Grand Piano: Petrof PII or Kawai RX-6

[Christof]

A school will be buying a grand piano for use in their auditorium and recording. There are two choices:
- Kawai RX-6 (212cm)
- Petrof PII (236cm)

Playing and listening bot pianos this is what I think about them:

The Kawai RX-6 responds very good to the dynamic playing. A soft touch will give a soft sound and a hard one gives much more overtones - it really "bites". The attack-phase of the sound can be shaped quite sensitive. The release phase is not very long. The characteristic reminds me of a guitar-string.
I do like the low octaves. They sound firm and deep.
The overall sound is on the quick and brite side, clean and maybe a little bit thin. The high register has been very hard on this grand, but it could be voiced to get rid of this harshness - but some of it will probably still remain.

I think this grand would probably be recognised within a dense Big-Band arrangement. But on its own it would probably not sound too impressive.

The Petrof PII has been impressive right away. It has a very rich sound. Even a single note has this character.
The piano has been voiced very good and retains it's rich and warm sound through all octaves ("romantic"). Playing this soft is just a great experience. The notes do not sound sharp whatever you do - the attack-phase reminds me of a bell. But I miss some of the dynamic reaction the Kawai has. The Petrof won't "bite". The release-phase is very smooth, strong and long. It will "fill" the hall much easier than the Kawai if it's played solo - but I'm not sure that it will "cut through" a dense Big-Band-Arrangement.

The auditorium is a semicircle (about 15m radius), the ceiling is rising from about 5m to about 8m and made of iron sheets. The walls are concrete and the back wall is mostly glass (windows). The sound is on the hard side, but if the audience is in there, it's much better.

The grand piano will be used for the BigBand, accomp. of a choir, solo-pieces (classical) and recording (they've got a small studio next-door).

What would be your thoughts, recommendations...?

[Midiguy]

Is Yamaha not an option? Just asking, because it sounds like something like a C7 would give you everything you want.

[Christof]

No, Yamaha won't be an option - I don't really like them.
But I just got an offer for a Seiler 242 grand - I will be playing that in a few hours.

[Luke_martin]

It´s hard to say without hearing the pianos side by side, but we have a Petrof I in the studio and we are very happy with it. Some of our clients prefer it over Steinways. Our is from 1976 wich, I was told, was very good year for Petrof and has been completely overhauled, so it´s in top notch condition. When I was shopping for the piano a had a chance to hear baby grand Kawai and was not impressed at all, it sounded shrill and boxy, the mechanics was pretty good though. -Luke

[passion4opera]

I totally agree that the sound of a Kawai is not as "round" as that of a Seiler. At some point I wanted to buy a Seiler myself, but didn't because of action issues (see below). Don't forget that the larger Petrof has better bass because of its length. I've never been too impressed with the Petrof sound. Kawai always had problems with too much tension on the higher descant octaves (that's why there is some harshness), although Kawai tried to correct some of that in the RX series.

You may also want to consider long term issues of your investment. Kawai will hold its value better than Petrof or Seiler. The action of a Kawai RX is much stronger built and more stable than that of a Petrof or Seiler grand piano. The Kawai will not require much regulation (less sensitive to heavy use, temperature and humidity changes). The school may not have the budget to pay for a technician on a regular basis (weekly or biweekly). In other words, you're far better off with a less regulated Kawai than with a Petrof or seiler, which will scream for regulation in order to keep a satisfying playing level (with no sticky keys, voicing problems, squeaking pedals, hammers out of control, etc).

Best of luck in your search!

[Christof]

Thanks for all of your comments so far.

I've been playing some more today. Here's what I've heard:

The Seiler (242cm - the biggest of all) has a much brighter sound than the Petrof, but it won't sound as smooth as the Kawai when playing very soft. It had been weighted quite heavy, but this could be adjusted. The lowest octave has been ringing heavy after the note has been played, I was told this could be managed too.

I think this piano could sound good, but in the room I listened to it and in the condition it stood there (right from the manufacturer without too much voicing done to it) it just sounded o.k. but not very appealing to me.
The price was good - about 50% more than the Schimmel 208T or the Kawai RX-6

The next grand I played had been a Steinway B (210cm - used one). This is out of budget (about 150% more than the Schimmel), but it had been voiced very nice and was just what I'd prefer. I had never been looking for a Steinway, as they are quite expensive and I don't care about "big names" - but this one was just right.

I also played a Schimmel 208T that had just beed coming in (used). It sounded quite good and reacted quite well to the dynamic playing. The overtones (especially in the discant) were bright, but not shrill.
It could be a good compromise - and its the cheapest of all options so far (nearly on par with the Kawai RX-6).

I did play the Kawai RX-6 and the Petrof PII once more and I'm still unsure. The Kawai feels familiar - maybe it's because I had been playing on Yamaha some time ago. I really do like the smoothness when you play really soft - no other grand did sound like this and when I did play it harder it got really bright. The area between the F and the f' sounded just as I liked it. But above this area it can get nasty and the discant had been quite shrill (could be voiced though).
If you play the Kawai very soft, it may be so gentle, that it could be too quiet for the room. And if you hit it harder the sound may be too bright.

The Petrof PII is a real concert grand. It does sound much louder without beeing bright and the notes will be present throughout a big room. It will never sound so soft as the Kawai and it will never sound so bright either. It could be voiced to make it sound brighter alltogether, but this wouldn't change the dynamic response probably. It would cost nearly 75% more than the Schimmel 208T or the Kawai.

[Christof]

Listening to some CDs I tried to find the sound I really like - and one of those CDs has been the soundtrack of "The Firm". Then I've been reading that Dave Grusin is using a Yamaha grand on those recordings. Well - maybe the one I played had been different or the room I played in was disturbing. But I will definately give Yamaha a second chance.

Some interesting comments from Dave Grusin concerning grand pianos (as found on Dave Grusin Archive):


He says, “I like a compromise between something I can dig into and something I can control,” elaborating, that because he doesn't play constantly, “there are pianos with hard actions that I love for their sound, but I can't play them for more than an hour without dying from exhaustion, from fighting back.”

In terms of sound, he explains, “in a record studio you're after something that's going to speak without eating up a whole lot of track or level, and it becomes a functional kind of thing. Usually a piano without quite as big a sound, but bright and punchy, seems to work better for records, unless it's a solo situation where you can really take advantage of the acoustic properties of the instrument.”

Dave Grusin believes he has had an excellent range of pianos to choose from on the Hollywood sound stages, and fascinatingly points out that these often are of better quality than the standard fare in the recording industry. He also discloses that, “there's an interesting aspect about the pianos in the Los Angeles studios.

“In every studio that I know, the hammers have been lacquered for a real bright sound. It seems to be universal as far as I can tell. There's no question that it's easier to record pop and rock and roll with these pianos, because you don't have to jam up the EQ to make the piano heard. But if you're trying to do any other kind of music, it's really kind of difficult."

Although he has ended up using a Yamaha grand as instrument of choice recently, Dave Grusin states that “over the years, most of the pianos I've enjoyed have turned out to be Steinways. There's a certain crisp quality in their midrange and top end that I like. Baldwins have this great bottom end.”


There's some good advice in those comments. I do like it quite bright - and this seems to work on most Pop/Rock recordings - but other kind of music will be hard to play on such a grand. According to that I'll probably go on searching for something like a compromise between the Petrofs rich an full sound and the (too) bright Yamaha / Kawai / Seiler. Maybe the Schimmel will be the way to go. I'm still not sure.

[passion4opera]

I think you should give Yamaha some consideration. Years ago, I had a very bad impression of Yamaha pianos as the only Yamahas that were at the conservatory were old and terrible. Fortunately, the Yamaha from the 80s is not the same anymore as the one of today...

Before moving to the US, I had a Kawai R1, which is the predecessor of the RX series. I liked the instrument in the beginning, it had a solid action and the sound was nicer than the GS series. Over the years however--at that time I practiced 3 to 6 hours a day--the sound became harsh and decay became shorter and shorter. Voicing could only solve the problem for a while (maybe a week...) before it was bad again.

Once in America, I bought a Yamaha C3 and after 9 years, the instrument still sounds like new, actually better, richer, with no mechanical problems at all. Of course, I have it maintained twice a year (which is actually not a whole lot considering that it's been played that much).

A few years ago a church with limited budget asked my advice what piano to buy under $20,000. I recommended looking into a lightly used Yamaha grand. Steinway was out of their budget and an older (smaller) instrument would be too fragile for their purpose. The German brands (Seiler, Schimmel, Ibach, etc.) may seem more impressive at first, but they do not hold up. The church found a 1-year old Yamaha C3, which they bought at a college sale. Even though the instrument is only 6'1" it fills the whole space. Yamaha grands project the sound big time!

Please stay away from Schimmel (all kinds of problems guaranteed over the course of years...).

[The Byre]

The Petrof! (Unless a Bosendorfer is around going cheap!)

It's a real piano from a traditional family piano building company, not a Japanese box-shifter, who puts all the money into marketing.