cd mix ref disk, I find that a bit ridiculous...unless they are asking for a stack of them.
But try to create a package price, and if they buy a day lock out, then give them free tuning. You just have to make them FEEL like they are actually getting a good deal (like they really are).

Best of luck

[rr1073]

Thanks, Doug. I do feel that we meet those criteria. And - I think you may be right. This particular client saw it as a separate charge and that may be why he had a problem. I like your idea of maybe including the tuning with a minimum of hours booked (like 6 or 8) or something like that.
I'm starting to feel a little better about this...

[dave-G]

Whenever I book sessions with piano, I always notify the client to expect the charge for a tuning each day we're in there. A freshly tuned piano always sounds better, IMO, and is easier to make edits on (if tuning slips even a little over 6-8 hours of heavy use, the differences can be pretty stark when chopped together)

As an aside, has anyone ever met a professional piano tuner that wasn't exceedingly weird?

-dave

[rr1073]

Dave:
Do you mark up the tunings or just pass them through? Also...do you ever have clients question you as to why they have to pay for the tuning and it's not included?

[dave-G]

Originally posted by rr1073
Dave:
Do you mark up the tunings or just pass them through?

When possible, I have the client pay the tuner directly. If the studio we're working in insists on handling the transaction or marks up, I try to negotiate for zero or minimal mark up, since we'll be leaving them with a pretty well tuned piano when we're done.

Also...do you ever have clients question you as to why they have to pay for the tuning and it's not included?

Not that I can recall. Most are savvy enough about the instrument that they understand or share my (and the producer's) feeling that daily tunings are important in piano-centric tracking sessions, and they "get" that this will cost something.

-dave

[Tousana]

I work at a studio in Chicago, and we used to tune the piano free of charge. But that was in the hay day of recording many commericals which we do less and less these days. At that time we had three rooms going five days a week and Album work evenings and weekends. We now have only two rooms with pianos,a Steinway and a Bosendorfer. We keep them tuned but not like in the past when we did it at least once a week for each piano. Now its like every six weeks or so or as needed for the client, which they have to pay for or take their chances that it was tuned recently. We don't recomend this if they really care about what they are doing. Alot of this has come about because there are not as many people playing these days. Why do we do this? Do the math,two pianos at $50 to $100 per tuning once a week. Dosen't make sense to do it like we used to do. Also piano tuning is an art and not to be messed with by someone without the experience, because you can really fuk things up. tutt

[Cornvalley]

Also piano tuning is an art and not to be messed with by someone without the experience, because you can really fuk things up.

And where do you suppose experience tuning a piano is gathered from?

[LTA]

Originally posted by Cornvalley
And where do you suppose experience tuning a piano is gathered from?

Tuning somebody else's piano

I think it is kind of an apprentice/journeyman approach to the trade. Every tuner i've talked to also seemed to be well-versed in the history of pianos, in addition to being good players. I can only guess they have degrees related to the instrument. Alot of them sign the insides of pianos, along with dates, when they do anything major. My parents have a mid-30s kimball baby grand, and their current tuner actually did research into who had worked on it, as he recognized some of the initials. I bet they have a secret handshake too.

I've always been tempted to try out tuning on one of the many clapped out uprights people have in their houses, as many haven't been touched in decades. Unfortunately, i remember a bad experience i had with an autoharp when i was 14.

I think, if you have the nerve, you can touch up the tunings. But, like a chainsaw chain, you can only sharpen it by hand with a file so many times before you have to take it to the shop and have it sharpened professionally.

[Cornvalley]

I think, if you have the nerve, you can touch up the tunings. But, like a chainsaw chain, you can only sharpen it by hand with a file so many times before you have to take it to the shop and have it sharpened professionally.

Well said, and that is exactly how I approach it.

Unfortunately, i remember a bad experience i had with an autoharp when i was 14

That's a lasting impression I'm sure. I've tuned (mostly successfully!) stringed instruments for about 40 years so my confidence level might be a little more positive.
Sorry to go afield from the thread, but I did learn something here, thanks.

[paulieg]

Hi there. Iam a piano tuner. I can answer some questions. 1. Humidity or the lack of it is a problem for pianos. In a dry climate we use humidifiers to add moisture to the piano mostly the sound board. 40 percent inside the piano is what they want . Keeping it regulated at that level is the key. In a humid situation heating element rods are used to remove the humidity again to 40 percent. The sound board is made of spruce like a big guitar top. Spruce is very porus wood and absorbs moisture quickly when it does it expands the piano bridges are hard rock maple which are glued to the soundboard. When the board expands or contracts the bridges move also which throws the piano out of tune. 2. Tuning - unisins are always tuned beatless, no audible waves.The temperament is your middle 12 notes,. tThis is where it gets complicated. Octave in the middle temp is tuned beatless. 5ths beat the slowest-about 3-5 beats every 5sec- 4ths are faster but not by much- 3rd are paster but not by much- 5th -4th- and 3rds are stagered meaning above 0 or below 0 depending on the root note and the note to be tuned. Actually it was beethoven who came up with the temperament tuning. You see if you tune everything without any beats chords will be out of tune, so a pleasing compromise had to be found. That why even guitars can not be tuned perfectly . This is called inharmonisity!
Hope this helps some Paulieg

[Cornvalley]

Thanks paulig....so a question arises for me about this touch up process in between my professional tunings. I thought I could get the individual notes back in tune by getting the adjacent strings beatless to the middle string. LTA reffered to the adjacent strings beating slighty sharp on one side and slightly flat on the other. Is that correct? Would I be wise to invest in a strobe display to get the accuracy that description implies?

[LTA]

Originally posted by paulieg
Hi there. Iam a piano tuner. I can answer some questions.
Hope this helps some Paulieg

Awesome, thanks. *Goes and alters the book of knowledge* Funny how time corrupts the memory of things one doesn't understand at the time.

So, 40% relative humidity is my new official ideal humidity. Is there an ideal room temperature too? Something more specific than 70-85 degrees F? 77?

[Roland]

My father was a piano tuner and as Paulieg say's unisons should be tunned beatless. If you have beats in the unisons the piano will not sing and will sound "thin". Again as Paulieg mentions the scale has to be carefully tempered and tunnings on different piano's vary. A friend of mine for whom my father used to tune had always had problems with a dull sounding octave, my father cured this by pulling it marginally sharp. We are not talking sharp so that it sounded out of tune, just fractionally beat sharp. No two piano's are quite the same.


Regards


Roland

[paulieg]

Hi Guys, As far as the temp in the room goes. The piano respond to humidity more than the actual temp. It would be more a matter of personal comfort , I like my studio to be cooler 75 at the warmest, especially my control room where its always warmer because of equipement. All pianos are different. The thing is the shorter the strings are the harder it is to hear the beats because the sound dissipates in the air faster. Tuning a 9ft concert grand is always easier to get mopre precise because of the long strings. Also the actual string scale the piano is designed with makes a big difference. Similiar to different guitar string gauges and the bridge intonation effectes tuning.
Paulieg

[rr1073]

Getting back to the original question...

Tousana:
That sounds like about where we are now. We tune every 6 weeks and encourage clients to schedule around the tunings. Other than that we pass through the cost of having the piano tuned. It's amazing how many people tell us they don't care if the piano is tuned or not (after we have STRONGLY recommended they have it tuned) before their session, and then complain that it is out of tune after the session is over! That is definitely something you cannot really fix.

[Stizz]

If they book at least 4 hours, we will include the piano tuning fee.
Otherwise they have the option of paying for it (no markup), or taking their chances.

[Ted Nightshade]

Beatless unisons! Believe it! Only, there's that dirty little secret of piano tuning, what nobody wants to be aware of... false beats. I've been told there's no piano in the world without them, usually at the register break just south of where the dampers end. I've searched and searched to find a piano without false beats, no luck.

False beats means that a string will beat all by itself! Clever tuners, and god bless 'em, will be able to come up with tricky tuning compromises within the unison to bring the beating down as far as possible, but often, it's impossible to kill.

With really live bright pianos, it's a lot more obvious.

I have had a lot of work done to reduce the false beats in my old piano, and man it sounds SO much better. We reglued a lot of bridge pins- my tuner says she's gone through new pianos and reglued (or glued for the first time) ALL the bridge pins, false beat nightmares.

You will be happier if you never notice these things, and most people don't- hope I don't spoil anyone's breakfast.

Dave G, piano tuners seem to be philosophers- I had one tell me the piano was "the bank of truth". They are in fact so eccentric that I thought a long time about becoming one! And I do touch-up tuning in my own piano- there's a knack to getting the strings to stay put that I am only slowly developing... but the prospect of tuning cheap crummy pianos... my tuner comes to me with horror stories, and plenty of 'em!

I have the piano tuned every session and have a tuner on call if at all possible. My piano does not have the most stable tuning though, and the player is brutal.

[Cornvalley]

They are in fact so eccentric that I thought a long time about becoming one

That's funny. You'd be right at home with all that.
My tuner guy loves to talk and I have to be careful not to get him talking too early in the tuning process or else the piano starts to go out before he's around to finishing (just kidding).

[LTA]

Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
False beats means that a string will beat all by itself! Clever tuners, and god bless 'em, will be able to come up with tricky tuning compromises within the unison to bring the beating down as far as possible, but often, it's impossible to kill.

False beats? I know guitars, basses, dulcimers, etc will do this, and i figured it was the interaction between the string and the body of the instrument.

Does that explain why an F#(4) tends to sound completely different from any other note, regardless of piano?